The next Franchise super star forward to the NHL?

[WarriorofTime]

3.Why do russian teams fill their quotas with some really unimpressive imports like Rodewald/Pu/Colby Williams etc, when there are many much better north american players in Europe?

See, right back to the same arguments, the "KHL imports are bad", what unlike the UN of Hockey Swedish Hockey League (which is about as Swedish as the KHL is Russian)...

Canadian SHL Players ‑ 2023-2024 Stats

Canadian SHL players during the 2023-2024 season | SHL statistics for all Canadian players during the 2023-2024 regular season.

www.quanthockey.com

Is this a mighty list of high-end Canadian imports? A whole lot of guys with more ECHL games played than AHL ones...

 

[WarriorofTime]

KHL is 80+% russian, and 90+% russian/belarussian/kazakhstani

Another blatant lie

73.7 + 5.9 + 3.6 = 83.2 % Russia/Belarus/Kazakhstan

I suppose the 2.4 % of Danes in the SHL are so high quality?

Look at Big 4 talent producing countries.

Russia + USA + Canada + Sweden = 86.7 %

SHL by comparison

Sweden + USA + Canada + Russia = 82.7 %

All of this dodges the main point. SHL isn’t to Swedish players as KHL is to Russian players. Not even close. Swedish players will go to North America first chance and transfer agreement lets them. They also go play in Switzerland and Germany a lot. This is the analogy you have a tough time getting passed.

 

[Garl]

No, I never said it’s “vastly superior”. That’s a strawman. It's you that has a categorical hatred of Russian hockey players, I do not have a categorical hatred of Swedish players. You are in record on Michkov, Demidov, Ryabkin, Nikishin, Silayev threads negging on all of them. You even called Silayev a "fraud". I do no such thing with Swedish or any players...

And the second point, it’s like you missed the whole point of the transfer agreement. lol. The reason Swedes are in higher NHL and AHL numbers is the same reason the SHL is a far inferior league to the KHL... and to the AHL as well.

Genuine question. Do you believe Filip Roos played in NHL games before Alexander Nikishin because he has been a better hockey player to date?

Yes, you never said it in this exact wordking, but unless it is the case, your theory of KHL>>>>>>>SHL makes absolutely no sense. 6 more teams to fill remember?

So, your answer to the "why there are more swedes than russians in NHL" is basically "transfer agreement". Ispecifically asked you to keep in mind your "economic realities" and keep in mind who the top russian players in KHL are. There are like 30 more swedes than russians in NHL. Where are this 30 players in KHL and why are they hiding from higher salaries in Russia? Goldobin? Gusev? Morozov? Tkachyov? Tolchinsky?

No, "transfer ageement" is not a good explanation to why there are 60 swedes to 35 russians in NHL.
And to your questions, no I don't think Roos is a better player compared to Nikishin. I also don't think that Nikolay Knyzhov is a better player than for example Henrik Tommernes, or that Vasily Ponomaryov is better than Oscar Lindberg. You are cherry picking, question was about numbers superiority, if you only count players with more than 10 games you still have 69-43 advantage for Sweden. Even though, if Russia was a better talent producer, there should have been more russians and we see an opposite picture.

PS Now, I did not call Silayev a "fraud". I called Silayev's draft rankings a fraud. I also don't remember commenting much on Demidov or Ryabkin, except for admitting that Ryabkin's numbers are really impressive for his age. I also remember saying that Nikishin has overgrown KHL and is too good for it. "strawman" LOL

 

[Garl]

See, right back to the same arguments, the "KHL imports are bad", what unlike the UN of Hockey Swedish Hockey League (which is about as Swedish as the KHL is Russian)...

Canadian SHL Players ‑ 2023-2024 Stats

Canadian SHL players during the 2023-2024 season | SHL statistics for all Canadian players during the 2023-2024 regular season.

www.quanthockey.com

Is this a mighty list of high-end Canadian imports? A whole lot of guys with more ECHL games played than AHL ones...

Question was "why do they sign players of this level when there are much better players avaliable in Europe" You are dodging. Reason for the question was that according to your theory, all the best non NHL canadians should be in KHL because of the money. But in fact, we don't see it, Corban Knight and Brian O'Neill are in Switzerland, Clifford Pu and Jack Rodewald are in KHL. Why?

I never even said anything about SHL imports. That's a strawman LOL

 

[WarriorofTime]

So, your answer to the "why there are more swedes than russians in NHL" is basically "transfer agreement". Ispecifically asked you to keep in mind your "economic realities" and keep in mind who the top russian players in KHL are. There are like 30 more swedes than russians in NHL. Where are this 30 players in KHL and why are they hiding from higher salaries in Russia? Goldobin? Gusev? Morozov? Tkachyov? Tolchinsky?

You don't get it and you never will it seems. The NHL doesn't hold an open tryout every year. Spots go to who is there...

If you followed an NHL team and prospects, you would understand the difference and how it factors in. There is a reason there is no "Swedish Factor". See a random example of a random 4th line level player here Carl Grundström - Wikipedia

In the 2016–17 season, Grundström recorded a career best 14 goals and 20 points in 45 games with Frölunda. On 28 April 2017, Grundström left Frölunda mid-contract, using his NHL exit clause in agreeing to a three-year, entry-level contract with the Maple Leafs.

After attending the Maple Leafs training camp for the 2017–18 season, Grundström was reassigned to continue his development on loan in Sweden with Frölunda HC on 2 October 2017. He placed second on the club with 17 goals and finished with 24 points in 35 games. For the second consecutive season he was reassigned to join the Maple Leafs' American Hockey League (AHL) affiliate, Toronto Marlies, in the post-season. He helped the Marlies to claim their first Calder Cup, posting 8 goals and 14 points in 20 playoff games, leading all AHL rookies in playoff scoring.

Grundström returned to the Marlies for the 2018–19 season.

Is he so much better than his Russian equivalent level talent? Is that why he has 236 NHL games and equivalent level Russian player has 0? Or is Leo C. just so much better than Matvei M. that this is the sole reason one is in the NHL and one in the KHL? Or do you even remotely acknowledge that the transfer agreement does indeed play a role in who is "there" in a given season...?

I never even said anything about SHL imports. That's a strawman LOL

except you constantly say SHL is better than KHL because SHL is "international" and KHL is "only Russian". Now you walk it back because the data is not on our side. So that then that leaves you with that? Less teams? Ok. So less teams, cool. I suppose Slovak Extraliga is better than the DEL because hey, less teams.

 

[Garl]

Another blatant lie

73.7 + 5.9 + 3.6 = 83.2 % Russia/Belarus/Kazakhstan

I suppose the 2.4 % of Danes in the SHL are so high quality?

Look at Big 4 talent producing countries.

Russia + USA + Canada + Sweden = 86.7 %

SHL by comparison

Sweden + USA + Canada + Russia = 82.7 %

All of this dodges the main point. SHL isn’t to Swedish players as KHL is to Russian players. Not even close. Swedish players will go to North America first chance and transfer agreement lets them. They also go play in Switzerland and Germany a lot. This is the analogy you have a tough time getting passed.

You can't be serious. I specifically said, if you exclude 3 non russian KHL teams from calculation, then the league is 80+% russian, and 90+% russian/belarussian/kazakhstani. I don't know, try reading posts before responding.

The "2,4"% of danes in SHL is 8 players. So yeah, for comparsion Denmark and Norway are roughly on the same level as Belarus and Kazakhstan.
Number of players in the leagues:
Belarus-45
Kazakhstan-35
Denmark-8
Norway-4

Question: how come there are 80! players from Belarus and Kazakhstan in the 2nd best league in the World? Are this 2 countries talent producing powerhouses?

We are talking about absolute numbers it is 80 vs 12, That Denmark or Norway produced 12 good players for SHL is absolutely believable, that Belarus and Kazakhstan produced 80! players for allegedely better league is bogus


"Swedish players will go to North America first chance"-to NHL yes, but same goes for russian players with some exceptions. For AHL? No, only some young guys, similar with russians.

Swedish players go to Switzerland, it is true, there are like 25 swedes in NL, it is true and it is a factor. Germany is not a factor at all, swedes there are mostly washed up or guys who couldn't make it in SHL.

Again, we can make it to numbers:
Russia has 40 players in NHL and 40 in AHL, plus they need to fill 20 teams in KHL, let's say 20 players per team

40+40+20*20= 480

Sweden has 65 in NHL, 70 in AHL, 25 in NL and 14 teams in SHL

65+70+25+14*20=440

It is not even equal, Russia needs more players. But in reality they have strict import limit.

So, yes, unless you believe Russia is superior to Sweden in hockey you can't maintain KHL>>>>>SHL position. And if you do believe it, then show some proof.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You can't be serious. I specifically said, if you exclude 3 non russian KHL teams

You realize there are players from Belarus on teams other than Minsk? I'm starting to get the sense you may not.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Swedish players go to Switzerland, it is true, there are like 25 swedes in NL, it is true and it is a factor. Germany is not a factor at all, swedes there are mostly washed up or guys who couldn't make it in SHL.

another lie

Maksim Matushkin - QuantHockey

Maksim Matushkin player profile, stats and championships. Born 1990-01-31 in Minsk, Belarus. Maksim Matushkin currently plays for the Löwen Frankfurt (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Andreas Thuresson - QuantHockey

Andreas Thuresson player profile, stats and championships. Born 1987-11-18 in Kristianstad, Sweden. Andreas Thuresson currently plays for the Kölner Haie (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Max Görtz - QuantHockey

Max Görtz player profile, stats and championships. Born 1993-01-28 in Höör, Sweden. Max Görtz currently plays for the Schwenninger Wild Wings (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Ludvig Byström - QuantHockey

Ludvig Byström player profile, stats and championships. Born 1994-07-20 in Örnsköldsvik, Sweden. Ludvig Byström currently plays for the Nürnberg Ice Tigers (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Adam Almquist - QuantHockey

Adam Almquist player profile, stats and championships. Born 1991-02-27 in Jönköping, Sweden. Adam Almquist currently plays for the EHC München (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Anders Grönlund - QuantHockey

Anders Grönlund player profile, stats and championships. Born 1989-01-03 in Piteå, Sweden. Anders Grönlund currently plays for the Pinguins Bremerhaven (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Joacim Eriksson - QuantHockey

Joacim Eriksson player profile, stats and championships. Born 1990-04-09 in Gävle, Sweden. Joacim Eriksson currently plays for the Schwenninger Wild Wings (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Let's compare non-NHL/non-Domestic League numbers

AHL:
76 Swedes, 48 Russians have appeared

Liiga:
45 Swedes, 0 Russians have appeared

NLA:
29 Swedes, 1 Russian have appeared

DEL:
9 Swedes, 2 Russians have appeared

Czech Extraliga:
3 Swedes, 0 Russians have appeared

Total:
162 Swedes have appeared in the major leagues that are not the NHL or the SHL
51 Russians have appeared in the major leagues that are not the NHL or the KHL

Take out the AHL which is a feeder/has overlap with NHL (callups/sent downs)

86 Swedes have appeared in the other big European leagues
3 Russians have appeared in the other big European leagues (1 of which accounting for 5 KHL games is all the post-KHL representation here....)

 

[Garl]

You don't get it and you never will it seems. The NHL doesn't hold an open tryout every year. Spots go to who is there...

If you followed an NHL team and prospects, you would understand the difference and how it factors in. There is a reason there is no "Swedish Factor". See a random example of a random 4th line level player here Carl Grundström - Wikipedia

Very obnoxious language from someone, who can't understand how Kunlun affects the overall numbers and % of north american players in KHL.

Anyway, russians are signing in NHL without problems and can earn good money there. Lack of tramsfer agreement did not prevent Toropchenko or Kostin or Trenin from landing an NHL contract, and Carl Grundstrom has more skill than any of those three.

I don't like to go for cherry picking and looking at individual players, because this deflects us from main point usually. There are multiply factors why one player succeeds and another one fails. Team, individual skillset, how fast he started speaking english, how many countrymates he had on the team, who was the coach etc. But all of this is individual, we are talking national level, at that level, all this factors should even up and numbers should reflect the state of national program.

Is he so much better than his Russian equivalent level talent? Or is Leo C. just so much better than Matvei M. that this is the sole reason one is in the NHL and one in the KHL? Or do you even remotely acknowledge that the transfer agreement does indeed play a role in who is "there" in a given season...?

Again, you are going at individual level when you shouldn't. Is Klim Kostin a better player than Viktor Ejdsell? I don't know. In particular Grundstrom case, well, he is better than any russian from 1997 year not named Kaprizov, so? He is a good scorer, who plays strong all around game. Russia doesn't have many of those.
Leo С vs Matvei M? That is one point which I can give you actually. KHL will have their young big talents longer usually. Not always, as you can see with Miroshnichenko vs Lekkerimaki case for example, but often. How many players are we talking about though? Michkov, Nikishin? 2 guys. who probably could play in NHL this season on a regular basis. It is not much and doesn't affect the big numbers again.

except you constantly say SHL is better than KHL because SHL is "international" and KHL is "only Russian". Now you walk it back because the data is not on our side. So that then that leaves you with that? Less teams? Ok. So less teams, cool. I suppose Slovak Extraliga is better than the DEL because hey, less teams.

Which data is not on my side again? I said that russian teams in KHL are almost excluseively russian and never claimed the same about Kunlun, Minsk and Barys. Stop making stuff up.

Slovak League is not better than DEL. Because DEL has a lot of quality imports and because almost all the best slovaks in Europe are not in Extraliga. This, along with the fact that german base is roughly as good as slovak base are the factors why DEL is a much better league.

 

[Garl]

You realize there are players from Belarus on teams other than Minsk? I'm starting to get the sense you may not.

I have said that if you take only 20 russian teams in KHL, then, their rosters are 80+% russian, and 90+% russian/belarussian/kazakhstani

Your data, that KHL is 73% russian is based on the fact, that you count 3 non russian teams in calculation, and this 3 teams have almost no russians on their rosters. When comparing the player base of Russia vs Sweden, we have to exclude non russian teams from calculation.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I don't like to go for cherry picking and looking at individual players, because this deflects us from main point

Except it’s not cherry picking. It’s literally systemic…. It’s not a deflection. It is the point. You either think the transfer agreement matters or not. And you don’t it seems. You think the Swedish super plugs are all just so good and that’s why there are so many super plugs that play plug minutes compared to Russians?

 

[Garl]

another lie

Maksim Matushkin - QuantHockey

Maksim Matushkin player profile, stats and championships. Born 1990-01-31 in Minsk, Belarus. Maksim Matushkin currently plays for the Löwen Frankfurt (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Andreas Thuresson - QuantHockey

Andreas Thuresson player profile, stats and championships. Born 1987-11-18 in Kristianstad, Sweden. Andreas Thuresson currently plays for the Kölner Haie (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Max Görtz - QuantHockey

Max Görtz player profile, stats and championships. Born 1993-01-28 in Höör, Sweden. Max Görtz currently plays for the Schwenninger Wild Wings (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Ludvig Byström - QuantHockey

Ludvig Byström player profile, stats and championships. Born 1994-07-20 in Örnsköldsvik, Sweden. Ludvig Byström currently plays for the Nürnberg Ice Tigers (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Adam Almquist - QuantHockey

Adam Almquist player profile, stats and championships. Born 1991-02-27 in Jönköping, Sweden. Adam Almquist currently plays for the EHC München (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Anders Grönlund - QuantHockey

Anders Grönlund player profile, stats and championships. Born 1989-01-03 in Piteå, Sweden. Anders Grönlund currently plays for the Pinguins Bremerhaven (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Joacim Eriksson - QuantHockey

Joacim Eriksson player profile, stats and championships. Born 1990-04-09 in Gävle, Sweden. Joacim Eriksson currently plays for the Schwenninger Wild Wings (DEL).

www.quanthockey.com

Let's compare non-NHL/non-Domestic League numbers

AHL:
76 Swedes, 48 Russians have appeared

Liiga:
45 Swedes, 0 Russians have appeared

NLA:
29 Swedes, 1 Russian have appeared

DEL:
9 Swedes, 2 Russians have appeared

Czech Extraliga:
3 Swedes, 0 Russians have appeared

Total:
162 Swedes have appeared in the major leagues that are not the NHL or the SHL
51 Russians have appeared in the major leagues that are not the NHL or the KHL

Take out the AHL which is a feeder/has overlap with NHL (callups/sent downs)

86 Swedes have appeared in the other big European leagues
3 Russians have appeared in the other big European leagues (1 of which accounting for 5 KHL games is all the post-KHL representation here....)

As I have said, washed up(Thuresson, Gronlund, Ericsson, Gortz, Almquist) and those, who couldn't make it(Matushkin, Samuelsson, Svensson, Bystrom)



Then, those 45 swedes in Finland, and 3 swedes in Czech Republic, did they go there for money? Were they good players in SHL but those goldsacks from Finland and Czechia bought them? Why did you bring them up? Are you serious?

 

[Garl]

Except it’s not cherry picking. It’s literally systemic…. It’s not a deflection. It is the point. You either think the transfer agreement matters or not. And you don’t it seems. You think the Swedish super plugs are all just so good and that’s why there are so many super plugs that play plug minutes compared to Russians?

Just because you say "transfer agreement" you don't prove anything, you should show, how does it work and how does it prevent all those magical russians from going to NHL?

Transfer agreement prevents russians with contracts from going to NHL. But this contracts expire, and they are free to sign, And the sign, and go to NHL, and most of them fail, and then they go back to be top players in KHL. Grigorenko, Golyshev, Yakovlev, Mamin, Shalunov, Shumakov, Bereglazov, Jaskin, Plotnikov, Shipachyov, Tkachyov, Yelesin, Kamenev, Ozhiganov, Gusev etc. Then you can add north american russian flops: Goldobin, Letunov, Volkov, Glotov, Korostelev, Der Agruchintsev etc List will go on.


Superplugs from Russia play in NHL: Trenin, Toropchenko, Kostin, Zaitsev, Lyubushkin, Zadorov. And they earn much better money than they would in KHL. Why there are not many of them? Take a guess

Swedes have superior numbers among players who play in TOP 6 or TOP 9 and TOP 4 or TOP 6 defense.

 

[Fantomas]

Garl is a living breathing Monty Python sketch. Without the funny.

 

[WarriorofTime]

And the sign, and go to NHL, and most of them fail, and then they go back to be top players in KHL. Grigorenko, Golyshev, Yakovlev, Mamin, Shalunov, Shumakov, Bereglazov, Jaskin, Plotnikov, Shipachyov, Tkachyov, Yelesin, Kamenev, Ozhiganov, Gusev etc. Then you can add north american russian flops: Goldobin, Letunov, Volkov, Glotov, Korostelev, Der Agruchintsev etc List will go on.

Translation: “Russian hockey bad!”

Pretty rich when you have to reach to Zadorov to being a super plug. A middle 3 defenseman this season that was traded for by a Stanley cup contender lol. You are obviously reaching on your “examples”

38 Swedish players in 2023-24 with 1-25 games played on the season (6 of them Goalies), 18 Russian players in 2023-24 with 1-25 games played on the season (5 Goalies). We've already cut down more than half of the Swedish-Russian NHL disparity right there!

But sure, only Michkov and Nikishin could maybe possibly be good enough to appear in NHL games, the transfer agreement isn't real, Russian players don't re-sign in the KHL or not sign in the NHL unless they have assurances of a role and don't go back to the KHL instead of riding the waiver bus to try and hang around as an 11th-14th forward... yes, none of them that happens. They're all just failures and flops.

When players like Panarin, Kaprizov and Kuzmenko come over in their mid-20s and are instantly high performing players, and the boards get in an uproar over 'old men' winning the Calder Trophy they were obviously just very bad players prior to that when they played in the KHL who magically transformed into good players overnight. And no, not a chance there could be 0.5 - 0.8 PPG KHL players that could play about as well as all the plugs in North American scattered over the League. That is impossible. They just couldn't hack it. The Mackenzie Entwistles of the world are just that much better, and not just guys that happen to be present.

 

[Eye of Ra]

The lack of transfer agreement keeps higher quality domestic players in place longer. The salaries attract much better imports than Sweden. Only the Swiss league can rival the khl import quality, because Switzerland pays well and is a cool place to live but the domestic player pool stinks. The SHL is quite possibly the most overrated league in the world but a decent spot for AHL players who can’t find a spot in a veteran player rule.


No, there are some good programs but the player pool is not the deepest. The leagues themselves aren’t as financially vibrant and work as de-facto minor leagues for the nhl/ahl.

So where would you rank SHL among leagues? NHL, KHL, AHL, NLA is better in my book. I have SHL right now at nr 5. But that might be too high, just look at how good Germany, Czechs and finns been doing in the last WCs, which could mean that DEL, Czech extraliga and Liiga have surpassed SHL.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Another blatant lie

73.7 + 5.9 + 3.6 = 83.2 % Russia/Belarus/Kazakhstan

I suppose the 2.4 % of Danes in the SHL are so high quality?

Look at Big 4 talent producing countries.

Russia + USA + Canada + Sweden = 86.7 %

SHL by comparison

Sweden + USA + Canada + Russia = 82.7 %

All of this dodges the main point. SHL isn’t to Swedish players as KHL is to Russian players. Not even close. Swedish players will go to North America first chance and transfer agreement lets them. They also go play in Switzerland and Germany a lot. This is the analogy you have a tough time getting passed.

Germany? What? There is 8 swedes in DEL

In liiga there is 46 swedes

Elite Prospects - Liiga Stats 2023-2024

2023-2024 regular season player stats for Liiga, including top goal scorers, most games played, PPG leaders and more.

www.eliteprospects.com

In NCAA there is 57 swedes

Elite Prospects - NCAA Stats 2023-2024

2023-2024 regular season player stats for NCAA, including top goal scorers, most games played, PPG leaders and more.

www.eliteprospects.com

 

[wetcoast]

What thread an I in again?

 

[WarriorofTime]

So where would you rank SHL among leagues? NHL, KHL, AHL, NLA is better in my book. I have SHL right now at nr 5. But that might be too high, just look at how good Germany, Czechs and finns been doing in the last WCs, which could mean that DEL, Czech extraliga and Liiga have surpassed SHL.

NHL, KHL, AHL, SHL.

NLA has better imports but the domestic player pool is weaker.

 

[Lockin17]

Gezzz what's up with the hype for Michkov .....
I see Celebrini bieng THE star in the team that will draft him even Chicago.
He is going to win ,,
Calder
Hart x 3
Conn Smythe
Art Ross x 2
Selke

 

[Garl]

So where would you rank SHL among leagues? NHL, KHL, AHL, NLA is better in my book. I have SHL right now at nr 5. But that might be too high, just look at how good Germany, Czechs and finns been doing in the last WCs, which could mean that DEL, Czech extraliga and Liiga have surpassed SHL.

Allsvenskan has surpassed SHL aswell

 

[Acallabeth]

You must have genuinely missed it then, because for 2-3 years before the 97' draft it was considered the "Samsonov draft" and he was supposed to be the next big Russian superstar in line with Bure. He slipped a little in his draft year despite still being amazing, but there was concerns about size

Samsonov was an early bloomer who has played in a (very weak at the time) Russian national league at a very early age.
He was a great prospect, just not on Michkov's level. Never had those dominant international tournaments, never played in high level leagues before the draft.

People were hyping many players as the next superstar, sometimes it's just not justified. Yakupov and Grigorenko were called the next Ovechkin and Malkin too.

Except it’s not cherry picking. It’s literally systemic…. It’s not a deflection. It is the point. You either think the transfer agreement matters or not. And you don’t it seems. You think the Swedish super plugs are all just so good and that’s why there are so many super plugs that play plug minutes compared to Russians?

Who are you always responding to lol