Advice: The Official "is it a penalty if...?" Thread

[Fremitus Borealis]

Since these kind of things tend to be scattered around the various threads, I thought it might be helpful to have a specific spot for it. I'll go first.

Is it a penalty if... you use your leg to stick-lift a defensive player who's trying to lift your stick while you're attacking? I know you're allowed to hold off a guy with your free arm, provided you don't grab onto them... but what about with the leg? There've been quite a few times now where I'm cutting in on goal and get stick-lifted by one of the ringers on the opposing team right before I get my shot off. Last game I tried using a wider stance when cutting in to sort of have a leg in the way as they tried to steal the puck back, with mixed results. But what about if, say, I'm set up in the slot and the defenseman is lifting my stick; am I allowed to do anything other than lift his stick back with my own? Because obviously using mine effectively takes me out of the play.

Click to read more...

 

[MeHateHe]

I think you need to draw me a picture of what you're asking. Stick battles are generally fine, so long as what you're doing doesn't impede his ability to skate or otherwise restrain him. A stick press - where you hold your stick down over the other player's shaft - might get you in trouble if the other player loses his balance as he's skating away as a result of your pressure on his stick. And turning your blade over to hook the opponent's stick can be called hooking too. But two players alternately lifting each other's stick isn't going to draw my attention as a referee.

 

[FLYLine27*]

Since these kind of things tend to be scattered around the various threads, I thought it might be helpful to have a specific spot for it. I'll go first.

Is it a penalty if... you use your leg to stick-lift a defensive player who's trying to lift your stick while you're attacking? I know you're allowed to hold off a guy with your free arm, provided you don't grab onto them... but what about with the leg? There've been quite a few times now where I'm cutting in on goal and get stick-lifted by one of the ringers on the opposing team right before I get my shot off. Last game I tried using a wider stance when cutting in to sort of have a leg in the way as they tried to steal the puck back, with mixed results. But what about if, say, I'm set up in the slot and the defenseman is lifting my stick; am I allowed to do anything other than lift his stick back with my own? Because obviously using mine effectively takes me out of the play.

This is incredibly confusing. I don't understand how you use your leg to stick lift someone.

 

[Fremitus Borealis]

This is incredibly confusing. I don't understand how you use your leg to stick lift someone.

Okay, instead of describing an actual situation, I'll strip it down: can I kick someone's stick without getting 2 minutes?

 

[shoeshine boy]

Okay, instead of describing an actual situation, I'll strip it down: can I kick someone's stick without getting 2 minutes?

I suppose in theory yes but I wouldn't risk it. you could very easily end up with a match penalty for kicking if you make contact with the player.
we recently had a guy who was in a board battle with an opposing player and was given a match for kicking. at his hearing it was explained by everyone, even the opposing team that it was a board battle with players trying to kick the puck free and nothing more. the board ruled for time served but by that time the guy had missed 2 or 3 games. I don't know what the ref thought he saw but he clearly misread the situation. even so, I'd rather he call it and be wrong than to just let guys go around kicking people.

 

[Fremitus Borealis]

I suppose in theory yes but I wouldn't risk it. you could very easily end up with a match penalty for kicking if you make contact with the player.
we recently had a guy who was in a board battle with an opposing player and was given a match for kicking. at his hearing it was explained by everyone, even the opposing team that it was a board battle with players trying to kick the puck free and nothing more. the board ruled for time served but by that time the guy had missed 2 or 3 games. I don't know what the ref thought he saw but he clearly misread the situation. even so, I'd rather he call it and be wrong than to just let guys go around kicking people.

That's why I tried to carefully describe the scenario in the first post; I'm not talking about getting a head start and then hauling off and place-kicking at someone I'm talking just the equivalent of a quick stick lift, tapping someone's stick upwards real quick with your shinguard. Just like that could be a slash or hooking if you're not careful, I definitely see the fairness in getting whistled if you made contact with someone's leg with your skate. But what if it's just the stick. I've looked through the USA Hockey rulebook (it's good bedtime reading ), but I couldn't find anything specifically on this, which is why I asked.

 

[FLYLine27*]

That's why I tried to carefully describe the scenario in the first post; I'm not talking about getting a head start and then hauling off and place-kicking at someone I'm talking just the equivalent of a quick stick lift, tapping someone's stick upwards real quick with your shinguard. Just like that could be a slash or hooking if you're not careful, I definitely see the fairness in getting whistled if you made contact with someone's leg with your skate. But what if it's just the stick. I've looked through the USA Hockey rulebook (it's good bedtime reading ), but I couldn't find anything specifically on this, which is why I asked.

Sort answer, you can not.

Per the rules you can still get hit with a match penalty regardless if you make contact with his body or not for an attempted kick.

Rule 627
(b) A match penalty shall be assessed to any player or goalkeeper who kicks, attempts to kick or injures an opponent by kicking.

They don't want to lifting your skate blade up to try and kick a stick becasue bad things can happen, even by accident.

 

[MeHateHe]

Sort answer, you can not.

Per the rules you can still get hit with a match penalty regardless if you make contact with his body or not for an attempted kick.



They don't want to lifting your skate blade up to try and kick a stick becasue bad things can happen, even by accident.

I'm still not sure exactly what the OP has in mind, but if I saw a guy trying to lift an opponent's stick with his skate, I would never call that an attempted kick. The point of the rule against kicking is to keep guys from deliberately using their skates as weapons. It strikes me that the person most at risk of injury if a guy uses his foot to lift an opponent's skate up is the guy with ONE SKATE ON THE ICE. Also, if I was that player's coach, I'd hit him on the nose with a rolled up newspaper, because he's being a very bad dog.

Now, if the same player is using a leg to move an opponent's stick (you know, while keeping both blades on the ice), that's just a position battle. There's nothing in Hockey Canada's casebook that comes anywhere near this scenario, and a referee who makes that call is taking a lot of logic leaps that are in no way intended in the casebook.

 

[FLYLine27*]

I'm still not sure exactly what the OP has in mind, but if I saw a guy trying to lift an opponent's stick with his skate, I would never call that an attempted kick. The point of the rule against kicking is to keep guys from deliberately using their skates as weapons. It strikes me that the person most at risk of injury if a guy uses his foot to lift an opponent's skate up is the guy with ONE SKATE ON THE ICE. Also, if I was that player's coach, I'd hit him on the nose with a rolled up newspaper, because he's being a very bad dog.

Now, if the same player is using a leg to move an opponent's stick (you know, while keeping both blades on the ice), that's just a position battle. There's nothing in Hockey Canada's casebook that comes anywhere near this scenario, and a referee who makes that call is taking a lot of logic leaps that are in no way intended in the casebook.

I disagree.

The point of the rule is so you don't also use your skate to do stupid things as well... like trying to lift a stick up by kicking it which can easily, by accident, end up kicking someone.

And if you saw a guy, all game, running around and kicking his skate up toward players sticks/shin pads, you would think that is okay? You would probably warn him at first, asking what the hell he is doing, then penalize him if he continues. It is reckless and dangerous.

 

[Summer Rose]

As an official, there would be a variety of factors in what to call if anything. A minor motion of trying to use leg position to prevent the opponent from playing the puck, provided you're attempting to play the puck yourself, is fine. I suppose the determining factor would be whether the skate blade left the ice or not. Then, I would have to consider direction. Is your skate blade off the ice, but your leg is clearly not moving towards the opponent's body? That's fine too. However, none of this sounds like very good strategy, though as such, minor movements of the leg/skates in position battles would simply go unnoticed. A kicking motion towards an opposing player's body, regardless of intent, provided the skate blade leaves the ice, should be called as a match penalty for kicking.

 

[Fremitus Borealis]

As an official, there would be a variety of factors in what to call if anything. A minor motion of trying to use leg position to prevent the opponent from playing the puck, provided you're attempting to play the puck yourself, is fine. I suppose the determining factor would be whether the skate blade left the ice or not. Then, I would have to consider direction. Is your skate blade off the ice, but your leg is clearly not moving towards the opponent's body? That's fine too. However, none of this sounds like very good strategy, though as such, minor movements of the leg/skates in position battles would simply go unnoticed. A kicking motion towards an opposing player's body, regardless of intent, provided the skate blade leaves the ice, should be called as a match penalty for kicking.

Pretty much this.

 

[MeHateHe]

I disagree.

The point of the rule is so you don't also use your skate to do stupid things as well... like trying to lift a stick up by kicking it which can easily, by accident, end up kicking someone.

And if you saw a guy, all game, running around and kicking his skate up toward players sticks/shin pads, you would think that is okay? You would probably warn him at first, asking what the hell he is doing, then penalize him if he continues. It is reckless and dangerous.

When I teach clinics, I have a rule about what-ifs, and it's mostly for these kinds of situations. Players aren't running around kicking their skates up toward players. Why not? Because it's dumb. It's a terribly stupid way of doing anything. It accomplishes approximately nothing.

Players engage in reckless behaviour all the time. We don't penalize it unless it's pretty blatant - a guy swings his stick wildly, for example - or unless there are real consequences. In hockey, players who engage in reckless behaviour typically put themselves as much at risk - sometimes more - than anyone else on the ice, so you tend not to see it repeated a lot.

If I saw someone running around kicking his skate up at people, I'd probably question his sanity.

 

[MeHateHe]

Pretty much this.

How do you intend to play the puck with only one skate on the ice? I would rethink this entire plan.

 

[FLYLine27*]

Pretty much this.

What is this? Do you see NHL players doing what your talking about? If not, which you don't, don't you think there is a reason for that? Play hockey how it's suppose to. Asking if you can kick sticks in the air with your skate if really strange, and whether or not you have no intendions of kicking a player, if you did this..odd stratagy..enough, you are bound to kick someone. Then you will be enjoying a match penalty, or the other guy punching you in the face for acting like a jackass for kicking him. I sure as hell know if I was going into a corner with someone with the puck nearby, and he kicked my stick in the air, i'd probably drill him into the boards.

When I teach clinics, I have a rule about what-ifs, and it's mostly for these kinds of situations. Players aren't running around kicking their skates up toward players. Why not? Because it's dumb. It's a terribly stupid way of doing anything. It accomplishes approximately nothing.

Players engage in reckless behaviour all the time. We don't penalize it unless it's pretty blatant - a guy swings his stick wildly, for example - or unless there are real consequences. In hockey, players who engage in reckless behaviour typically put themselves as much at risk - sometimes more - than anyone else on the ice, so you tend not to see it repeated a lot.

If I saw someone running around kicking his skate up at people, I'd probably question his sanity.

That basically sounds like what the OP is asking if he can do

 

[Fremitus Borealis]

Har har

It was just an honest question, guys. Sorry I obviously didn't do a great job of explaining what I was thinking.

 

[MeHateHe]

Har har

It was just an honest question, guys. Sorry I obviously didn't do a great job of explaining what I was thinking.

Sorry, dude. It's a good idea for a thread. It's something I haven't seen a lot of.

 

[STC]

Since these kind of things tend to be scattered around the various threads, I thought it might be helpful to have a specific spot for it. I'll go first.

Is it a penalty if... you use your leg to stick-lift a defensive player who's trying to lift your stick while you're attacking? I know you're allowed to hold off a guy with your free arm, provided you don't grab onto them... but what about with the leg? There've been quite a few times now where I'm cutting in on goal and get stick-lifted by one of the ringers on the opposing team right before I get my shot off. Last game I tried using a wider stance when cutting in to sort of have a leg in the way as they tried to steal the puck back, with mixed results. But what about if, say, I'm set up in the slot and the defenseman is lifting my stick; am I allowed to do anything other than lift his stick back with my own? Because obviously using mine effectively takes me out of the play.

This is a really weird question. As others have said, don't even attempt this. First off, from what you've described about yourself in terms of your skill level (I think you're pretty new to the game, right?) I seriously doubt you even possess the balance to be able to accomplish what you are talking about. You'll most likely fall on your ass and even possibly end up falling with your skate flying wildly up in the air endangering others around you.

Here is what you should do in that situation. If you are camped out in front and someone is lifting your stick the best thing to do is move. Spin off the defender and find a new place in the slot to camp out. You should never be standing in the same spot in front of the net for more than a second or two. Always be moving in relation to where the puck/play is. One of the biggest mistakes new players make is they think they are supposed to just go to the front of the net and sit there. When they do that they essentially take themselves completely out of the play. Keep an eye on the puck and constantly be moving to new spots while at the same time keeping your stick in a position where you are a possible target for your teammates who have the puck.

Only thing you should be using your feet for other than skating is handling/passing the puck.

 

[Big Papi]

here's one:

I was standing still (literally not moving, feet planted), we were in our zone (i'm a D), my body was facing directly down ice, but my head was turned and following the puck with was in play along the boards to my immediate right (turnover by us at our blueline), roughly 10 feet away. I wasn't covering anyone per se (they were still entering the zone), but just trying to put myself in a position to block a centre ice pass, and hadn't moved to block to a lane, etc. A player from their team (roughly 5'7), skated right into me. I did not see them til the last second, and as I was not moving/skating I had no momentum to try and avoid the player. they bounced off me (i'm 6'3) and fell, not to boast but I barely moved after being ran into.I looked right at the ref, figuring I'd get called for having bad luck, and they ref looked up at me, down at the player on the ice (no injury) up at me kinda grimaced and called a penalty on me for interference. we were up 6-2 with less than 2 minutes left and I'm not the over dramatic type, but i think it was a bad call.

thoughts?
If i left anything out, just ask

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

here's one:

I was standing still (literally not moving, feet planted), we were in our zone (i'm a D), my body was facing directly down ice, but my head was turned and following the puck with was in play along the boards to my immediate right (turnover by us at our blueline), roughly 10 feet away. I wasn't covering anyone per se (they were still entering the zone), but just trying to put myself in a position to block a centre ice pass, and hadn't moved to block to a lane, etc. A player from their team (roughly 5'7), skated right into me. I did not see them til the last second, and as I was not moving/skating I had no momentum to try and avoid the player. they bounced off me (i'm 6'3) and fell, not to boast but I barely moved after being ran into.I looked right at the ref, figuring I'd get called for having bad luck, and they ref looked up at me, down at the player on the ice (no injury) up at me kinda grimaced and called a penalty on me for interference. we were up 6-2 with less than 2 minutes left and I'm not the over dramatic type, but i think it was a bad call.

thoughts?
If i left anything out, just ask

Game management call, score based call, depending on circumstance, I would make the same call, if the ref knows the other team how/if they can get stupid, etc, I'd make the call and come over explain exactly why it was made, 6-2 game, few minutes left, other team can get really really stupid, this calms it down...

 

[Big Papi]

Game management call, score based call, depending on circumstance, I would make the same call, if the ref knows the other team how/if they can get stupid, etc, I'd make the call and come over explain exactly why it was made, 6-2 game, few minutes left, other team can get really really stupid, this calms it down...

I get that, don't agree with it per SE, but totally get where you are coming from.

Did I really commit a penalty all things equal? I am 100% sure I had been stopped in the spot for a few seconds prior, did not see the skater and did not initiate contact.

I appreciate you're previous response, like I said that puts things into perspective.

 

[FLYLine27*]

Game management call, score based call, depending on circumstance, I would make the same call, if the ref knows the other team how/if they can get stupid, etc, I'd make the call and come over explain exactly why it was made, 6-2 game, few minutes left, other team can get really really stupid, this calms it down...

I get that, don't agree with it per SE, but totally get where you are coming from.

Did I really commit a penalty all things equal? I am 100% sure I had been stopped in the spot for a few seconds prior, did not see the skater and did not initiate contact.

I appreciate you're previous response, like I said that puts things into perspective.

Sure, it's game management. But it's still not a penalty. You are entitled to your ice as long as you don't change lanes to obstruct someone without the puck. He skated into you and fell, that's on him. It's another thing if maybe you throw your hands up into him as he's coming at you, then I could see it being a grey area and could see a penalty on you, whether you are protecting yourself or not.

 

[Summer Rose]

I get that, don't agree with it per SE, but totally get where you are coming from.

Did I really commit a penalty all things equal? I am 100% sure I had been stopped in the spot for a few seconds prior, did not see the skater and did not initiate contact.

I appreciate you're previous response, like I said that puts things into perspective.

The way you're describing it, no. Game management or otherwise, I can understand why the ref called it (though if he observed the situation for a split second without immediately raising his arm, it was probably a management call). I tend to track movements of players and visualize the lanes and speeds of the defending team, or attacking players who could be passing options for the pick carrier provided within my field of view. It's almost like a end-of-line rail station with trains coming into the station and being routed to the proper platforms (in this analogy the puck carrier doesn't exist). A defender completely stationary while the attacking team is moving towards/into the attacking zone is an oddity and might get overlooked, but if there's a collision and the attacking team player falls, I might not have noticed that he had come to a complete stop without impeding anyone's progress before an attacking player runs into him. In the rail analogy it would be like a train stopping short of its platform for... who knows what reason? So from a ref's view I might have been tempted to call it, since the situation might look like a slow-moving defender impeding the progress of an attacking player moving much faster and (illegally) blocking the possibility of an odd-man rush.

That probably doesn't make a lot of sense. Interference is a very difficult penalty to put to words, but if you play or watch for a few years you just kind of develop an instinct for seeing it over time. You probably just triggered the ref's instinct for interference, and size disparity aside the end result was you staying on your feet and the opponent falling down, which is kind of an unintentional way of the attacking player "selling" the call.

 

[tarheelhockey]

In any case... no, it's not a penalty. Either the ref goofed it up, or he gave you an "unfair" penalty in order to keep the other team from retaliating.

 

[Big Papi]

Thanks guys for your responses!

it sucks being a big guy on the ice sometimes, half the time when a guy falls next to me (and I didn't so anything) I expect to get called for something. lol.

I got called for a cross check last game, even though my stick was on the ice (reaching for the puck with one hand, my right, on the butt end of the stick, and i'm a left hand shot). I did knock a guy over when 3 of us (i was sandwiched between two guys from the other team) tried to go for the puck at the same time. I was skating straight to the back boards and the other guy was cutting in on my left and I tried to get my left shoulder/arm out in front of him, but guess I didn't have enough real estate. I made sure not to hold him, but I for sure knocked him down when we we bummed shoulder to shoulder (not on purpose, but that doesn't matter). I'm ok with getting called for a penalty I guess, but as a player i get a little chuckle when I get called for something that I didn't do (i.e. hard to cross check a guy when you only have one had a stick and the stick doesn't touch the player cause the blade is on the ice).

Kinda tells me the ref is not looking, and is just making the call on what he sees of the aftermath.

 

[Summer Rose]

Thanks guys for your responses!

it sucks being a big guy on the ice sometimes, half the time when a guy falls next to me (and I didn't so anything) I expect to get called for something. lol.

I got called for a cross check last game, even though my stick was on the ice (reaching for the puck with one hand, my right, on the butt end of the stick, and i'm a left hand shot). I did knock a guy over when 3 of us (i was sandwiched between two guys from the other team) tried to go for the puck at the same time. I was skating straight to the back boards and the other guy was cutting in on my left and I tried to get my left shoulder/arm out in front of him, but guess I didn't have enough real estate. I made sure not to hold him, but I for sure knocked him down when we we bummed shoulder to shoulder (not on purpose, but that doesn't matter). I'm ok with getting called for a penalty I guess, but as a player i get a little chuckle when I get called for something that I didn't do (i.e. hard to cross check a guy when you only have one had a stick and the stick doesn't touch the player cause the blade is on the ice).

Kinda tells me the ref is not looking, and is just making the call on what he sees of the aftermath.

I can relate; I generally play C level because while I'm a good skater, my hands are awful, and I usually play D. I've been called for interference when I didn't change my lane or slow down (I did stop striding), the forward bumps into me as he chases the puck after trying to chip/dump it around me, but because I'm a strong skater and they're not (I'm actually not big at all; 5'11" and 135 currently), they go down.

Regarding the latter, I like to call that the "knock it off" penalty. When there's a gathering/shoving match/scrum in front of the net, we'll often just grab the guy (or guys) who was the agressor/s in the situation for... well, whatever we think is at least vaguely appropriate. Go-to is roughing, but sometimes cross checking works. It's a call that happens all the time, but there's not an actual written rule for "being aggressive in a post-whistle scrum" I could call it unsportsmanlike since that's such a blanket thing, but that would just be stupid and make the coaches/teammates think I was calling the guy for something he said, not something he did.