The Official Training Camp Thread (Warning, Post #310)

[Diogenes92]

Kenins-Cracknell-Dorsett would actually be a great 4th line.

Depends if Gaunce gets sent down or not.

 

[carolinacanuck]

the big wigs must really be grinding on this decision. i hope desjardins isn't allowed in the room when they discuss who stays and who goes.

 

[Diogenes92]

the big wigs must really be grinding on this decision. i hope desjardins isn't allowed in the room when they discuss who stays and who goes.

Based on his post game interview last night, he will certainly be part of the decision making process. Let's hope management can see what us fans see and cut Vey. He can be 1st line centre for the Comets and make $1million doing it.

 

[Scurr]

Kenins-Cracknell-Dorsett would actually be a great 4th line.

Depends if Gaunce gets sent down or not.

Gaunce outplayed Kenins by a wide margin this preseason imo.

 

[Diogenes92]

Gaunce outplayed Kenins by a wide margin this preseason imo.

Yep. Depends on Gaunce's status after the puck to the face. Its not the end of the world for me if Gaunce is sent down as the first call up. Kenins hasn't looked great so far, but he has proven in the past he can be an effective NHL'r.

 

[alternate]

Vey played well the last two games. I know anything short of 6 points won't be acknowledged on this board, but he's been part of probably a dozen good scoring chances as either the primary set up man or trigger man. Thought he really meshed well with Burrows and Hansen (especially Burrows) and if that group managed to play as well as they did vs EDM against actual NHL defense, production would come.

Still feel it's best long term for McCann to finish another year in junior. Feel another year of physically maturing before making the jump to the pros is in his best interest. Not sure which flip flop I'm enjoying more, the "do the Detroit model" to " daddy, I want all our prospects in noooowwwwww!", or "Benning is a moron for drafting McGarbageCann" to "Benning is a moron if he sends McCann't do anything wrong back to junior". Been a great preseason for McCann but another year in junior plus probably some games in the AHL is the right thing to do for his development.

Hutton is a tough one for me. My head says start him with Green in Utica, give him a call up or 2 and then at the deadline when we deal Hamhuis/Weber/Bart whoever, call him up to finish the regular season assuming his play warrants it. But he's played so well and brings exactly what our blueline needs. I probably l3an on sending him down to get some big minutes and be a key guy but boy is he exciting.

My lineup after watching all 6 games so far:
Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata (don't actually like this line, defenses take away the one-timer to Vrb and just collapse to the net, but whatevs)
Baertschi-Horvat-Virtannen
Burrows-Sutter-Hansen
Prust-Cracknell-Dorsett
Vey

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis- Bartkowski
Sbisa-Weber
Corrado

Leaves Higgins ir spot for some games for McCann/Hutton/Gaunce.

Overall this lineup serves youth while still competing for the playoffs. More youth served by call ups. Won't be this year but I still say the future looks bright.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Vey played well the last two games. I know anything short of 6 points won't be acknowledged on this board, but he's been part of probably a dozen good scoring chances as either the primary set up man or trigger man. Thought he really meshed well with Burrows and Hansen (especially Burrows) and if that group managed to play as well as they did vs EDM against actual NHL defense, production would come.

Still feel it's best long term for McCann to finish another year in junior. Feel another year of physically maturing before making the jump to the pros is in his best interest. Not sure which flip flop I'm enjoying more, the "do the Detroit model" to " daddy, I want all our prospects in noooowwwwww!", or "Benning is a moron for drafting McGarbageCann" to "Benning is a moron if he sends McCann't do anything wrong back to junior". Been a great preseason for McCann but another year in junior plus probably some games in the AHL is the right thing to do for his development.

Hutton is a tough one for me. My head says start him with Green in Utica, give him a call up or 2 and then at the deadline when we deal Hamhuis/Weber/Bart whoever, call him up to finish the regular season assuming his play warrants it. But he's played so well and brings exactly what our blueline needs. I probably l3an on sending him down to get some big minutes and be a key guy but boy is he exciting.

My lineup after watching all 6 games so far:
Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata (don't actually like this line, defenses take away the one-timer to Vrb and just collapse to the net, but whatevs)
Baertschi-Horvat-Virtannen
Burrows-Sutter-Hansen
Prust-Cracknell-Dorsett
Vey

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis- Bartkowski
Sbisa-Weber
Corrado

Leaves Higgins ir spot for some games for McCann/Hutton/Gaunce.

Overall this lineup serves youth while still competing for the playoffs. More youth served by call ups. Won't be this year but I still say the future looks bright.

Not bad.

I also like

Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata
Baertschi - Horvat - Virtannen
Burrows - Sutter - Hansen
Prust - Cracknell - Dorsett
Vey

Edler - Tanev
Hamhuis - Bartkowski
Sbisa - Biega
Hutton - Weber

 

[Huggy]

Sedins Vrbata
Kid line of the gods
Gaunce Sutter Burrows
Dorsett McCann Hansen
Prust

Vey Waived

 

[arsmaster*]

Not sure which flip flop I'm enjoying more, the "do the Detroit model" to " daddy, I want all our prospects in noooowwwwww!", or "Benning is a moron for drafting McGarbageCann" to "Benning is a moron if he sends McCann't do anything wrong back to junior". Been a great preseason for McCann but another year in junior plus probably some games in the AHL is the right thing to do for his development.

I don't think anyone is asking their daddy for all the prospects now. I think they're asking for players who are clearly as good if not better than there veteran contemporaries to be given a shot ie. Vey only looks good when other players are doing the job, McCann has looked better, faster, stronger, smarter every game. I mean, that is what management has told us they would do for 2 straight off seasons now....put your money where your mouth is.

You're silly little Mccan puns are just that.... silly, I'm pretty sure nobody has said any of those things and you're just trolling for some drama with some highly exaggerated stances.

McCann could certainly do with another year of junior, but he also looks better than Vey and has shown better than our big ticket off-season acquisition. He's earned the look for more, same with Gaunce. Not sure I could have said the same about Virtanen before last night happened though. Gaunce to me, is neither here nor there though. He's ready now, but could be even better after some top 6 forward time in Utica this season (maybe even at C).
------
Not agreeing with the draft pick doesn't mean people are hoping McCann fails, I personally had 3 or 4 guys ahead of him, but he's showing really well. I'm hoping he makes me eat crow for 15 years.
------

The thing about the Detroit model that people want is a great team that is so good there is no room at the NHL level for developing prospects. This team certainly doesn't have that. They have a bunch of veteran middle/bottom 6 talent with a 35 year old top line. There is plenty of room to develop prospects on this team. I hope we can get to a point where the team is so stacked at the NHL level we have to ripen our players on our own affiliate until they're ready to contribute full time.

But right now, we're not at that point, and the team definitely isn't winning cups with what we have....so saying that, I would definitely like to see the kids.

Watching that 1st line/kid line last night was probably the most enjoyable stretch of Canucks hockey since early 2012.

 

[alternate]

So basically you want your cake and to eat it to. #wishIwassurprised

 

[thepuckmonster]

I think if it comes down to it I would rather keep Jake up IF we keep him with Horvat and Sven. If that's not the plan then I would rather McCann.

I don't think we have all three of the kids up so Jake on a kids line and Hutton with Sbisa (which was actually passable to decent) would be enough to keep me happy.

 

[arsmaster*]

So basically you want your cake and to eat it to. #wishIwassurprised

If my cake is a contender every year with good prospects that aren't quite good enough to get on the team as teenagers, yup, dairy queen chocolate ice cream cake and I'll eat it for every meal.

Anywho, I thought I'd give you the courtesy of a well thought out reply, but hashtag replies are always good too.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Vey played well the last two games. I know anything short of 6 points won't be acknowledged on this board, but he's been part of probably a dozen good scoring chances as either the primary set up man or trigger man. Thought he really meshed well with Burrows and Hansen (especially Burrows) and if that group managed to play as well as they did vs EDM against actual NHL defense, production would come.

Still feel it's best long term for McCann to finish another year in junior. Feel another year of physically maturing before making the jump to the pros is in his best interest. Not sure which flip flop I'm enjoying more, the "do the Detroit model" to " daddy, I want all our prospects in noooowwwwww!", or "Benning is a moron for drafting McGarbageCann" to "Benning is a moron if he sends McCann't do anything wrong back to junior". Been a great preseason for McCann but another year in junior plus probably some games in the AHL is the right thing to do for his development.

Hutton is a tough one for me. My head says start him with Green in Utica, give him a call up or 2 and then at the deadline when we deal Hamhuis/Weber/Bart whoever, call him up to finish the regular season assuming his play warrants it. But he's played so well and brings exactly what our blueline needs. I probably l3an on sending him down to get some big minutes and be a key guy but boy is he exciting.

My lineup after watching all 6 games so far:
Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata (don't actually like this line, defenses take away the one-timer to Vrb and just collapse to the net, but whatevs)
Baertschi-Horvat-Virtannen
Burrows-Sutter-Hansen
Prust-Cracknell-Dorsett
Vey

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis- Bartkowski
Sbisa-Weber
Corrado

Leaves Higgins ir spot for some games for McCann/Hutton/Gaunce.

Overall this lineup serves youth while still competing for the playoffs. More youth served by call ups. Won't be this year but I still say the future looks bright.

Nobody is asking for the Canucks to play prospects who aren't ready. But what I expect is that if a prospect outplays a veteran that he will earn his spot on the team. We have seen Virtanen, McCann, Hutton, and even Gaunce earn their spots on the team by outplaying the likes of Vey, Prust, Kenins, and Corrado.

I hate when people say "oh well what's best for a player who's earned an NHL job is to go back to juniors and then go to the AHL." It's completely nonsensical. If a player is good enough to outplay NHL veterans and earn an NHL roster spot, then sending him back to junior or to the AHL "just because" makes zero sense whatsoever. I can't even fathom how someone can think that way.

Your fourth line of Prust-Cracknell-Dorsett is downright disgusting. It is reminiscent of the fourth line we had in 2011 that was terrible. But hey, it doesn't surprise me that some people would rather ice a worse team with comfy veterans than adding some exciting young prospects who are working their ***** off. Can't become dem Oilers eh?

 

[Ozone]

Not bad.

I also like

Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata
Burrows - Sutter - Hansen
Baertschi - Horvat - Virtanen
Prust - Cracknell - Dorsett
Vey

Edler - Tanev
Hamhuis - Bartkowski
Sbisa - Biega
Hutton - Weber

Just addressing the top 3 lines, I expect to see Sutter as the 'second line center'.

Fine, let him.

As long as we see that 'third line' stay together.

 

[VanJack]

the big wigs must really be grinding on this decision. i hope desjardins isn't allowed in the room when they discuss who stays and who goes.

Beginning to seriously wonder that if the Canucks really want to 'get younger' as Linden seems to claim, is Desjardins the best guy for the job?....seems to me that the young-ins have to be twice as good as a veteran before he'll reluctantly agree to play them....I'd be much happier with Travis Green or Glen Gulutzan behind the bench.

 

[RandV]

I don't think anyone is asking their daddy for all the prospects now. I think they're asking for players who are clearly as good if not better than there veteran contemporaries to be given a shot ie. Vey only looks good when other players are doing the job, McCann has looked better, faster, stronger, smarter every game. I mean, that is what management has told us they would do for 2 straight off seasons now....put your money where your mouth is.

The two key points here are that one Benning himself said that if kids earned it in camp they would make the team, and two it's players that Benning spent assets on and/or paid that are getting outplayed by these kids.

Benning is basically in a no-win situation here. If Vey/Prust/Sbisa are on the opening night roster and McCann/Guance/Hutton demoted, then it will be "but you said the kids could earn a spot!" If those guys are in the press box/waived and the kids are on the team, then it will be "why the **** did you acquire and/or signed him in the first place?

Rather than saying people are unfair though remember this is a mess of his own making. This is a good example of why you don't tie up big chunks of salary in poor assets.

 

[arsmaster*]

Nobody is asking for the Canucks to play prospects who aren't ready. But what I expect is that if a prospect outplays a veteran that he will earn his spot on the team. We have seen Virtanen, McCann, Hutton, and even Gaunce earn their spots on the team by outplaying the likes of Vey, Prust, Kenins, and Corrado.

I hate when people say "oh well what's best for a player who's earned an NHL job is to go back to juniors and then go to the AHL." It's completely nonsensical. If a player is good enough to outplay NHL veterans and earn an NHL roster spot, then sending him back to junior or to the AHL "just because" makes zero sense whatsoever. I can't even fathom how someone can think that way.

Your fourth line of Prust-Cracknell-Dorsett is downright disgusting. It is reminiscent of the fourth line we had in 2011 that was terrible. But hey, it doesn't surprise me that some people would rather ice a worse team with comfy veterans than adding some exciting young prospects who are working their ***** off. Can't become dem Oilers eh?

I don't agree with you on that 4th line at all, I think it has the makings of an excellent hard hitting 4th line, obviously I'd prefer Kenins or Gaunce ahead of Prust and maybe McCann in place of Cracknell, but I'd much rather see Cracknell there than Vey. That reclamation experiment has to end...he's an AHLer.

 

[polarbearcub]

Imagine the flexibility they would have with Hutton if they didn't sign sbisa to that joke of a contract

 

[Southern_Canuck]

I think in pre-season you look for that mysterious element... "hockey chemistry".

...and it is not always found where you might expect.

eg.
"Hey, Sutter is a shooter (21 goals last season) and Baertschi is a smart playmaker - they will definitely gel!"

Ah, no. Fizzle.

eg.
"The Sedins need a right-shooting right winger"

Ah, Burrows.

I hope that the Canucks brass tries Baertschi-Horvat-Virtanen out again for the final pre-season game because they showed "chemistry" which is sometimes hard to find. So when you do find it, you should take advantage of it.

Let's see what they look like for round 2!

S_C

 

[arsmaster*]

The two key points here are that one Benning himself said that if kids earned it in camp they would make the team, and two it's players that Benning spent assets on and/or paid that are getting outplayed by these kids.

Benning is basically in a no-win situation here. If Vey/Prust/Sbisa are on the opening night roster and McCann/Guance/Hutton demoted, then it will be "but you said the kids could earn a spot!" If those guys are in the press box/waived and the kids are on the team, then it will be "why the **** did you acquire and/or signed him in the first place?

Rather than saying people are unfair though remember this is a mess of his own making. This is a good example of why you don't tie up big chunks of salary in poor assets.

The thing is, I have 2 of those 3 Benning acquisitions in my lineup. Kenins can go down without risk and he hasn't grabbed the spot by the scruff like I had hoped, so boom....there is another spot.

I hate Sbisa, but he wasn't bad last night, and I know he's not going anywhere, but Corrado is young and he hasn't earned this spot, much like Kenins and Vey. I expect Corrado and Vey would make it to Utica.

My Lineups been posted but I'll do it here again:

Twins-Vrbata
Baert-Bo-Virt
Burr-Sutter-Hansen
Prust-McCann/Cracknell-Dorsett
McCann/Cracknell

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis-Hutton
Sbisa-Bartkowski
Biega-Weber

(don't worry about the dmen order).

13 forwards, 8 dmen

Obviously, Prust is blocking Gaunce, and I think Gaunce or Kenins could play those minutes more effectively, but I think both will get games up here, and Gaunce will grow with top 6 time in Utica.

If McCann can't hack it after a couple regular season games, pat him on the butt and send him back to the Soo and call up Kenins, Gaunce or Vey.

I don't think it's all that complicated. Obviously it would be more entertaining if there was no such thing as Prust or Sbisa, but there is.

 

[alternate]

If my cake is a contender every year with good prospects that aren't quite good enough to get on the team as teenagers, yup, dairy queen chocolate ice cream cake and I'll eat it for every meal.

Anywho, I thought I'd give you the courtesy of a well thought out reply, but hashtag replies are always good too.

Hashtag replies are the future!

The catch 22 here is that to get the team that is a perennial contender you first have to develop your prospects correctly. Generally speaking, extra development time before the NHL + sprinkling them into the line up (rather than dumping them in en masse) + surrounding them with the right mix of veterans is the way IMO to build the type of team we all want.

Look at the core we just had, indisputably the most successful in franchise history. Only the Sedins were dumped into the NHL immediately, and there was plenty of discussion whether they should spend some time in the minors early in their career. Remember the outrage when Edler had spend extra time in the A? Or Hansen? Everyone saw at least some time, Bieksa, Kesler, Burrows, Tanev, Raymond, etc and it worked out well.

No need to rush prospects like McCann. The exception I make is for guys like Horvat and Virtannen when they're physically more mature than your typical teenager. To paraphrase what Robert Duvall says to Sean Penn in Colors lets walk down there and win them all.

 

[Vtownfan]

The thing is, I have 2 of those 3 Benning acquisitions in my lineup. Kenins can go down without risk and he hasn't grabbed the spot by the scruff like I had hoped, so boom....there is another spot.

I hate Sbisa, but he wasn't bad last night, and I know he's not going anywhere, but Corrado is young and he hasn't earned this spot, much like Kenins and Vey. I expect Corrado and Vey would make it to Utica.

My Lineups been posted but I'll do it here again:

Twins-Vrbata
Baert-Bo-Virt
Burr-Sutter-Hansen
Prust-McCann/Cracknell-Dorsett
McCann/Cracknell

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis-Hutton
Sbisa-Bartkowski
Biega-Weber

(don't worry about the dmen order).

13 forwards, 8 dmen

Obviously, Prust is blocking Gaunce, and I think Gaunce or Kenins could play those minutes more effectively, but I think both will get games up here, and Gaunce will grow with top 6 time in Utica.

If McCann can't hack it after a couple regular season games, pat him on the butt and send him back to the Soo and call up Kenins, Gaunce or Vey.

I don't think it's all that complicated. Obviously it would be more entertaining if there was no such thing as Prust or Sbisa, but there is.

The only problem I have with that lineup is having McCann between Prust and Dorsett. It was one thing to have Dorsett with Horvat last year, but both of them would not be a good thing for a young guy like McCann.

Swap Prust for Kenins or Gaunce and I'm for it or get him off the goon line completely. Put him between Burrows and Hansen and put Sutter with the facepuncher bookends.

Otherwise, I'm kinda ok with McCann going down to the Soo Greyhounds and playing #1C top line minutes and dominating that league.Maybe a #1C on the WJC team as well.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I don't agree with you on that 4th line at all, I think it has the makings of an excellent hard hitting 4th line, obviously I'd prefer Kenins or Gaunce ahead of Prust and maybe McCann in place of Cracknell, but I'd much rather see Cracknell there than Vey. That reclamation experiment has to end...he's an AHLer.

Dorsett is the only decent player on that line, and I believe his offense last year was pumped up a bit by Horvat.

Prust is slow and it's questionable if he's even an NHLer anymore. Cracknell isn't an NHL player. He too is slow and doesn't really offer us much of anything.

 

[arsmaster*]

Hashtag replies are the future!

The catch 22 here is that to get the team that is a perennial contender you first have to develop your prospects correctly. Generally speaking, extra development time before the NHL + sprinkling them into the line up (rather than dumping them in en masse) + surrounding them with the right mix of veterans is the way IMO to build the type of team we all want.

Look at the core we just had, indisputably the most successful in franchise history. Only the Sedins were dumped into the NHL immediately, and there was plenty of discussion whether they should spend some time in the minors early in their career. Remember the outrage when Edler had spend extra time in the A? Or Hansen? Everyone saw at least some time, Bieksa, Kesler, Burrows, Tanev, Raymond, etc and it worked out well.

No need to rush prospects like McCann. The exception I make is for guys like Horvat and Virtannen when they're physically more mature than your typical teenager. To paraphrase what Robert Duvall says to Sean Penn in Colors lets walk down there and win them all.

But I don't see a lot of guys dumping them in en masse.

Raymond spent 31 games in the AHL, Bieksa one full season, Kesler 33 games before becoming a full time NHLer (full season because of lockout), even Hansen a 9th round pick spent a little over a season down there.

Guys that are good don't spend a lot of time down there. Guys with pedigree and developed two way games make this jump quick, just as the physically mature guys.

It's funny because we agree, I know we do, but we're typing not ************ over a beer.

McCann isn't any weaker than a guy like Vey, Gaunce isn't pretty developed too.

It's not like I'm yearning for Guillaume Brisebois and Lukas Jasek here, I'm pushing for the guys who are pushing, that's it.

If they look out of place send them back, I don't think I'd stall there development because I'm scared of losing Linden Vey to the waiver wire. Fish or cut bait, he's an AHL player....I don't care for him and I don't think he helps this team, he would certainly help in Utica though, might make a prospect out of Shink or Jensen yet.