the nhl 03/04 rookie crop is certainly impressive, and pretty deep too, but...

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sveiglar

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db23 said:
The likelyhood of a 23 or 24 year old NHL rookie (in this day and age) ever becoming a franchise player is miniscule. In the days where the Eastern Bloc players were inhibited from coming to North America that might have been the case. No longer. The vast majority of potential franchise players are playing in the NHL at 18, and nearly all of them by 20.

Datsyuk. Late pick, doesn't come over to the NHL until 23. Not much room to improve was the sentiment two years ago.

Yes, that's one example... which doesn't fly in the face of your general statement. I just think that 'miniscule' and 'vast majority' are too strong as it basically depends on a) how early a Euro feels comfortable in coming over and b) how quickly an NHL team wants/needs him in the lineup (a deep team like Detroit had the luxury of letting Datsyuk stay at home and develop).
 

Habsfunk

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db23 said:
That said, "raw talent and potential" is not the whole ball of wax by any means. Look at players like Pavel Bure, Eric Lindros, Alexei Yashin, Alexandre Daigle. They all had as much raw talent and potential as you could hope for in a player, but none really became (what I think of) a franchise player.

I think Bure and Lindros were both franchise players before injuries took their toll. Bure was as pure a goal scorer as you could find and would electrify crowds like few others. Lindros was the dominant power forward in his prime. His PPG for the first 7 years of his career is one of the highest ever. Unfortunately his wreckless style has led to concussion problems that should force him to retire.
 

Enoch

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I think Hamhuis has the potential to be a franchise player, judging by the amount of minutes he is already logging (averaging 25 mins in March alone) and the extent of his skill base. In fact, his skillset reminds me alot of Rob Blakes skillset. I'm not saying he will be as good as Blake, but he does exhibit similar talents.
 

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db23 said:
Character, personality and durability are the other factors, and they are just as important. That is why I like Komisarek from this year's crop. He is off the chart in terms of durability, character and intelligence. The talent is also there with Mike, it just will longer to come out.

I'm not sold on Fleury's intelligence or physical strength, Ruutu and Pitkanen's durability, Zherdev's character, Staal and Horton's raw talent, Semin's strength and durability.

You question Staal's raw talent? I dunno man.

Seems more than a little ridiculous to be questioning Pitkanen's durability based on just his rookie season.

I'm getting the impression that you're quite the critic. Didn't really talk about the upside of these guys, you appear to be focussed on searching for flaws.
 

bleedgreen

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db23 said:
That said, "raw talent and potential" is not the whole ball of wax by any means. Look at players like Pavel Bure, Eric Lindros, Alexei Yashin, Alexandre Daigle. They all had as much raw talent and potential as you could hope for in a player, but none really became (what I think of) a franchise player. Character, personality and durability are the other factors, and they are just as important. That is why I like Komisarek from this year's crop. He is off the chart in terms of durability, character and intelligence. The talent is also there with Mike, it just will longer to come out.
QUOTE]
all the players you listed (except daigle) were without a doubt franchise players at one point. im suprised you would lump the others in with daigle, were you around and watching in the 90's? lindros was a hart winner, bure averaged over 60 goals a season for a couple years (couver freaked when he got traded), yashin was definitley "franchise" for a couple of years until the repeated contract issues took its toll. just because the havent continued on that pace doesnt take away what they were - they were more dominant in their primes than any of the younger players have come close to yet (i hope they youngsters make it that far).
 

Blatny Spears

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I'm going to turn off the homer filter in my user CP so I can toss this name out there for debate: Kari Lehtonen. I think he has franchise potential.

Thoughts? Comments? Concerns? Flames? Oilers? (Bad joke, there.)
 

db23

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You question Staal's raw talent? I dunno man.

Seems more than a little ridiculous to be questioning Pitkanen's durability based on just his rookie season.

I'm getting the impression that you're quite the critic. Didn't really talk about the upside of these guys, you appear to be focussed on searching for flaws.

Well, I suppose it depends on how you define "franchise player" as to how critical you need to be. To me it is a guy like Gretzky, Ray Bourque, Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Ron Francis, Scott Stevens, Matt Sundin, Steve Yzerman, Nik Lidstrom, Patrick Roy, Brian Leetch who spent at least a decade with a single team, won championships, was a perennial All Star, probably end up in the Hall of Fame and didn't have off ice problems. That requires star talent along with good doses of the other factors I mentioned. Staal doesn't have the pure offensive skill to make him a perennial All Star. Pitkanen seems to have been hurt a lot, both in Finland and since he came to the NHL.
 

db23

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db23 said:
That said, "raw talent and potential" is not the all the players you listed (except daigle) were without a doubt franchise players at one point. im suprised you would lump the others in with daigle, were you around and watching in the 90's? lindros was a hart winner, bure averaged over 60 goals a season for a couple years (couver freaked when he got traded), yashin was definitley "franchise" for a couple of years until the repeated contract issues took its toll. just because the havent continued on that pace doesnt take away what they were - they were more dominant in their primes than any of the younger players have come close to yet (i hope they youngsters make it that far).

All of those players wore out their welcome in at least one city during their career. All were distractions and handicaps to their team at some point in time. All had the experience of their fans being "glad to see them go". That disqualifies a player from being a "franchise" player to me.
 

db23

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Blatny Spears said:
I'm going to turn off the homer filter in my user CP so I can toss this name out there for debate: Kari Lehtonen. I think he has franchise potential.

Thoughts? Comments? Concerns? Flames? Oilers? (Bad joke, there.)

Certainly Lehtonen has as much chance as anyone. The fact that he has just played one NHL game thus far, and the inherent uncertainty of goaltenders as prospects makes any judgements premature.
 

st_roland

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Potential franchise players from the 2003 draft? How about MAF, Staal, Horton, Zherdev, Vanek, Suter, Coburn, Phaneuf, Kastitsyn, Parise,........you get the point.
 

db23

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st_roland said:
Potential franchise players from the 2003 draft? How about MAF, Staal, Horton, Zherdev, Vanek, Suter, Coburn, Phaneuf, Kastitsyn, Parise,........you get the point.

Actually I don't get the point. :dunno: This thread is about NHL rookies who have a chnce to become franchise players. Only Stall, Horton, and Zherdev have played in teh NHL this year of the players you mentioned. Suter, Coburn and Kastitsyn have had pretty mediocre seasons this year, so I wouldn't hold your breath on those three.
 

st_roland

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db23 said:
Actually I don't get the point. :dunno: This thread is about NHL rookies who have a chnce to become franchise players. Only Stall, Horton, and Zherdev have played in teh NHL this year of the players you mentioned. Suter, Coburn and Kastitsyn have had pretty mediocre seasons this year, so I wouldn't hold your breath on those three.


Sorry I didn't read the original post well. Nevertheless, theres quite a few rookies who have a good chance of becoming franchise players.
 

stardog

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db23 said:
Well, I suppose it depends on how you define "franchise player" as to how critical you need to be. To me it is a guy like Gretzky, Ray Bourque, Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Ron Francis, Scott Stevens, Matt Sundin, Steve Yzerman, Nik Lidstrom, Patrick Roy, Brian Leetch who spent at least a decade with a single team, won championships, was a perennial All Star, probably end up in the Hall of Fame and didn't have off ice problems. That requires star talent along with good doses of the other factors I mentioned. Staal doesn't have the pure offensive skill to make him a perennial All Star. Pitkanen seems to have been hurt a lot, both in Finland and since he came to the NHL.

Yes but alot of those players you mention above lack one or more of the qualities you described as a somewhat neccesity to be defined as a franchise player.

You made a list of why you felt certain guys wouldnt be a franchise player and gave the reasons as to why, but now you list these players above as franchise players when they lack the same qualities of those you listed as NOT being a future FP.
 

stardog

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Vlad The Impaler said:

I don't see it as being THAT far off. He is going to be one heck of a defensman IMO.
What don't you like about him Vlad. Just asking out of curiousity.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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stardog said:
I don't see it as being THAT far off. He is going to be one heck of a defensman IMO.
What don't you like about him Vlad. Just asking out of curiousity.

It's worse than that. It's the fact there's little about him that stands out, other than the fact he has been overrated from day one. The only thing he does great is crosschecking players in the back.

It's VERY far off, IMO. A franchise player should be an absolute force. This guy is a servicable player. His mobility, skills, and smarts have all been blown out of proportion, in part because he was drafted early by a GM whose drafting skills have been also blown out of proportion.

There are plenty of young Ds who break out each year and do just as well. He doesn't seem to have significant upside. I maintain what I said all along: he was far from the best D in his draft year and he will not reach #1 D on his own team, let alone be a franchise type.

If his name was Johnny Crappola and you had seen him this year, would you really be saying that? I suggest a lot of folks are letting their views be colored by his draft status. When on the ice, he's nothing special. I don't see how this guy can ever reach something close to an elite group like franchise players, unless the word was rendered useless.

Just my opinion ;)
 

Birko19

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Franchise players:
-Fleury
-Pitkanen
-Staal

Possible Franchise Players:
-Horton
-Ruutu
-Raycroft
-Hamhuis

Star Players:
-Zherdev
-Semin

Very Good Hockey Players:
-Ryder
-Hunter
-Bergeron
-Liles
-Malone

The rest are Good and below, but you never know, only time will tell cause I'm talking based on their potential only.
 

Frolov 6'3

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No potential franchise players for the Kings in last years draft but I hope Dustin Brown could turn into a type Adam Deadmarsh, capable to score 30 goals each season. For the rest I hope we have a diamond in the rough with Konstantin Pushkarev. I don't think he will be a franchise player but more something like a scoring thread.
 

DKH

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5 YEARS!
You're lucky you're still alive NOW! :joker:
mid 40's is that old? most people think I'm in my early 30's and I've never smoked, have worked out minumum 4 days a week since teenager, played college hockey and have taken judo for years- don't think I'm close to going to soon (atleast hope not :D )
 

Vagrant

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The thing that is getting lost in all of this is the real definition of a franchise player, if you ask me. Leadership, Defense, Productivity, and Attitude all come into play here. There are players in this league that are fantastic talents that won't ever be considered franchise players due to the fact that they don't have the intangibles to match the talent level. Players like Kovalev, Havlat, Zherdev, O'Neill, Satan, Semin, and Amonte don't have the intangibles that it takes to be a player you would center a franchise around, in my opinion.

The few from this year that i'd consider to have Franchise player potential are these guys:

Nathan Horton
Eric Staal
Joni Pitkanen
Marc Andre Fluery

Players i've disqualified for some reason or another:

Tuomo Ruutu- The whole deal with his agent and the dispute over his entry level contract was enough to sour me on this kid. There is no player in their right mind that would alienate the fans of his team and the entire NHL by pushing for as much money as he wanted in an entry level contract. That is a character flaw if you ask me. I know his agent was the main one pushing for it, but who hires the agent? If he didn't like how he was dealing with it and these weren't his true intentions, he would have just fired the agent and signed on his own or gotten another agent.

Andrew Raycroft- One great season does not a franchise goalie make. If so, we'd have NHL superstars Jim Carey, Martin Biron, and Roman Checkmanek dominating the all-star voting. I'm still not convinced that he's going to be able to do this on the long term and i've seen average to good NHL goaltenders put up fantastic numbers in the Boston system before. (Dafoe, Shields, and Grahame come to mind). If he stays consistant enough to play his way into an all-star game next season, i'll consider it. But he's getting started a little too late as far as his level of play is concerned to garner himself franchise goaltender potential.

Patrice Bergeron- This kid has fantastic ability and he plays a very solid two way game. However, I don't see the potential leap in ability that it would take for this guy to elevate his game into the upper echelon of NHL talent. If this kid was as much of a slam dunk as everybody thinks, he wouldn't have slipped to the 2nd round. Now, I know everybody is going to start throwing names of players that have fallen to the 7th and 8th rounds that are superstars these days, but VERY few have come in that very next year and made an impact. The key to late round picks is the potential for progression in their game, and those players that were drafted late just stepped it up and worked on their game. Bergeron, in my opinion, has the very reachable potential of being a solid two way forward with 60-70 point potential. Boston for sure got a steal, but he's no franchise player. The Franchise player for the Bruins is Thornton.

Now, for the person that said Staal didnt have the talent level to become a franchise player. Staal's game isn't just offense. He is probably the most defensive centerman prospect that i've seen as an 18 year old. He draws a lot of comparison to Modano and Francis in his style of play and both of those guys are/were franchise players. The only differance between Staal and some of the others is that he has the attitude of a Franchise player. He doesn't talk himself up, he doesn't gloat after scoring a goal, he doesn't get an attitude at contract time from what i've seen, and he doesn't throw hissy fits in practice. It seems as if he's going to be the consumate professional and that is highly unusual for a player of his talent level. I've seen Staal make plays this year that glimpse at his immense talent level and it is just awe-inspiring. The talent level is there for sure, if you ask me.
 

bleedgreen

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db23 said:
All of those players wore out their welcome in at least one city during their career. All were distractions and handicaps to their team at some point in time. All had the experience of their fans being "glad to see them go". That disqualifies a player from being a "franchise" player to me.
alright, i dont like lindros either - never did...but how is he not considered a franchise player? he was the top center, or one of the top 5 through out the majority of the 90's! he won the hart trophy! that means he is not only the best player on the flyers - he was the best in the league, you cant judge him not a franchise player for what he is now. your description of that kind of player doesnt fit anyone but highest hall of famers - which is pushing it. is doug gilmour a franchise player? in my opinion, as great as he was - he was only on top of the world for 2 seasons in toronto, but he still deserves consideration, doesnt he? lindros shouldnt be disqualified for the end of his term in philly - i think that was a mess that clarke played a large part in, then blaming eric's dad. lindros almost died of a collapsed lung, and still he was scorned.
I would make the arguements for yashin and bure, but im lazy and dont feel like getting flamed by people with short memories - these guys were in that class. Yzerman was my favorite player to watch throughout my whole life - i would slo mo old highlights on tape to learn how to toe drag and score sweet goals, i respect him to the highest order. He is no longer a big scorer - and is the franchise in his presence only, but if he had been traded 5 years ago to a losing team, limping around for a couple years on bad knees refusing to quit despite dwindling stats and criticisms of an unforgiving media (and people on this board)saying he should of hung them up years ago - would he make your list then? is jagr not on your list? its a crime if he isnt.
 
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bleedgreen

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i just think we shouldnt throw franchise tags on the young kids until they are ready for it - or they'll end up on peoples lists as total failures unless they are mvp's every season. for those throwing that tag at raycroft and bergeron, ive got 2 names for you - bryan smolinski and blaine lacher. 2 guys who could never live up to fans expectations after their rookie years. im not saying that raycroft , bergeron are going to bust (at all, i like them) - just give them 4 or 5 years before throwing that status at them so you at least know for sure what you have. bergeron could end up like samsonov - he was fully developed at 18, and is consistent about being only that good - which should be good enough. it isnt for a lot of people because everyone assumes if you can score 30 at 18, you HAVE to score 50 by 22. thirty or so every healthy season isnt good enough for most fans.
i worry about staal too, as a canes fan. ive seen what the expectations can do to young guys who dont have a lot of help (oneill, pronger, nylander, nikolishin) - i dont expect him to be the "man" for at least 3 or 4 years.
 

perin

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Tuomo Ruutu- The whole deal with his agent and the dispute over his entry level contract was enough to sour me on this kid. There is no player in their right mind that would alienate the fans of his team and the entire NHL by pushing for as much money as he wanted in an entry level contract. That is a character flaw if you ask me. I know his agent was the main one pushing for it, but who hires the agent? If he didn't like how he was dealing with it and these weren't his true intentions, he would have just fired the agent and signed on his own or gotten another agent.


I don't think he alienated any Blackhawks fans, Now Mike Smith if you want to talk about alienating fans or how about Bill Wirtz. Being aHawks fan and watchin Ruutu he has the ability to be a franchise player
 

fullmetalninja

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Hey Caniac-

Ruutu just wanted the same type of contract every other player in the top 15 got. What Mike Smith, and Bill Wirtz objected to was the Joe Thornton model that EVERY top pick has gotten since.

Meaning, specifically, that if Ruutu met his rookie contract goals in ONE year, the clause was kicked in for all three years.

So before you go judging some kid you know obviously nothing about(and all your franchise players are in the east........ okay) If Staal doesn't get a deal like that, there is no way he signs. NO AGENT let's a kid sign a deal that is clearly inferior.

Let me repeat that, every agent with a top 15 pick, under the current agreement- requires that type of contract model. ITS THE HAWKS THAT WERE AT FAULT IN THIS, NOT RUUTU.

Its also not Mike Smith, it was Bill Wirtz. If Wirtz goes to Mike Smith and says- I don't give a darn, sign this kid--- the kid was signed. Its that simple.

I don't know how one defines a franchise player... but to Say that Tuomo Ruutu does not have a good enough attitude means you haven't paid attention to what Tuomo Ruutu is about.

-fullmetalninja
 
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