The Leafs will be the team that ends Canada’s cup drought.

[nbwingsfan]

And now the West

Calgary 23.4
Edmonton 18.9
Vancouver 22.5
Colorado 17.2
Dallas 19.4
St. Louis 23.2

Next Year the Leafs will likely be around ~19. Bottom 3rd yes, but not a major outlier. A demonstrably viable d-spend.

Get your points straight. Your point was that 40m on 4 forwards was abandoning the D, clear implication that their isn't enough money get a viable D- group. That point is demonstrably false.

Please tell me how you are going to get a viable defense next season when you have about $11M in cap space and need to sign Dermott/Engvall/backup goalie/ replacement for 3 of your current top 4D.

Im excited to hear this actually.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Please tell me how you are going to get a viable defense next season when you have about $11M in cap space and need to sign Dermott/Engvall/backup goalie/ replacement for 3 of your current top 4D.

Im excited to hear this actually.

I expect Dermott to sign a similar contract that Justin Holl recently did. Besides that Engvall while playing great since he was called up, he won't be making as much as you think on his next contract. Who knows what other moves Dubas will make on their defense, however some Leafs fans do expect that Sandin and Liljegren to be in the NHL full time next season. Finally the backup goalie does need to be addressed and we will see who's available for that position.

 

[BlueBaron]

I suggest renaming this to the "Official HF Leaf bashing thread" and pin it down. No sense pretending any more.

 

[Burke the Legend]

Pop-Quiz- who has actually done a good job developing and acquiring talent so they aren’t bottom 5 in goals against? Those same teams. Imagine that.

And if you’re so curious:
Leafs: $18M
Bruins: $21M - with very friendly deals for Carlo/McAvoy and without Chara’s bonuses
Tampa: $21M
Florida: $28.4M
Pens: $23M
Washington:$21.5M
NYI: $18.5

So you’re the lowest, with only NYI being within $1M, while you guys are wasting the last year of having two top 4D (Barrie/Muzzin) making a combined $6.75M when that will be closer to $10-12M next season and no cap space to fix it.

You’ve got what, $11M to sign Dermott, Engvall, and replacements for Ceci, Muzzin, Barrie and a backup goalie?

I see like $20 million for them to sign 4 forwards, 3 D and 1 backup goalie to get a roster of 20. Two of the D men are those top 4 guys tho they would need replacements for. I guess it's do-able but they're not going to be getting any upgrades that's for sure when they're going to be rushing in rookies and AHL guys at minimum salary till those holes.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I don't buy the argument that you sign #1 C of his calibre every time.

The Leafs *biggest strength* was center. They had Matthews and Kadri. Kadri was signed to a great deal and was ideally suited to play on the second line. Matthews was young and talented and already serving as the first line center.

If you have Nylander, Matthews, Marner and Tavares up front and you need to trade one for a D, the guy you would want to get rid of was Tavares cause he was way outside the window of the rest of that core. Why bring him in? It didn't take Nostradamus to know that his contract was going to be used by all the other guys in their negotiations. The minute he got $11 million, Dubas doomed his chance with this team to build a legit contending core and the worst part about it is he didn't even make the team better by doing it. By adding Tavares and giving up JVR and Bozak, he didn't really move the needle offensively and even if he had moved it dramatically, so what, the teams biggest strength was its ability to score goals.

I don’t know. Let’s say he doesn’t sign Tavares and you have Nylander + Marner + Matthews left over

Or

you sign Tavares and trade Marner/Nylander for say Pesce+ or whichever top pairing D + cap space

Or

Trade Nylander/Marner for multiple 1sts/prospects and cap space

Or

Do nothing and have Tavares/Matthews/Nylander/Marner + 0 cap space

I’d personally rank them:

4. Matthews/Nylander/Marner + cap space
3. Tavares/Matthews/Nylander/Marner + 0 cap space
2. Tavares/Matthews/Marner/ Pesce (+) + Cap Space
1. Tavares/Marner/Matthews + multiple 1sts/prospects + ton of cap space

To each their own I suppose.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I expect Dermott to sign a similar contract that Justin Holl recently did. Besides that Engvall while playing great since he was called up, he won't be making as much as you think on his next contract. Who knows what other moves Dubas will make on their defense, however some Leafs fans do expect that Sandin and Liljegren to be in the NHL full time next season. Finally the backup goalie does need to be addressed and we will see who's available for that position.

So ~$3M for Dermott, ~$2M for Engvall which leaves $6M to replace two of your top 4D, another depth D and a serviceable backup goalie? Yikes.

 

[4thline]

Please tell me how you are going to get a viable defense next season when you have about $11M in cap space and need to sign Dermott/Engvall/backup goalie/ replacement for 3 of your current top 4D.

Im excited to hear this actually.

Assume 84m cap

Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Engvall (2.3x2)-Tavares- Nylander
Mhkeyev (1.5x1) Kerfoot-Kapanen
Moore-xxx-xxx
xxx

Rielly-YYY
YYY-Holl
Sandin - Liljegren
Marincin

Andersen
ZZZ

Named = 69.67
xxx= combined 2.25 (750k per)
ZZZ= 1.2m
YYY=10.7


That D group + 10.7 =~ 20.1


= 83.82

Dermott/Johnsson traded.

 

[King In The North]

Really like how Vancouver's roster is shaping up tbh.

 

[BostonBruins11]

So ~$3M for Dermott, ~$2M for Engvall which leaves $6M to replace two of your top 4D, another depth D and a serviceable backup goalie? Yikes.

Be nice now and go away with this harsh reality check! You're just going to trigger them!

I fully expect a reply full of cherry picked charts/theories or the typical we trust the "Shanaplan" lmao! like he's going to create cap space out of thin air!

 

[LeafsNation75]

So ~$3M for Dermott, ~$2M for Engvall which leaves $6M to replace two of your top 4D, another depth D and a serviceable backup goalie? Yikes.

I don't see Engvall making $2 million. He's currently making $925,000 on his ELC and realistically since he was called up in November, I can see maybe $1 million or very close to that.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Assume 84m cap

Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Engvall (2.3x2)-Tavares- Nylander
Mhkeyev (1.5x1) Kerfoot-Kapanen
Moore-xxx-xxx
xxx

Rielly-YYY
YYY-Holl
Sandin - Liljegren
Marincin

Andersen
ZZZ

Named = 69.67
xxx= combined 2.25 (750k per)
ZZZ= 1.2m
YYY=10.7


That D group + 10.7 =~ 20.1


= 83.82

Dermott/Johnsson traded.

So you’re banking on trades that you have no idea if the will happen or not? That still leaves you with a HELL of a lot of rookies/unproven players, a weak backup goalie and 3 of your D with little to no experience and finding a top 4/top pairing D for a combined $10M?

I believe you’re also forgetting Kessel’s $1.2M retention as well.

That sure doesn’t look like an upgrade on an already very weak D....

 

[nbwingsfan]

I don't see Engvall making $2 million. He's currently making $925,000 on his ELC and realistically since he was called up in November, I can see maybe $1 million or very close to that.

K.

$7M to sign two top 4D, a backup goalie, and another depth D.

Good luck !

 

[LeafsNation75]

So you’re banking on trades that you have no idea if the will happen or not? That still leaves you with a HELL of a lot of rookies/unproven players, a weak backup goalie and 3 of your D with little to no experience and finding a top 4/top pairing D for a combined $10M?

I believe you’re also forgetting Kessel’s $1.2M retention as well.

That sure doesn’t look like an upgrade on an already very weak D....

K.

$7M to sign two top 4D, a backup goalie, and another depth D.

Good luck !

In the past there have bene similar comments about how could Toronto get out of Dion Phaneuf's contract or David Clarkson's contract, because I remember seeing comments like they would need to retain at least 50% of their deals to trade them. However history shows that never happened when they were traded, so why don't you judge Dubas on what he does this summer before making any assumptions at how Toronto is screwed for next season.

 

[4thline]

So you’re banking on trades that you have no idea if the will happen or not? That still leaves you with a HELL of a lot of rookies/unproven players, a weak backup goalie and 3 of your D with little to no experience and finding a top 4/top pairing D for a combined $10M?

I believe you’re also forgetting Kessel’s $1.2M retention as well.

That sure doesn’t look like an upgrade on an already very weak D....

Yes. I'm banking the GM to use the off-season to... do GM stuff? Seems like a safe bet lol.
No. I'm not forgetting the retention, it's included in cap friendly.

As to the rest

Your position was that the 40m 4 forwards meant it was impossible to ice a viable defense because there wouldn't be enough money. If you make the absolute leeeaaaaps (I'm talking real mindblowers here) that an NHL gm will make trades, top prospects can perform and a bottom pair level and UFA's will sign for normal UFA money, you can see that your position is categorically untrue. They can easily have the money to ice a viable D, and the execution isn't that crazy.

 

[nbwingsfan]

In the past there have bene similar comments about how could Toronto get out of Dion Phaneuf's contract or David Clarkson's contract, because I remember seeing comments like they would need to retain at least 50% of their deals to trade them. However history shows that never happened when they were traded, so why don't you judge Dubas on what he does this summer before making any assumptions at how Toronto is screwed for next season.

I’m patiently waiting on you to tell me how he’s going to improve the D without drastically changing the forwards?

There’s a difference between having bad players signed to big contracts and having to invent cap space because he refuses to trade his good players on big contracts to fix team issues.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Yes. I'm banking the GM to use the off-season to... do GM stuff? Seems like a safe bet lol.
No. I'm not forgetting the retention, it's included in cap friendly.

As to the rest

Your position was that the 40m 4 forwards meant it was impossible to ice a viable defense because there wouldn't be enough money. If you make the absolute leeeaaaaps (I'm talking real mindblowers here) that an NHL gm will make trades, top prospects can perform and a bottom pair level and UFA's will sign for normal UFA money, you can see that your position is categorically untrue. They can easily have the money to ice a viable D, and the execution isn't that crazy.

To ice a viable defense to actually win a cup? No that D certainly isn’t it. It’s worse than the one you’re currently going with (to go with now a worse forward group) and the current one can’t even get you in a playoff position 60% through the season...

 

[LeafsNation75]

I’m patiently waiting on you to tell me how he’s going to improve the D without drastically changing the forwards?

There’s a difference between having bad players signed to big contracts and having to invent cap space because he refuses to trade his good players on big contracts to fix team issues.

I already that Leafs fans expect Sandin and Liljegren to be playing full time at the start of next season. Everything else we will have to wait and see. Last year on July 1 did anyone see Dubas trading Nazem Kadri for Tyson Barrie, I did not see it happening.

 

[al secord]

...better than all the rest...

 

[4thline]

To ice a viable defense to actually win a cup? No that D certainly isn’t it. It’s worse than the one you’re currently going with (to go with now a worse forward group) and the current one can’t even get you in a playoff position 60% through the season...

Lol you've gone from thinking "gm makes trades in off-season" is too outlandish to assume to assigning value/ ability to noted NHL defenders YYY and YYY.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Lol you've gone from thinking "gm makes trades in off-season" is too outlandish to assume to assigning value/ ability to noted NHL defenders YYY and YYY.

So you think you’re getting better D than Muzzin/Barrie for $10M? No wonder you guys have such high hopes every off-season

 

[LeafsNation75]

So you think you’re getting better D than Muzzin/Barrie for $10M? No wonder you guys have such high hopes every off-season

Take this for what it's worth but Bob McKenzie reported last week that that Dubas started preliminary talks with Muzzin about a new contract, so we will have to wait see what happens with that.

 

[4thline]

So you think you’re getting better D than Muzzin/Barrie for $10M? No wonder you guys have such high hopes every off-season

Schrodinger's Cap Problems: Where the current group is terrible yet somehow impossible to replace for more money.

Depends how you define better. As individuals maybe not, better fits to make a d group? Good chance.
5.5 to Muzzin leaves 5.2.

In this scenario Johnsson/Dermott are traded. Maybe it's futures, maybe it's an under contract d-man.

In any case. You were wrong. Completely and categorically wrong. Even with those 4 contracts they have money to ice a non-abnormally priced d group among divisional playoff teams. Kvetch about the execution all we want but the money is there.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

For all the talk of the questionable defensive ability of the Leafs' defense corps, I still say a significant part of any Leaf breakdowns in their own zone are on the forwards. Not all, but I also think with more conscientious effort from the forwards, you could mitigate a lot of the sloppy looking D-zone play.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Schrodinger's Cap Problems: Where the current group is terrible yet somehow impossible to replace for more money.

Depends how you define better. As individuals maybe not, better fits to make a d group? Good chance.
5.5 to Muzzin leaves 5.2.

In this scenario Johnsson/Dermott are traded. Maybe it's futures, maybe it's an under contract d-man.

In any case. You were wrong. Completely and categorically wrong. Even with those 4 contracts they have money to ice a non-abnormally priced d group among divisional playoff teams. Kvetch about the execution all we want but the money is there.

Unless you somehow land a top pairing D for ~$5M or less (you won’t) or Sandin turns into a D as good as Makar (he won’t) yes you will absolutely have a worse D than you did this season, which is currently a bottom 5D and leading you out of the playoffs.

Not sure I’d be proud of that.

Some good teams have low salary D, because they have guys vastly out-performing their contracts or still on ELC while being impact D. If you’re banking on that happening then feel free, but that’s not a great game plan to have.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Unless you somehow land a top pairing D for ~$5M or less (you won’t) or Sandin turns into a D as good as Makar (he won’t) yes you will absolutely have a worse D than you did this season, which is currently a bottom 5D and leading you out of the playoffs.

Obviously the sample size with Sandin is still very short for his play at the NHL level. However he hasn't looked bad and last week he had 2 assists against the Devils from shots he took that were tipped in. Also who said he will be as good as Makar?