The Last Of Us Part II

[ArGarBarGar]

To the bolded: yes, but I'm doing it based off of years of experience in writing workshops and classroom environments. From what I've seen in the past, the same issues with the script for TLOU2 are consistent with the issues that you see with writers that don't take constructive criticism or don't attempt to refine their work based on the feedback of other writers.

As for your question, I'll try to keep it brief. I'll gladly follow up on any questions you might have, but I don't really want to write an essay on the topic. The video that @Fantomas posted above discusses some of these issues in greater detail if you wanted to look into these issues on a deeper level.

-Narrative structure: the modular design that the writers of the game went with hindered their ability to tell a cohesive story. While modular design is typically used to reinforce the theme of a story, in this instance it muddied the waters with unnecessary flashbacks and a complete & total disregard for the tension built in the first half of the game.

-Flashbacks: when it comes to writing, if a story depends so greatly on flashbacks in order to show character development and explain away plot inconsistencies, the story being told is the wrong one. In this instance, the story in the flashbacks should have been the primary story of the game, as the flashbacks are where the character development occurred.

-Characters: the characters in this game were unlikable, which is fine, and the dialogue overall was decent. The issue here is when the characters acted against their previously known character traits in order to fit into the plot. Forcing the reader (or player) to assume that a character has changed from the previous game is bad writing, as this character's transformational arc needs to be shown in order to be incorporated into the story.

-Plot: in TLOU2, the plot drives the characters. While this isn't inherently bad, in a "character-driven" narrative it clashes with the overall goal of the story. It also exposes the writers and shows them moving the characters around like chess pieces instead of letting the characters organically tell the story.

The ludonarrative dissonance is pretty extreme, too, as the story being told in the cutscenes doesn't always match the story being told in the gameplay, but that's deviating away from the script and is more an issue with how the gameplay was implemented than how the script was written.

Okay, I probably won't be able to respond to all of this, but thank you for your perspective.

Have you seen Just Write's video regarding this game and why he enjoyed it? Curious what you think of his perspective as it compares to yours and if you think his reasoning is at least valid from his point of view.

 

[Papa Francouz]

Okay, I probably won't be able to respond to all of this, but thank you for your perspective.

Have you seen Just Write's video regarding this game and why he enjoyed it? Curious what you think of his perspective as it compares to yours and if you think his reasoning is at least valid from his point of view.

I have not seen that video. I don't really seek out media related to the game. I watched the other video that was posted, so I'll check this one out, too, when I get the chance.

Also, regardless of whatever Just Write has to say, his reasoning will absolutely be valid from his point of view. I hope it's not coming across like I'm invalidating the opinions of people who disagree with me, as that is not and has not been my intention. I'll try to respond to the content of the video after I get the chance to watch it.

 

[ArchAngel55]

Beat it twice now. Might go back and run thru the 1st again.

 

[Papa Francouz]

@ArGarBarGar I just finished watching the video you posted.

Things I agree with: the claim that storytelling in video games is quite different from other mediums, the acknowledgement of the "absurd extremes" of ludonarrative dissonance in TLOU2, the writers made Abby incredibly difficult to empathize with right off the bat.

Things I disagree with: treating the "good vs evil doesn't exist" trope as unique when it is far from unique, the claim that players will empathize with Abby just because they play as her.

Just Write makes some interesting claims, but it seems a lot of them are founded on the assumption that the audience playing the game is easily manipulated. His "Save the Cat" reference is a good one as it applies to TLOU2, but for a lot of people the stops the writers pulled out to garner sympathy for Abby didn't work. I will add that is was blatantly obvious what the writers wanted people to feel in those sections, as well, and a lot of people felt like the manipulation tactics used were cheap. Abby also didn't show enough remorse for her actions against Joel for players to side with her, which I think was a misstep.

Another area that should have been focused on is the sniper section with Abby, as it was painfully obvious that Tommy was the sniper, and that Abby was not going to kill him when she got to him since the player already knew he would be in the theater scene later on. That stripped the scene of all of its tension. At this point in the story, many players still hadn't empathized with Abby due to the writers not having the audience see her as anything more than Joel's killer, so the scene fell flat.

I agree with the obnoxiously titled video that the writers could have made life easier for themselves if they flipped the structure and didn't give Abby an insurmountable hill to climb right after her introduction, or if they told both Ellie's and Abby's story side-by-side. The structure ultimately let down the entire story, which is why I originally made the claim that the script didn't get workshopped or didn't get seen by enough people before it was greenlit for production. I get that the writers wanted to try something new, but just because they tried something new doesn't mean it's good; for a lot of people, the narrative structure didn't land and it hurt their experience playing the game. Furthermore, the point about the player clashing with the character they're playing as has been done before, and better. The obnoxiously titled video goes over this when it mentions unlikable protagonists.

Finally, touching on structure once more, I think the story went on for too long. There was a perfectly fine conclusion to the story, the denouement occurred, but then the epilogue completed ruined what should have been the ending. It lets off the gas, and then throws players right back into the conflict after the conclusion already happened, causing the ending to come across as unnecessary and the narrative to come across as being bloated.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I still don't think it makes sense for you to try and reverse engineer the issue that you think was with the writing, as if nobody every workshopped a poorly written story before.

I don't really agree with a good portion of what you said, but of all things that is the most perplexing to me.

I will absolutely agree about pacing, but I also do not think TLOU2 is unique among Naughty Dog games (to me everything they have made since the Jak and Daxter series has had pacing I am not a big fan of).

 

[Papa Francouz]

I still don't think it makes sense for you to try and reverse engineer the issue that you think was with the writing, as if nobody every workshopped a poorly written story before.

Sorry, can you be a little more specific with this? I don’t think I’m totally following what you’re saying.

 

[Fantomas]

Although I'm totally cool with the idea that some story-driven games should challenge classical forms of storytelling (goal-oriented protagonist, clear motivation, rising action, etc), I don't think Naughty Dog was the right studio for this. Ambition is good to have, but sometimes it's best to stick to your strengths. There's nothing wrong with crowd-pleasing adventures in the Spielberg mold.

But it seems to me Druckmann lacked the chops to make something edgier, and the leaks we've heard about working conditions at ND showed that they were over the head with this production. Of course many people have suffered for great art, like Herzog's crews working on Aguirre and Fitzcarraldo. But what a shame when all that effort results in a turd.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Sorry, can you be a little more specific with this? I don’t think I’m totally following what you’re saying.

Assigning a specific behind the scenes problem to what you perceive as bad structure without knowing whether or not that is the case. And you witnessing a lack of proper workshops leading to bad structure does not mean that all bad structure is caused by a lack of workshopping.

You are working backwards and assigning the source to a problem as if that is the only possible explanation, and I don't necessarily agree with that. This is creating a narrative that Druckmann was a one-man wrecking crew who didn't listen to criticism for this specific project.

 

[Papa Francouz]

Assigning a specific behind the scenes problem to what you perceive as bad structure without knowing whether or not that is the case. And you witnessing a lack of proper workshops leading to bad structure does not mean that all bad structure is caused by a lack of workshopping.

You are working backwards and assigning the source to a problem as if that is the only possible explanation, and I don't necessarily agree with that. This is creating a narrative that Druckmann was a one-man wrecking crew who didn't listen to criticism for this specific project.

I think there might have been a misunderstanding because I never meant to claim that I knew the workshopping history of this game's script. I was saying that similar issues are apparent in TLOU2 that are apparent in stories that aren't given a tough critique during the workshop phase of writing, or in stories where the writer takes critiques personally instead of constructively. It happens much more frequently than one might imagine, and it almost always results in a story that tries to break through the constraints of modern storytelling but fails to do so successfully.

I also never said Druckmann was at fault for the poor script, but I do think that could be the case. I was speculating based on my personal history with writing. I don't know anything about Druckmann apart from him being the director for the TLOU2 and that he came up with the initial story idea behind the first TLOU. I never meant for my opinion to be taken as fact, so my apologies if it came off that way.

 

[Tuggy]

Just finished the game and I really enjoyed it.

Just as much as the first one.

 

[kmart]

whether u like this game or not... its just a video game and u have rate it as such. i cant stand these gamers who become movie critics just to review this game..."the pacing was not right..." pls stfu. they act like they want a review for their review. the funny thing is... all the haters are coming back for part 3.

 

[Mikeaveli]

whether u like this game or not... its just a video game and u have rate it as such. i cant stand these gamers who become movie critics just to review this game..."the pacing was not right..." pls stfu. they act like they want a review for their review. the funny thing is... all the haters are coming back for part 3.

People only do that because the game takes itself so seriously and tries to make this grand artistic statement.

Personally I didn't get the hype for the first game and this one, even less so.

 

[LuLover96]

Absolutely loved this game. It made me feel exactly what the developers wanted me to feel. The idea behind the story was incredible to me, and the real world issues coming to fruition was perfect. Never ramming anything down your throat, but gave you enough so you understood the pain. I do have a few gripes with the game, but nothing major enough to make me dislike the game.

I loved this addition, unlike the new Star Wars trilogy. Naughty Dog made the game they wanted to make, and didn’t cater to fans at all. People die in this world, and it’s not always going to be pretty, nor are they going to get the light they “deserve.”

 

[BeLeafing]

Bought the game at launch but just finished it up for the first time for an abundance of reasons. It's been so long I'm not sure we need spoilers, but it can't hurt anyone. My thoughts:

Spoiler

I personally am not a big fan of how it played out. The Joel scene was necessary and I think that was executed fine. I quite enjoyed the first half of the game honestly, it was stellar. But, I couldn't get myself to feel bad for Abby, and that just evidently led to me being disinterested in the massive chunk of the story you play as her through the second half. I just felt like I was waiting to get back to Ellie the whole time. When I play through it again maybe I'll feel slightly different since I know what to expect, who knows.

Another point of contention for me is that the game just felt unnecessarily long. Like there were too many points where it could've been cut off, and it just led to a repetitive back and forth between the main characters. I think my perspective on the game would've been different, and overall more positive, if the game ended with Ellie on the farm with Dina and JJ. I didn't need that last hour. Maybe this is because I was overtly rooting for the Ellie/Dina relationship to work out though, so that's probably my mistake to expect that from ND. Overall I'm not sure they were interested in giving Ellie the happy ending, and probably were looking more so to set up the potential for a third game. Which I guess is fine if you do it right, but I don't think they did.

I do find it fascinating how polar opposite perspectives seem to be with this game though. Some loved it, and some like myself didn't enjoy it as much. I'll have to see how a second playthrough strikes me, but it didn't live up to the lofty expectations we set aside for it in my opinion.

 

[flyingkiwi]

I don't have a PS4 nor the willpower to play this game, but I do pay a bit of attention to the commentary around it.

I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think of NakeyJakey's take, on the game and Naughty Dog's design in general.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't have a PS4 nor the willpower to play this game, but I do pay a bit of attention to the commentary around it.

I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think of NakeyJakey's take, on the game and Naughty Dog's design in general.

When I saw the title I had a specific thing in mind when it comes to Naughty Dog games, and I am glad that it was pretty much what he talked about. Was a good video and his overall point is well constructed.

"Drake's Decision to Kill a Billion Man Men" killed me, too.