The once-new "what's going on with Panarin" thread

[major major]

Quite the opposite. The breakthrough for Pittsburgh occurred when they won the Lemieux draft. He was instrumental in getting Jagr to agree to play there. He was instrumental in keeping the team in Pittsburgh. He was instrumental in Crosby’s early years.

They don’t luck out in that draft, they probably don’t have a team today.

As for Panarin, it is simply a result of the current NHL system. This is his big contract. He isn’t going to give up negotiation rights a year early for anyone - not even for a team on which he is thriving and whose locker room he really likes. One thing I am sure about is I hope our front office doesn’t trade him because they are worried about not having a few extra picks in the 2019 draft. As with Columbus in 2013 or Boston in 2015 a significant impact on the roster doesn’t come from having multiple 1sts in a given year. It comes from getting the guy at the very top of the draft.

I'm not buying it. Citing Columbus and Boston as your examples is rich. As is discussing the merits of getting the best player drafted in the last 35 years.

Firstly, Lemieux had just as much chance to spurn Pittsburgh as any player had to spurn Columbus. They were in bad shape. The fact that he was drafted #1OA isn't what gave him the quality of wanting to recruit players and save a team.

If Panarin and Bobrovsky stay here they can play a pivotal role. They are the two best players in franchise history, and neither were even drafted. I'm not sure what you mean by "having a significant impact on the roster", but surely players of that caliber should qualify. And surely enough impact to win a cup would fit under that umbrella. Boston won the cup almost entirely on the strength of later round picks. They currently have the "best line in hockey", which is Marchand (71st OA), Bergeron (45th OA), and Pastrnak (25th OA). Zdeno Chara (56th OA), McAvoy is a future star (14th OA). If Boston had made better decisions in the 2015 draft they would have had soon to be superstar Mat Barzal, who is surely capable of "having a significant impact on the roster." I could give you a long list of 1st OA picks that are not as good as any of the 8 or 9 players I've mentioned, Panarin and Bobrovsky included.

 

[EspenK]

So goodbye yellow brick road...they are both gone. I would trade them both for as much as I could get as soon as I could make a deal. Tell me again how this isn't going to be a distraction? Especially with Bob's tendency to get into his own head and let it affect his play.

 

[thebus88]

When you play for an organization that does that to you, and doesn't appreciate it, you should have the feeling that you are not in the right place. Go to a team that will appreciate you.

"Ok, Bye"- Jarmo Kekalainen

 

[thebus88]

So how do we square this with his willingness to discuss sign-and-trades with other clubs (up until today) and his unwillingness to discuss any deals with the Jackets?

He's being nice about it. That's all.

So...have....we....reached....acceptance?

 

[MAHJ71]

So goodbye yellow brick road...they are both gone. I would trade them both for as much as I could get as soon as I could make a deal. Tell me again how this isn't going to be a distraction? Especially with Bob's tendency to get into his own head and let it affect his play.

Theres a few on here that are still 100% on it not being a distraction... I'm sure they'll pop up any second.

 

[major major]

I don't think the Panarin situation is actually going to affect play. Everyone likes playing with each other.

The Bob situation I'm not so sure about. I'm frankly pissed enough about the ingratitude towards Bob that I would break a goalie stick on the post. I think Bob might feel the same way. It could hurt his play. And then thinking about going into UFA, imagine how he would react to the "safe-is-death" hockey in front of him? The bad coverage in front of him hurts his reputation, and the unfairness of that has to be grating.

 

[KJ Dangler]

I don't think the Panarin situation is actually going to affect play. Everyone likes playing with each other.

The Bob situation I'm not so sure about. I'm frankly pissed enough about the ingratitude towards Bob that I would break a goalie stick on the post. I think Bob might feel the same way. It could hurt his play. And then thinking about going into UFA, imagine how he would react to the "safe-is-death" hockey in front of him? The bad coverage in front of him hurts his reputation, and the unfairness of that has to be grating.

Bobs burner account

 

[Crede777]

I am not saying you do not get good players outside of 1OA. I'm saying you don't get franchise altering players outside of 1OA.

And that was the question - What does Pittsburgh have that Columbus doesn't?

As for willingness to stay, for a franchise like Columbus, it is much easier getting loyalty out of a player you have drafted versus one acquired in a trade.

 

[JacketsDavid]

BS.

The loyalty problem is on the other side of the table.
He's taking offers from the FO, but the FO won't commit to him. "The CBJ allowed him to resurrect his career" - more like Bob resurrected the franchise. He's stolen countless games for us. Bob feels that the FO is not appreciative of what he's done, and I think he's entirely justified in feeling upset about it.

With Bob it's a business decision not to offer him a huge pay day. Personally I agree with it. I wouldn't give a MAX contract to a goalie unless he could carry us to the cup. I'm sure some team out there will give him a huge deal.

With Panarin it's his personal decision.

For one player we're likely willing to throw everything at him and he is likely to leave. For the other he wants to stay but there may not be a happy medium on compensation and he may go as well.

My guess (since CBJ usually does many deals I think are foolish) is they break down and give Bob a huge deal eventually.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

ll.

My guess (since CBJ usually does many deals I think are foolish) is they break down and give Bob a huge deal eventually.

I think that this could be it. But it can't drag out forever.

Without Bob, this isn't a playoff team. He knows it and the FO knows it. The FO has "playoff Bob" leverage and they're probably using it. Bob doesn't like that and takes it personally. I'm a broken record on this, but it's a brutally tough call for the FO.

I'd think that if something isn't done by January, then he's probably traded.

 

[major major]

With Bob it's a business decision not to offer him a huge pay day. Personally I agree with it. I wouldn't give a MAX contract to a goalie unless he could carry us to the cup. I'm sure some team out there will give him a huge deal.

With Panarin it's his personal decision.

For one player we're likely willing to throw everything at him and he is likely to leave. For the other he wants to stay but there may not be a happy medium on compensation and he may go as well.

My guess (since CBJ usually does many deals I think are foolish) is they break down and give Bob a huge deal eventually.

Yes, I get the business decision aspect. There's a lot of risk in making a long term commitment. It's a tough one. That is understandable.

Folks here are saying, "meh, he isn't that good" or "ok, bye". That is something else.

 

[major major]

I am not saying you do not get good players outside of 1OA. I'm saying you don't get franchise altering players outside of 1OA.

And that was the question - What does Pittsburgh have that Columbus doesn't?

As for willingness to stay, for a franchise like Columbus, it is much easier getting loyalty out of a player you have drafted versus one acquired in a trade.

You can plainly win cups without 1OA picks. Where were Zetterberg and Datsyuk drafted? I'm not sure what else this category of "franchise altering players" is supposed to be for. It sounds like you've narrowly crafted a category of a few players that were taken at 1OA, and devalued everything else.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Yes, I get the business decision aspect. There's a lot of risk in making a long term commitment. It's a tough one. That is understandable.

Folks here are saying, "meh, he isn't that good" or "ok, bye". That is something else.

He's an elite goalie. We won't be able to replace him at that position.
It's just in my mind about allocating resources and I would rather have two quality goalies making combined $6M on shorter term deals than 1 guy making double that locked up for 6-8 years (keeping in mind he's 30 already). Then hopefully team can use savings to solidify top 6 forwards.

 

[Xoggz22]

The biggest challenge with Bob, in my opinion, is his age and point in career. While he has several good years left (maybe he would play at a high level for all 8 years), I don't think Columbus wants to commit the term given the a) goalie pipeline they feel strongly about and b) several other big contracts upcoming (Dubois, Jones, Werenski to name a few). Clearly a good goaltender is needed to support the team but a foundation in front of him that limits the need for the goalie is a much better build in my opinion.

Panarin is the bigger sting for me. He is a game changer, difference maker and makes the other team accountable and on their heals. We've had nothing like him before and need more of him, not less. This one is tough. An 8 year deal still puts him at a reasonable age at the end of the contract. Especially if front loaded.

I don't see either sticking around but this is clearly a huge crossroads for the front office. Losing both puts the team in a tough spot - although much, much better than in years past due to the depth.

 

[CBJFan827]

I am not saying you do not get good players outside of 1OA. I'm saying you don't get franchise altering players outside of 1OA.

And that was the question - What does Pittsburgh have that Columbus doesn't?

As for willingness to stay, for a franchise like Columbus, it is much easier getting loyalty out of a player you have drafted versus one acquired in a trade.

1. We don't have the league favoritism that rigged the Crosby lottery, nor did we have the same lottery luck.
2. Mario Lemieux can be persuasive for Crosby's buy in as well
3. Other than that? Very little.

How are you defining "franchise altering player"? I'd consider the following few players close to that/on their way:
2010: Vladimir Tarasenko (#16 OA), Evgeny Kuznetsov (#26 OA), John Klingberg (131 OA)
2011: Nikita Kucherov (#58 OA), Johnny Gaudreau (#104 OA)
2014: Dylan Larkin (#15 OA), David Pastrnak (#25 OA)
2015: Mathew Barzal (#16 OA), Brock Boeser (#23 OA)
2016: Charlie McAvoy (#14 OA)

 

[thebus88]

I don't think the Panarin situation is actually going to affect play. Everyone likes playing with each other.

The Bob situation I'm not so sure about. I'm frankly pissed enough about the ingratitude towards Bob that I would break a goalie stick on the post. I think Bob might feel the same way. It could hurt his play. And then thinking about going into UFA, imagine how he would react to the "safe-is-death" hockey in front of him? The bad coverage in front of him hurts his reputation, and the unfairness of that has to be grating.

Maybe he can use some of the 10's of millions of dollars the CBJ have given him to soak up the tears.

My god. HE "priced" HIMSELF out.

Your idea that the CBJ team is "holding him back" is not gonna stick anymore.

 

[major major]

Your idea that the CBJ team is "holding him back" is not gonna stick anymore.

Are you familiar with the situation the last time Tortorella embraced "safe-is-death", in mid-aughts Tampa? Do you know how many goalies he burned through, none of which could even muster a .900 sv% in that system? What does the phrase "I'm tired of the 25 percent rule" mean to you?

 

[MAHJ71]

I don't think the Panarin situation is actually going to affect play. Everyone likes playing with each other.

The Bob situation I'm not so sure about. I'm frankly pissed enough about the ingratitude towards Bob that I would break a goalie stick on the post. I think Bob might feel the same way. It could hurt his play. And then thinking about going into UFA, imagine how he would react to the "safe-is-death" hockey in front of him? The bad coverage in front of him hurts his reputation, and the unfairness of that has to be grating.

I get you're gung-ho about your opinion on Bob but this is not at all the type of injustice you're painting it to be.

Jarmo has said all the right things regarding the situation. His teammates have always acknowledged his skills and what he brings every night. He's been a fan favorite for the longest time. His picture is all over the darn arena for crying out loud.

Yes there are a few things here in there that have been said about him but every player could complain about that. Also, the team can't control the media so complaining about a few articles here and there is fruitless.

Looking at the big picture he's been treated like a franchise player here in Columbus, outside of Jarmo not handing him Carey Price money the second he demands it.

----Whether Bob stays or goes, I will never look back and think he was mistreated by the org or the fans.

----I will remember the crazy saves, the time I bought his jersey, the time I got him to sign it, meeting him in Vegas on the strip last year and him thanking us for coming out.

 

[Crede777]

You can plainly win cups without 1OA picks. Where were Zetterberg and Datsyuk drafted? I'm not sure what else this category of "franchise altering players" is supposed to be for. It sounds like you've narrowly crafted a category of a few players that were taken at 1OA, and devalued everything else.

Detroit last won the Cup a decade ago. I think things have changed to the point where it's necessary to have that franchise player around whom you build the team. And I think it's important to have drafted that player so you get the minimum years out of him from an ELC and RFA.

Granted, it's no guarantee (see: Tavares and McDavid), but just having a player like that suddenly makes others want to play on your team or stick around.

When I think about changing of fortunes for franchises, it almost always goes back to when they get a high profile player with the 1st pick in the draft. Washington with Ovechkin, Pittsburgh with Crosby, Chicago with Kane, Tampa Bay with Stamkos, Edmonton with McDavid, and Toronto with Matthews.

Meanwhile, I can think of a number of teams who have made Finals appearances or, in the case of Carolina even won the Cup, and whose reputation didn't really change one bit.

 

[major major]

Detroit last won the Cup a decade ago. I think things have changed to the point where it's necessary to have that franchise player around whom you build the team. And I think it's important to have drafted that player so you get the minimum years out of him from an ELC and RFA.

Granted, it's no guarantee (see: Tavares and McDavid), but just having a player like that suddenly makes others want to play on your team or stick around.

When I think about changing of fortunes for franchises, it almost always goes back to when they get a high profile player with the 1st pick in the draft. Washington with Ovechkin, Pittsburgh with Crosby, Chicago with Kane, Tampa Bay with Stamkos, Edmonton with McDavid, and Toronto with Matthews.

Meanwhile, I can think of a number of teams who have made Finals appearances or, in the case of Carolina even won the Cup, and whose reputation didn't really change one bit.

So many holes. Datsyuk and Zetterberg were franchise players. LA just won two cups, and Boston one, this decade, without any #1OA picks. Stamkos isn't as good as Kucherov. Ovechkin is no more important than Kuznetsov.

Is the CBJ inherently, permanently failed without the redemption of a #1OA? No. If Panarin and Bob stay I like the Jackets odds of continuing to move towards the cup, building the team like the Bruins. And I think they might modestly improve even without them. They had 18-1 cup odds, not bad. You might say Panarin and Bob wanting to go is proof that we need a #1OA savior to lure them to stay, but the facts of the situation belie that theory. Panarin has Miami and Long Island on his list, two teams with much worse odds.

 

[thebus88]

Are you familiar with the situation the last time Tortorella embraced "safe-is-death", in mid-aughts Tampa? Do you know how many goalies he burned through, none of which could even muster a .900 sv% in that system? What does the phrase "I'm tired of the 25 percent rule" mean to you?

They've gone back and forth on the whole mindset of "safe is death".

Please, list the goalies that Torts has mismanaged or "burned through".

I could be wrong, but I believe that phrase was when Torts was talking about the team (TB?) getting a big save when they needed it. Absolutely could be related to Bob, I'll give you that.

Bob absolutely has the "propensity" to let in goals he "should not" let in. Playoffs, or the 1st 2 minutes of ANY given game. We have "joked" about this a COUNTLESS AMOUNT of times, because it has happened a COUNTLESS AMOUNT of times. These "jokes" about 'playoff Bob' have left NOBODY laughing, as time has essentially shown that there is more accuracy to this label than we would have hoped.

The idea of "playoff Bob", is when he is "off", not restricted to playoff hockey or even necessarily when the "pressure" is the highest.

When he is on, he is ON. When he is off, he is OOOOOOOFFFFFFFFFFFF.

 

[Crede777]

So many holes. Datsyuk and Zetterberg were franchise players. LA just won two cups, and Boston one, this decade, without any #1OA picks. Stamkos isn't as good as Kucherov. Ovechkin is no more important than Kuznetsov.

Is the CBJ inherently, permanently failed without the redemption of a #1OA? No. If Panarin and Bob stay I like the Jackets odds of continuing to move towards the cup, building the team like the Bruins. And I think they might modestly improve even without them. They had 18-1 cup odds, not bad. You might say Panarin and Bob wanting to go is proof that we need a #1OA savior to lure them to stay, but the facts of the situation belie that theory. Panarin has Miami and Long Island on his list, two teams with much worse odds.

Again, I'm not talking about winning Cups, I'm talking about changing the perception about the team. And I specifically said that winning Cups isn't a guarantee that players will see your team any differently or as being more desirable.

Also, how many times does Panarin have to say that he doesn't have a list. His interviews have made it quite clear - he hasn't made his mind up at all about staying or going. But he is intent on seeing what is out there because this is his one big chance in his career to do so.

 

[major major]

They've gone back and forth on the whole mindset of "safe is death".

Please, list the goalies that Torts has mismanaged or "burned through".

I could be wrong, but I believe that phrase was when Torts was talking about the team (TB?) getting a big save when they needed it. Absolutely could be related to Bob, I'll give you that.

Torts employed "safe is death" in Tampa, didn't do it in New York or Vancouver, and he's brought it back here in Columbus where it's been in force for most of the last couple years. The "25 percent rule" was his exaggerated way of describing how his goalies in Tampa would let in a goal on 25 percent of the shots.

Here's the sv% of Torts' goalies in the last 3 years in Tampa:

2005-06

Sean Burke 35 games .895
John Grahame 57 games .889

2006-07

Johan Holmqvist 48 games .893
Marc Denis 44 games .883

2007-08

Mike Smith 13 games .893
Johan Holmqvist 45 games .890
Karri Ramo 22 games .899
Marc Denis 10 games .859

Safe is death is not good for goalies numbers. If you look at the shot difficulty for Bob, it's at the top of the league. His save percentage, as good as it is, is dragged down by the team play-style. The models that calculate expected save percentage, based on shot quality, give the Jackets a very low expected save percentage. Bob is beating that expectation by a larger margin than any other goalie.

Bob absolutely has the "propensity" to let in goals he "should not" let in. Playoffs, or the 1st 2 minutes of ANY given game. We have "joked" about this a COUNTLESS AMOUNT of times, because it has happened a COUNTLESS AMOUNT of times. These "jokes" about 'playoff Bob' have left NOBODY laughing, as time has essentially shown that there is more accuracy to this label than we would have hoped.

The idea of "playoff Bob", is when he is "off", not restricted to playoff hockey or even necessarily when the "pressure" is the highest.

When he is on, he is ON. When he is off, he is OOOOOOOFFFFFFFFFFFF.

I don't think he's got some special tendency there. Folks are saying this about every goalie these days. Especially the odd-angle goals, which are probably up just because of better shooting. Do a poll about it and ask people "does your goalie give up an above average number of odd-angle goals?" I think the answer might be well over 50%.

 

[JKinCLE]

Jamie McGinn is out indefinitely with a back injury... there goes the rumored deal with the Panthers.

 

[KJ Dangler]

So, in reflecting back on yesterday’s interviews , both Bob and Panarin will both be gone . Panarin is basically saying he’s not sure , and you only get this opportunity 1 x, which means that pretty much , no matter what , he’s waiting till next summer , and will decide then . That means no sign and trade , and we are looking at some prospects, maybe a first , if he becomes a rental . I was always of the mindset that Panarin would be traded early , and they would let Bob play out his year here . But being that Panarin has sabatoged his trade value, leaking all this info out this summer , the jackets are pretty much stuck with letting the season play out , and evaluate at the trade deadline . With Bob, I think they will be listening to offers , and he’s moved sooner , rather than later . What Bob is looking for , and what the jackets are looking for is totally different . The jackets feel Korpisalo can be a #1, and that Merzlikins can be a franchise goalie . Bob no doubt , will be looking for 6-7 year deal, which in no way , the jackets will entertain .

I wouldn’t be shocked to see the cbj keep Panarin for the whole season , and be fine with him walking after the season , in hopes of the team having a big breakthrough this year , having a crapload of cap room available with Bob and Panarins money falling off , and going big game fishing next summer . Going to be a fun year