Advice: The Official "is it a penalty if...?" Thread

[leftwinger37]

My buddy told me about a weird call in his B league championship game:

With under two minutes left in the game and his team up by one, my buddy's teammate was digging the puck out of the corner, took a crosscheck to the back, and fell on the puck. From what I understand, the player was making an effort to get up, but was also protecting his face because the other team was poking at him with their sticks, trying to free up the puck. In a matter of about five to ten seconds of this struggle for the puck, he was whistled for a delay of game penalty.

Now, the puck was under him mind you; no closed hand on the puck. Immediately, there was protest due to the game situation (under two minutes left in a championship game). The general feeling was that the play should have blown dead and the faceoff should have been out of the zone. Apparently the ref was not real confident in the call and didn't want to talk about it or explain it. To add insult to injury, the other team scored on the ensuing power play and scored a flukey goal in OT to win the championship.

To my buddy's credit, he didn't blame the ref for the loss since a defensive breakdown led to the GWG, but his issue was more along the lines of "do you really have to make that call in that situation?" I can't say that I disagree with him.

 

[McCauleyChirps]

My buddy told me about a weird call in his B league championship game:

With under two minutes left in the game and his team up by one, my buddy's teammate was digging the puck out of the corner, took a crosscheck to the back, and fell on the puck. From what I understand, the player was making an effort to get up, but was also protecting his face because the other team was poking at him with their sticks, trying to free up the puck. In a matter of about five to ten seconds of this struggle for the puck, he was whistled for a delay of game penalty.

Now, the puck was under him mind you; no closed hand on the puck. Immediately, there was protest due to the game situation (under two minutes left in a championship game). The general feeling was that the play should have blown dead and the faceoff should have been out of the zone. Apparently the ref was not real confident in the call and didn't want to talk about it or explain it. To add insult to injury, the other team scored on the ensuing power play and scored a flukey goal in OT to win the championship.

To my buddy's credit, he didn't blame the ref for the loss since a defensive breakdown led to the GWG, but his issue was more along the lines of "do you really have to make that call in that situation?" I can't say that I disagree with him.

Bad call the way you explain it. If the player had ample time to get up or off the puck, I'd call that. For instance, if everyone was just standing around and waiting for him to get off the puck and there is no effort to stand up. I never call anything in the last 2 or even 5 minutes unless one of the following three situations occur:

1) The game is out of reach and need to make a game management call. I'll just throw them a double minor and get them off the ice.
2) Close game and a scoring opportunity is taken away for either team.
3) Any dangerous and/or blatant penalty.

 

[leftwinger37]

Bad call the way you explain it. If the player had ample time to get up or off the puck, I'd call that. For instance, if everyone was just standing around and waiting for him to get off the puck and there is no effort to stand up. I never call anything in the last 2 or even 5 minutes unless one of the following three situations occur:

1) The game is out of reach and need to make a game management call. I'll just throw them a double minor and get them off the ice.
2) Close game and a scoring opportunity is taken away for either team.
3) Any dangerous and/or blatant penalty.

I didn't see it go down, but it sounded pretty bogus to me. Then again, I only got one side of the story, so who knows?

I'm not the type of player that whines about bad calls/non-calls or harps on the officiating in general. It's not an easy job, nor an enviable one. That said, I've played in leagues with some pretty bad officiating. Most of the bad calls I have experienced are due to the officials not looking at the action in the context of the way the game has been played/called. My biggest pet-peeve is calling penalties in crunch time for something that has been let go all game long.

 

[Summer Rose]

I don't think that's even an excuse for a game management call the way you're describing it.

(a) A minor penalty for delay of game shall be assessed to a player other than the goalkeeper who deliberately falls on or gathers the puck into his body, deeming the puck unplayable and causing a stoppage of play.

Key word is bolded. I mean I didn't see the cross check your buddy's claiming but if it's not blatant I'd be tempted to let it go in a 1-goal championship game. You don't not call one thing and then call the other guy though. Let 'em play.

Re: faceoff location, I think even if he's the attacking player you don't bring the faceoff out of the zone. The puck became "unplayable" through technically the defending player's fault for causing him to fall down on the puck. Regardless, the puck becoming unplayable is regarded as nobody's "fault" as opposed to the puck going out of play. Relevant rules:

(d) If an attacking player shoots the puck directly out of play, onto the netting of the goal frame or if the puck deflects out of play off of an attacking player, the face-off will take place at the nearest neutral zone face-off spot.

 

[mbhhofr]

Re: faceoff location, I think even if he's the attacking player you don't bring the faceoff out of the zone. The puck became "unplayable" through technically the defending player's fault for causing him to fall down on the puck. Regardless, the puck becoming unplayable is regarded as nobody's "fault" as opposed to the puck going out of play. Relevant rules:

The attacking player falling on the puck in the defensive zone caused the stoppage, no matter how he got there. Faceoff is outside the defending zone.

 

[leftwinger37]

Re: faceoff location, I think even if he's the attacking player you don't bring the faceoff out of the zone. The puck became "unplayable" through technically the defending player's fault for causing him to fall down on the puck. Regardless, the puck becoming unplayable is regarded as nobody's "fault" as opposed to the puck going out of play. Relevant rules:

The attacking player falling on the puck in the defensive zone caused the stoppage, no matter how he got there. Faceoff is outside the defending zone.

It could really go either way depending on the official's perspective on the play. I think if they acknowledged the cross check but opted not to give a penalty, blowing the whistle on the dead puck and having the faceoff stay in the zone would be a sensible alternative.

However, if the ref did not see the cross check (which I am assuming they did not), did not deem it serious enough to call a penalty, or suspected that the player who was checked was embellishing, then blowing the play dead based on the result of the cross check rather than the cross check itself and moving the faceoff out of the zone, although not ideal, still makes more sense than issuing a penalty in this situation.

Either way, assuming everything went down the way my friend said it did, issuing a delay of game penalty is still a bit of a head-scratcher.

 

[osgoodshlatters]

Is it a penalty if the ref asks why you hit the puck towards center ice after a whistle from a delayed penalty and you tell him "because you didn't blow the whistle the first ****ing time i touched it"

Answer: Yes......unsportsmanlike conduct

 

[Meuracas]

We've got a couple of whiners on the team who upon every call that goes againts us start chirping at the ref, due to which I believe we have received a bad reputation among the refs (and rightly so) through the 2 years the team has been playing.

While I absolutely hate chirping and whining at the ref - I mean, apart from respecting the officials...has it ever changed a call? - in the very last games this season a certain refs agenda against us got to a pretty ridiculous level. Don't get me wrong, the majority of us are trying to get these guys understand they're not only hurting themselves but the team as a whole by whining, but it does not seem like they get the message.

Anyway, in one game our guy pins a guy against the wall behind the goal, robs the puck and is tripped by the guy who he pinned - at least seemingly. Ref blows the whistle and hands our guy an embellishment minor. I was on ice and did not see it - so I went to ask the ref politely what happened. He looks at me and says "Quit the antics, don't whine or you're outta here". Needless to say, I was pretty amazed at his reply but thought, OK - maybe he misunderstood me. "No, I mean...I did not see what happened, I thought he was tripped", I said - again, calmly - to which he replied by handing me a 10-minute penalty for conduct (match penalty). I just stared at him with my mouth open for a while, asked if "he was serious" and then left laughing to the dressing room since he did not even look back at me. Talked to him after the game when I saw him in the corridor and said "Sorry but I really did not understand what happened there" and he just said "you concentrate on playing".

Now I would have understood the penalty if I really was whining or talking to him in an offensive or inappropriate way, but that's not my style. It was the first period and the game was not chippy or anything at that point, but it sure went down that path after I was sent out.

I just don't see the point - maybe he was trying to send a message? Maybe there is something I don't see? Should I have just walked away and not asked why we got a penalty?

Either way, I do admit we have a problem with several chirpers/whiners on our team, but I don't think this helped the case at all - if anything, it provoked the whole team during that particular game.

End of rant.

 

[Summer Rose]

Is it a penalty if the ref asks why you hit the puck towards center ice after a whistle from a delayed penalty and you tell him "because you didn't blow the whistle the first ****ing time i touched it"

Answer: Yes......unsportsmanlike conduct

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: shooting the puck away is supposed to be a misconduct, you lucked out. Well, with a misconduct there's no power play against. Six of one, half a dozen of the other?

 

[osgoodshlatters]

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: shooting the puck away is supposed to be a misconduct, you lucked out. Well, with a misconduct there's no power play against. Six of one, half a dozen of the other?

it wasnt like it was shot hard across the ice. it was more of a pass from the boards towards center ice. The penalty was for the comment, not hitting the puck.

 

[Summer Rose]

it wasnt like it was shot hard across the ice. it was more of a pass from the boards towards center ice. The penalty was for the comment, not hitting the puck.

Fair enough.

He could have called the other one if he felt like being a jerk. Assuming this is adult league, I probably would have not called it just because, whatever. I've heard worse and not called it. Players can say what they want, calling them for unsportsmanlike is just hiding behind my stripes and can lead to even further frustration.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

I think you need to draw me a picture of what you're asking. Stick battles are generally fine, so long as what you're doing doesn't impede his ability to skate or otherwise restrain him. A stick press - where you hold your stick down over the other player's shaft - might get you in trouble if the other player loses his balance as he's skating away as a result of your pressure on his stick. And turning your blade over to hook the opponent's stick can be called hooking too. But two players alternately lifting each other's stick isn't going to draw my attention as a referee.

I'm not sure how to answer the OPs question, but as to the bolded, the only ref who would call that hooking is one who doesn't understand the rule. USA Hockey goes out its way to be clear that a stick press on the lower part of the stick, even with the blade turned over is exactly that - a stick press and not hooking.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

Is it a penalty if the ref asks why you hit the puck towards center ice after a whistle from a delayed penalty and you tell him "because you didn't blow the whistle the first ****ing time i touched it"

Answer: Yes......unsportsmanlike conduct

You sound like a man speaking from experience.

 

[MeHateHe]

I'm not sure how to answer the OPs question, but as to the bolded, the only ref who would call that hooking is one who doesn't understand the rule. USA Hockey goes out its way to be clear that a stick press on the lower part of the stick, even with the blade turned over is exactly that - a stick press and not hooking.

No, we've had lots of fairly high-level discussion about stick-on-stick obstruction. Hockey Canada's standard is pretty clear. If there's consequence - consequence includes not being able to receive a pass or being restrained from moving normally - you're at risk of being called. You can't restrain or obstruct a player with your stick.

It would be a rare call - I don't think I've ever made that call - but that's a call that could be made.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

No, we've had lots of fairly high-level discussion about stick-on-stick obstruction. Hockey Canada's standard is pretty clear. If there's consequence - consequence includes not being able to receive a pass or being restrained from moving normally - you're at risk of being called. You can't restrain or obstruct a player with your stick.

It would be a rare call - I don't think I've ever made that call - but that's a call that could be made.

I guess that's a difference between how Hockey Canada and USA Hockey are interpreting the rule. I'll remember that next time I play north of the border!

 

[Bondoao1]

Is this really a penalty under USA Hockey rules?

I went into the corner to get the puck facing the boards, shoulders square to the boards.
2 opposing players came in from my right and left at full stride.
As the 2 made simultaneous contact with me, I "braced" for impact by lowering my shoulders and bringing my hands up to chest height.
The 2 opposing players sandwiched me and then they both went down due to the force of the combined hit, and I was shaken but skated away with the puck where the whistle blew when I was 2 strides from the boards.

To my surprise I was assessed a roughing penalty.

 

[Summer Rose]

Is this really a penalty under USA Hockey rules?

I went into the corner to get the puck facing the boards, shoulders square to the boards.
2 opposing players came in from my right and left at full stride.
As the 2 made simultaneous contact with me, I "braced" for impact by lowering my shoulders and bringing my hands up to chest height.
The 2 opposing players sandwiched me and then they both went down due to the force of the combined hit, and I was shaken but skated away with the puck where the whistle blew when I was 2 strides from the boards.

To my surprise I was assessed a roughing penalty.

Thus plus them going down is pretty much why you were called. If you don't move your feet and let them run into your shoulder, an inexperienced ref might call you for checking but it shouldn't be any call whatsoever.

 

[FLYLine27*]

Is this really a penalty under USA Hockey rules?

I went into the corner to get the puck facing the boards, shoulders square to the boards.
2 opposing players came in from my right and left at full stride.
As the 2 made simultaneous contact with me, I "braced" for impact by lowering my shoulders and bringing my hands up to chest height.
The 2 opposing players sandwiched me and then they both went down due to the force of the combined hit, and I was shaken but skated away with the puck where the whistle blew when I was 2 strides from the boards.

To my surprise I was assessed a roughing penalty.

The way you described it, you did nothing wrong. Maybe the ref thought you got your hand up into their face?

 

[shoeshine boy]

it's hard to accurately picture it from your description but it's possible that getting your hands up high is what led to the penalty being called.
I once got my hands up to protect myself when I saw a player coming at me. the opposing player bounced off of me and fell down and I got called from cross checking even though there was absolutely NO EXTENSION on my part.
it's also possible that the ref didn't see the whole thing and just assumed that since you were the one that came out still on your feet that you must've initiated contact. refs get calls wrong. it happens.

a ref friend of mine liked to say, "When you play a prefect game then I'll ref a perfect game."

 

[SJGoalie32]

The way you described it, you did nothing wrong. Maybe the ref thought you got your hand up into their face?

it's hard to accurately picture it from your description but it's possible that getting your hands up high is what led to the penalty being called.
I once got my hands up to protect myself when I saw a player coming at me. the opposing player bounced off of me and fell down and I got called from cross checking even though there was absolutely NO EXTENSION on my part.
it's also possible that the ref didn't see the whole thing and just assumed that since you were the one that came out still on your feet that you must've initiated contact. refs get calls wrong. it happens.

Yup. I'll co-sign with both these.

The way you describe it, you did nothing wrong. Then again, the way I describe penalties against me, I almost never do anything wrong either.

There's two possibilities here.....

1) You actually DID do something wrong and you just don't remember the play accurately. Even if you didn't intend it this way, if in the act of protecting yourself you got your hands up in the guy's face or you moved your shoulder into contact the opponent's head, that could be a roughing call. Probably not a penalty if you only contacted his torso with your hands or arms, but if you leaned into him before the collision or your arms pushed/extended outward after it (a lean you might not remember making in the chaos of the moment), that could also be legitimately called a roughing.

2) The ref just made a cookie crumb call.....he saw an empty plate of cookies, saw you standing there with crumbs on your hands, and assumed it was you who ate them (because it looks like you did, whether you actually did or not). It's pretty common in physical collisions between two players that the ref calls the guy who DIDN'T fall over. Especially if the fallen player's head snapped back or something. This is most common with tripping calls when your stick is near the legs of a player who stumbles and falls to the ice. I've had that happen to me several times before. I know the guy fell on his own, the guy who fell probably knows he fell on his own, but any ref who is watching from 30 feet away just sees stick->legs->fall=>penalty. And there's nothing you can really do to argue it because you know that it totally looked like a penalty to any observer without benefit of slow-motion video replay.

a ref friend of mine liked to say, "When you play a prefect game then I'll ref a perfect game."

lol.....that basically explains half the calls in this thread.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

it wasnt like it was shot hard across the ice. it was more of a pass from the boards towards center ice. The penalty was for the comment, not hitting the puck.

Had one the other night, testy game, go to pickup the puck, end of third, tie game, so we have a shootout, buddy shoots away, tells me to go fetch, I tell him to go home, see him in a few weeks, game misconduct, no patience for that kind of idiocy, you are free to disagree with all of my calls, in a respectful manner.

 

[mbhhofr]

I was reffing a Minor Pro game and there was an offside. After the whistle, a Player shot the puck down to the far end of the ice just as the Linesman was bending to pick it up. I told the Linesman not to get it and told the Player to go get it or he would get ten minutes. Player skated down the ice and brought it back to the Linesman, while everyone in the building watched.

He had a choice.

 

[FLYLine27*]

I was reffing a Minor Pro game and there was an offside. After the whistle, a Player shot the puck down to the far end of the ice just as the Linesman was bending to pick it up. I told the Linesman not to get it and told the Player to go get it or he would get ten minutes. Player skated down the ice and brought it back to the Linesman, while everyone in the building watched.

He had a choice.

Should have given him the automatic misconduct and let him sit int he box. Guarantee he would never think to do that again. Especially at that level? Would never take that lack of respect.

 

[mbhhofr]

Should have given him the automatic misconduct and let him sit int he box. Guarantee he would never think to do that again. Especially at that level? Would never take that lack of respect.

When I received a memo from the Commissioner of the league, after the first two games of the season, telling me not to call the games so tight, that's the way I handled it. And it worked.

 

[MeHateHe]

Just in the hopes that this doesn't just become a thread where people come on to complain about a call they didn't think they deserved, let me say this:

There's a reason eyewitness testimony is unreliable in criminal courts. People under critical stress often are deceived by their own brains into believing something happened that did not happen. People have been able to describe - down to intricate details - experiences that have been shown to be completely unreal.

This carries over to the sports arena. Of course, it's not everyone, but I've had players adamant that they didn't do thing X that got them a penalty. A lot of times, they fully believe what they're telling me. And, frankly, it's why some people don't make good referees, because they get so caught up in the moment that they completely blank. I had a referee prepared to call a checking from behind penalty (plus game misconduct) and assess it to the player who got hit. It was the first time this official had been refereeing at that level, it was early in the game, and he reacted to a loud crash at the blue line. It was entirely the wrong call and I convinced him he was absolutely mistaken, but even at the end of the game, he was sure that's what he'd seen.

I think this thread can be a valuable way for players to ask dispassionately about rule interpretations for unusual incidents, or to ask about how the refereeing sausage is made, so to speak, but please let's not just devolve into another thread talking about how you didn't do anything and the referee just put you in the box.