Speculation: the myth of trading for dmen

[north49er]

Burns wasn’t but he’s wrong about the trade. It was a first (always valuable), a top prospect (which is what Coyle was) and a promising young winger that just scored 25 goals if I remember correctly (Setoguchi). Also Burns only had one year left.

The valuable 1st rounder is doing well....playing in England.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Not exhaustive, but here’s a list of notable trades involving U30 defensemen this decade:

Player	Team Control	Traded For
McDonagh	~1.25	Quantity
Hamonic	3	Quantity
Sergachev	7(+)	Quality
Subban	6	Quality
Larsson	5	Quality
Jones	~4.5(+)	Quality
Hamilton	4(+)	Quantity
Yandle	~1.5	Quantity
Myers	~4.25	Quality
Leddy	1(+)	Quantity
Bouwmeester	~1.25	Quantity
J. Johnson	~6.25	Quality
Burns	1	Quantity
E. Johnson	~1.5(+)	Quality
Phaneuf I	~4.5	Quantity

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

(+) indicates players of RFA age.

The common theme I see is that defenders will generally go for relative quantity when (1) said player is within 18 months of free agency or (2) said player is the casualty of a cap strapped team. There are a couple that deviate from that narrative, namely Hamonic, Hamilton and Phaneuf I. They’re pretty spread out, so I’m not sure you can expect for that type of trade to be available when your team needs it.

You're missing Sami Vatanen, who was traded with ~2.5 years left of team control for quality.

 

[Gecklund]

The valuable 1st rounder is doing well....playing in England.

Just because they missed on their pick doesn't make it any less valuable. Minnesota could have just as easily taken Rakell, Gibson, Saad, or Kucherov who were all taken after Phillips.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

you were wrong about hamonic, he had extenuating circumstances because of his mothers illness, he requested he be traded closer to home and out of respect for him the Islanders complied.

and still got a lottery 1st and 2 2nds, that certainly was not a quantity trade. they got fair value under duress. and according to credible sources the Isles had turned down Taylor Hall straight up a year earlier, thereby showing how highly the Islanders valued him. and still do

the fact that Garth Snow refers to him as "little brother" demonstrates how much they value him

Perhaps Hamonic does not belong with Hamilton and Phaneuf given the circumstances. While the motive was not related to term or the cap, it was unique enough to be an outlier. That’s fair.

I’d still label it a quantity trade, though. I don’t mean that as an insult to the Islanders; I’m not criticizing the value received. Hamonic didn’t return a comparable NHL skater in the same way a Jones, Larsson, Myers, etc. did. You generally expect that if you’re trading a player with that type of remaining term.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Ranking by salary massively biases the analysis towards UFAs.

The analysis is utterly useless because of it.

I think the point i was trying to make... teams are able to acquire dmen

Think of ufa as... a trade that is free. Adding an ufa just requires you to have enough cap room

My point is that teams that complain they are unable to get a dman... really are just saying we don't want to pay a dman

Well paid dmen are fairly easy to get

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Except nearly all of the ones you listed took an overpayment to get, in either cap hit, or assets.

Assets... really? I didnt include a single guy in my list that required an over payment in assets

I intentionally didnt name subban, weber, jones and a couple others because they are the handful of examples of guys that did require value.

Although now, im curious who you think from my list did require an overpayment in assets?

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

You're missing Sami Vatanen, who was traded with ~2.5 years left of team control for quality.

Goligoski for Neal (quality for quality) was another notable one I missed.

Probably some others as well. I didn't spend a ton of time on it.

 

[CanadienShark]

Often these highly paid guys were only available because they were paid more than their worth, which suggests they aren't actually top d-men.

 

[Newsworthy]

Shattenkirk wanted to play for the RANGERS his hometown team and took a pay cut
Ranger signed Shatty so they weren't able to afford Yandle.
Isles were able to acquire Leddy for a reasonable price because Blackhawks needed Cap relief
Same with Boston and Boychuk
Niskanen had yet to develop into the player he is now and was still paid alot on the open market

 

[mouser]

Top 30 Dmen in TOI/G this season:

1. Doughty - drafted
2. Suter - #1 UFA massive contract, to play near home
3. Karlsson - drafted
4. Ristolainen - drafted
5. Hedman - drafted
6. Pietrangelo - drafted
7. E Johnson - big trade
8. S Weber - big trade
9. Letang - drafted
10. Burns - moderate trade, his D production increased greatly post-trade
11. Fowler - drafted
12. Giordano - signed as prospect
13. Carlson - drafted
14. S Jones - big trade
15. Spurgeon - signed as prospect
16. Yandle - UFA
17. Josi - drafted
18. Byfuglien - moderate cap related trade, was largely playing forward pre-trade
19. Edler - drafted
20. Provorov - drafted
21. Subban - big trade
22. Klingberg - drafted
23. Keith -drafted
24. Dumba - drafted
25. OEL - drafted
26. TJ Brodie - drafted
27. Ekholm - drafted
28. Petry - pending UFA TDL trade
29. Ekblad - drafted
30. Ellis - drafted

Breakdown:
21 - drafted by current team or signed as prospect
2 - signed as UFA's
4 - acquired in a "big" trade
3 - acquired in moderate trades. one of which was a TDL, and in the other two the player was not valued as a top pairing D at the time of trade.

 

[Newsworthy]

I think the point i was trying to make... teams are able to acquire dmen

Think of ufa as... a trade that is free. Adding an ufa just requires you to have enough cap room

My point is that teams that complain they are unable to get a dman... really are just saying we don't want to pay a dman

Well paid dmen are fairly easy to get

Right now Green, John Carlson and Calvin DehAan are expected to be three top free agents available.
I'm sure Carlson wants the Caps but can they afford him?
Or is he willing to take adiscount?
If not then someone else with more cap space will overpay.
someday that team may not be able to resign their stat Dman and maybe a declining Carlson with a bad contract (too many years with high cap) will be the reason
Green i expect to leave Detroit and be overpaid
ID be surprised if CDH returns to NY. he won't be cheap even though he isn't anything special

 

[north49er]

Just because they missed on their pick doesn't make it any less valuable. Minnesota could have just as easily taken Rakell, Gibson, Saad, or Kucherov who were all taken after Phillips.

Far too valuable to make a mistake like that.

 

[Gecklund]

Far too valuable to make a mistake like that.

It really helps if you put the subject of the sentence in the actual sentence instead of implying it.

 

[Stuzchuk]

Burns had 1 year left with questionable D
Buff was a cap casualty
Suter was expensive as hell
Phaneuf has a huge contract
Giordano wasn’t a top 4 D let alone top pair
Shattenkirk only wanted to play in one place
Yandle has questionable D to say the least and was coming off a pretty poor year
Green has questionable D
Boychuk Niskanen and Leddy were cap casualties
Hamilton was a result of a new GM trying to make his own mark on the team
Sekera was expensive and barely top 4
Petry played on an awful team and there was no telling how he would do
Schultz and Orpik are laughable examples

We have a winner...

 

[Martin Skoula]

Shattenkirk wanted to play for the RANGERS his hometown team and took a pay cut
Ranger signed Shatty so they weren't able to afford Yandle.
Isles were able to acquire Leddy for a reasonable price because Blackhawks needed Cap relief
Same with Boston and Boychuk
Niskanen had yet to develop into the player he is now and was still paid alot on the open market

The point is situations like this happen every year. If you're looking for a #2/3 defenseman, you have other options than drafting one or trading a major piece for one like this forum likes to imply.

 

[boogeybendo]

Top 30 Dmen in TOI/G this season:

1. Doughty - drafted
2. Suter - #1 UFA massive contract, to play near home
3. Karlsson - drafted
4. Ristolainen - drafted
5. Hedman - drafted
6. Pietrangelo - drafted
7. E Johnson - big trade
8. S Weber - big trade
9. Letang - drafted
10. Burns - moderate trade, his D production increased greatly post-trade
11. Fowler - drafted
12. Giordano - signed as prospect
13. Carlson - drafted
14. S Jones - big trade
15. Spurgeon - signed as prospect
16. Yandle - UFA
17. Josi - drafted
18. Byfuglien - moderate cap related trade, was largely playing forward pre-trade
19. Edler - drafted
20. Provorov - drafted
21. Subban - big trade
22. Klingberg - drafted
23. Keith -drafted
24. Dumba - drafted
25. OEL - drafted
26. TJ Brodie - drafted
27. Ekholm - drafted
28. Petry - pending UFA TDL trade
29. Ekblad - drafted
30. Ellis - drafted

Breakdown:
21 - drafted by current team or signed as prospect
2 - signed as UFA's
4 - acquired in a "big" trade
3 - acquired in moderate trades. one of which was a TDL, and in the other two the player was not valued as a top pairing D at the time of trade.

thank you. this is the list that should be used. the original was TERRIBLE.

 

[High n Wide]

Top 30 Dmen in TOI/G this season:

1. Doughty - drafted
2. Suter - #1 UFA massive contract, to play near home
3. Karlsson - drafted
4. Ristolainen - drafted
5. Hedman - drafted
6. Pietrangelo - drafted
7. E Johnson - big trade
8. S Weber - big trade
9. Letang - drafted
10. Burns - moderate trade, his D production increased greatly post-trade
11. Fowler - drafted
12. Giordano - signed as prospect
13. Carlson - drafted
14. S Jones - big trade
15. Spurgeon - signed as prospect
16. Yandle - UFA
17. Josi - drafted
18. Byfuglien - moderate cap related trade, was largely playing forward pre-trade
19. Edler - drafted
20. Provorov - drafted
21. Subban - big trade
22. Klingberg - drafted
23. Keith -drafted
24. Dumba - drafted
25. OEL - drafted
26. TJ Brodie - drafted
27. Ekholm - drafted
28. Petry - pending UFA TDL trade
29. Ekblad - drafted
30. Ellis - drafted

Breakdown:
21 - drafted by current team or signed as prospect
2 - signed as UFA's
4 - acquired in a "big" trade
3 - acquired in moderate trades. one of which was a TDL, and in the other two the player was not valued as a top pairing D at the time of trade.

And to even further your point, two of your "big trades" can be heavily asterisked (Subban/Weber) since it was a single trade which required both teams already having a top pairing defenseman. In terms of looking at acquiring a top pairing defenseman as the OP is, this "acquisition" is a wash.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

The price for 3rd pairing Jones was a 60pt center.



Jones outscored him this season so I can't even imagine what Jarmo would want for him now.


You want proven top pairing quality, it's gonna hurt.

I wish San Jose had offered Logan Couture for Seth Jones. I love Couture but he was probably more valuable than Johansen at the time and I would so much rather have Seth Jones right now.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Top 30 Dmen in TOI/G this season:

1. Doughty - drafted
2. Suter - #1 UFA massive contract, to play near home
3. Karlsson - drafted
4. Ristolainen - drafted
5. Hedman - drafted
6. Pietrangelo - drafted
7. E Johnson - big trade
8. S Weber - big trade
9. Letang - drafted
10. Burns - moderate trade, his D production increased greatly post-trade
11. Fowler - drafted
12. Giordano - signed as prospect
13. Carlson - drafted
14. S Jones - big trade
15. Spurgeon - signed as prospect
16. Yandle - UFA
17. Josi - drafted
18. Byfuglien - moderate cap related trade, was largely playing forward pre-trade
19. Edler - drafted
20. Provorov - drafted
21. Subban - big trade
22. Klingberg - drafted
23. Keith -drafted
24. Dumba - drafted
25. OEL - drafted
26. TJ Brodie - drafted
27. Ekholm - drafted
28. Petry - pending UFA TDL trade
29. Ekblad - drafted
30. Ellis - drafted

Breakdown:
21 - drafted by current team or signed as prospect
2 - signed as UFA's
4 - acquired in a "big" trade
3 - acquired in moderate trades. one of which was a TDL, and in the other two the player was not valued as a top pairing D at the time of trade.

Finding a number 1... hard

Finding a dman that can help your team? I hear time and again some gm says... we cant find a dman. I see fans buying into it

Vegas was supposed to draft like 15 dmen... because supposedly every team needed one and vegas could make a killing trading these guys

There was no killing to be made though

And vegas is a pretty good example how alot of dmen out there can play but simply don't get used correctly

If someone sees potential... creates the right enviroment... supports the player... you can find dmen that will help

Look at my bruins

Chara... ufa
Mcavoy and carlo high picks
Krug... undrafted signing
Miller... undrafted signing
Mcquaid... minor league trade

Sure there was the high profile ufa and the 2 kids... but half this defense was available to anyone that wanted it

Of course cap space is limited... im not saying every available dman is a smart use of money

Im really just saying getting dmen is not really any harder than getting wingers or centers or goalies.

Saying its so hard is just an excuse

 

[voxel]

Burns acquired for cheap? LOLOLOL.

In modern times it would be Nylander + 1st 2019 + Brown/Kapenen for essentially Parakyo. Is that cheap? Okay then...

Petry + Schultz were deadline UFA deals.

Phanuef + Leddy were cap dumps. Flames jettisoned him at his peak.

I argue Hamilton and Hamonic are the only true cheap trades.. both for mid 1sts more or less (but if the Flames won the lottery... lol).

 

[Mickey Marner]

I've always found it amusing that people will mock Chia for the Hall trade, then turn around and demand a star forward for their top-4 defenseman.

 

[voxel]

Vegas was supposed to draft like 15 dmen... because supposedly every team needed one and vegas could make a killing trading these guys

There was no killing to be made though

And vegas is a pretty good example how alot of dmen out there can play but simply don't get used correctly

...
Look at my bruins

You overvalue non-Norris, non-Elite D-men. Vegas does it by committee more or less what Oilers did last season. When you have forwards who forecheck, backcheck, and defend.. you don't need Preds type D. Do you even watch the Knights?

Not sure if Bruins are the greatest example... they got booted in the second round handily in a weak division. They are definitely young and will grow with experience.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

and you make my point... theres always dmen available but people with your attitude wont get them... instead they will end up on another team

its attitude that stops someone from being able to get get dmen... attitude and the cost of what the cap hit will be. clearly these guys move frequently and if someone wants one they aren't that expensive to get

What you’re saying is a truism. Some defensemen make it to free agency — usually they’re overrated and overpaid — and except for a handful none are untradable.

The issue is always the cost and how good a GM is at gauging it.

 

[Randy Randerson]

the guys mentioned in the OP weren't as good at the time of their acquisition as they became after, there's always gambles to take at discounts but they don't always pan out

OP, if you want to look at acquiring defensemen for value look at how many top pairing guys get drafted after the 1st round. Spend lots of picks on dmen, throw it against the wall and see what sticks

 

[north49er]

It really helps if you put the subject of the sentence in the actual sentence instead of implying it.

Yes it would be. Hopefully you'll do better next time. Just stating what a mess Minny made of the Burns trade. Burns for a dud 1st rounder now playing in England, Setoguchi out of hockey and Coyle barley an average center. Hope that clarifies it for you.