The Jim Benning & Management Megathread Part III

[ahmon]

Higgins' performance at ES over the past couple years is actually that of a solid 2nd line player, especially considering his defense. He's just an AWFUL PP guy and shouldn't be on the 2nd unit.

But yeah, ideally he should be on the 3rd line. But having weak scoring depth on the wings doesn't mean we should just be dumping the best players we have, who are also on good contracts.

having a hole in the 2nd line is not weak scoring depth the canucks have practically been lacking much secondary attack for the last decade.

Sedin Sedin Burrows
x Kesler X

That was our offense, falling squarely on 4 guys.

The Xs were clearly holes and thats not just "depth" those are critical scoring roles.

 

[RandV]

People did go on and on about it. Gillis took endless flack here (including from supporters of his like me) for the Ballard and Booth contracts. Big mistakes.

That said, Ballard was a contract that seemed reasonable and that we took on when it seemed he was a good player, and then his play fell off. Sbisa was signed to an absurd deal after we watched him be total garbage for a full season.

We got trapped with Booth largely thanks to injuries, but I always had the impression with Ballard that if something definite came along and we needed the space we could have moved him.

While we managed the cap to the narrowest of margins in 2011, after that there was always some space to play with. For example Ballard and Booth didn't prevent us from signing Jason Garrison. Ideally we'd be better off with a legit forward instead at that time, but it's hard to tell what was available.

If there was a mistake it would have to be not immediately trading Ballard that season after we got Hamhuis and Ballard wasn't working out in AV's system, when maybe he still had some value. Reality is though nearly every team floats a Ballard or two under their cap. Gillis just otherwise ran such a tight ship that some of our fans were over dramatic about it.

You could maybe try to apply that defense to Benning but the difference is that he's taking the waste a good bit further, and also that he blew the last of our cap space signing Sbisa and Dorsett early.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

It's not even worth discussing Vatanen being on the table for Kesler, just pie in the sky stuff. Maybe a guy like Theodore was in play.

 

[MS]

having a hole in the 2nd line is not weak scoring depth the canucks have practically been lacking much secondary attack for the last decade.

Sedin Sedin Burrows
x Kesler X

That was our offense, falling squarely on 4 guys.

The Xs were clearly holes and thats not just "depth" those are critical scoring roles.

Except this is normal for all teams in today's NHL. There are only a couple teams that have multiple 'line carriers' on the 2nd line.

You just listed Anaheim as your Cup favourite in another thread. They have Getzlaf, Perry, and Kesler ... and then their next-highest scoring forward is Silfverberg at 13 goals and 39 points. Then Pat Maroon at 9 goals and 34 points.

 

[ahmon]

What does this have to do with Higgins or his contract, though?

The fact that he can't be counted on to perform like a good 2nd line forward means he is a bottom 6 forward. no?

Then the question moving forward becomes, 32 year old Higgins on the 3rd line or a much younger Kenins on the 3rd line?

Personally I prefer Kenins, hence why I move look to move him.

Did I ever said Higgins was overpaid? Just because a player is underpaid doesn't mean they are not redundant.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

It's not even worth discussing Vatanen being on the table for Kesler, just pie in the sky stuff. Maybe a guy like Theodore was in play.

Which would have been immensely better, since our defensive depth is laughably bad. Granted, I think Vatanen was on the table. As I said, last year he was only a prospect getting his feet wet.

 

[MS]

We got trapped with Booth largely thanks to injuries, but I always had the impression with Ballard that if something definite came along and we needed the space we could have moved him.

While we managed the cap to the narrowest of margins in 2011, after that there was always some space to play with. For example Ballard and Booth didn't prevent us from signing Jason Garrison. Ideally we'd be better off with a legit forward instead at that time, but it's hard to tell what was available.

If there was a mistake it would have to be not immediately trading Ballard that season after we got Hamhuis and Ballard wasn't working out in AV's system, when maybe he still had some value. Reality is though nearly every team floats a Ballard or two under their cap. Gillis just otherwise ran such a tight ship that some of our fans were over dramatic about it.

You could maybe try to apply that defense to Benning but the difference is that he's taking the waste a good bit further, and also that he blew the last of our cap space signing Sbisa and Dorsett early.

I never particularly liked the Booth deal but yeah injuries obviously played a huge part there.

Ballard should have been moved in the summer of 2011 to keep Ehrhoff. Maybe Gillis' biggest single mistake.

It's not even worth discussing Vatanen being on the table for Kesler, just pie in the sky stuff. Maybe a guy like Theodore was in play.

It's pie-in-the-sky to think that Anaheim's 7th defender (at the time) with 56 career NHL games could have been included in a deal for a star player like Ryan Kesler?

And if Theodore could have been in the deal, great. That would have been just as good.

Our biggest organizational need - a puck-moving skill defender - was their biggest organizational strength. To not get Vatanen or Theodore back in that deal was utterly inexcusable.

 

[ahmon]

Except this is normal for all teams in today's NHL. There are only a couple teams that have multiple 'line carriers' on the 2nd line.

You just listed Anaheim as your Cup favourite in another thread. They have Getzlaf, Perry, and Kesler ... and then their next-highest scoring forward is Silfverberg at 13 goals and 39 points. Then Pat Maroon at 9 goals and 34 points.

and how did Silfverberg and Maroon perform in the playoffs?

Silfverberg 18pts in 16 games
Patrick Maroon 11 pts in 16 games

How are those players comparable? If Higgins had that kind of impact, I would be fine with him on the 2nd line.

 

[arttk]

The fact that he can't be counted on to perform like a good 2nd line forward means he is a bottom 6 forward. no?

Then the question moving forward becomes, 32 year old Higgins on the 3rd line or a much younger Kenins on the 3rd line?

Personally I prefer Kenins, hence why I move look to move him.

Did I ever said Higgins was overpaid? Just because a player is underpaid doesn't mean they are not redundant.

He is paid like a 3rd liner, him being played on the 2nd line is not his "fault".
I have no idea why you are blaming the scoring woes on Higgins considering that he is basically a 3rd liner played out of position.


I don't see how the choice is between Higgins and Kenins. It mores like Prust or Kenins.

 

[JuniorNelson]

Sedin Sedin Burrows
Baertschi Horvat Vrbata
Higgins Bonino Hansen
Prust Vey Dorsett

If this is the opening roster, Higgins makes a lot of sense. I'd like to have seen Higgins converted last deadline but that's not useful, now. This line-up doesn't offer much opportunity to rookies, though.

 

[Proto]

Exactly.

At this point it doesn't matter if Gillis was Sam Pollock or Mike Milbury. He had a good stretch, then a bad stretch, then - right or wrong - is gone and we have a new guy.

The new guy should be expected to excel and make quality moves for the franchise regardless of what happened before.

The constant referrals to Gillis are the defense of someone who has no defense for the moves Benning has made.

That's what irks me. The team not having a bevvy of young talent in the 21-25 year-old age group isn't an excuse to just haphazardly make moves to fill the age gap or to forgo value in trades. There isn't a requirement to have youth fit into an exact age bracket. It's a weird approach.

Besides, if they wanted some younger talent to fit that bracket, why not do what Chicago is doing and aggressively pursue young European kids like Thikanov and Panarin. The asset cost is nothing but a contract slot and you can keep your draft picks.

Not that I necessarily dislike all those moves that Benning made, but it just seemed like overkill.

 

[arttk]

and how did Silfverberg and Maroon perform in the playoffs?

Silfverberg 18pts in 16 games
Patrick Maroon 11 pts in 16 games

How are those players comparable? If Higgins had that kind of impact, I would be fine with him on the 2nd line.

Silfverberg is going to get paid as a 2nd liner since he is a RFA now. Do you think he is going to be signed to a 3rd liner price at 2.5?

Maroon was extended to a pretty long contract so yeah he is going to provide great value as a 2nd liner with a 3rd liner contract. If he continues to be this productive, he is going to get a 4-5M contract when his contract runs out.

 

[ahmon]

Silfverberg is going to get paid as a 2nd liner since he is a RFA now. Do you think he is going to be signed to a 3rd liner price at 2.5?

Maroon was extended to a pretty long contract so yeah he is going to provide great value as a 2nd liner with a 3rd liner contract. If he continues to be this productive, he is going to get a 4-5M contract when his contract runs out.

if you are going to interrupt a discussion at least know what we were discussing.

where did I say Higgins was overpaid?

 

[arttk]

That's what irks me. The team not having a bevvy of young talent in the 21-25 year-old age group isn't an excuse to just haphazardly make moves to fill the age gap or to forgo value in trades. There isn't a requirement to have youth fit into an exact age bracket. It's a weird approach.

Besides, if they wanted some younger talent to fit that bracket, why not do what Chicago is doing and aggressively pursue young European kids like Thikanov and Panarin. The asset cost is nothing but a contract slot and you can keep your draft picks.

Not that I necessarily dislike all those moves that Benning made, but it just seemed like overkill.

Yeah I don't understand the age gap obsession as well. It's like the only value 24-25 year old has is they should be pretty developed at that age and can counted on to produce. But if you can get young prospects at 20-22 to produce, there is really no difference at all. If you can play you can play, who cares if its 24/25 or 20-23.

If Horvat can play as a 2nd line center as early as this year, is anyone going to give a **** that we don't have a 24-25 year old playing center for us?

 

[arttk]

if you are going to interrupt a discussion at least know what we were discussing.

where did I say Higgins was overpaid?

Oh sorry didn't realize that this is an internet message board and that responding to messages requires explicit permission. /s

You didn't say he was overpaid, but you were *****ing about him being our 2nd liner when all things considered, he is a 3rd liner played out of position.

I guess that was what you were discussing about before you decided not to respond to that and instead started talking about how we should replace Higgins with Kenins.

Focus, remember?

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Silfverberg is going to get paid as a 2nd liner since he is a RFA now. Do you think he is going to be signed to a 3rd liner price at 2.5?

Maroon was extended to a pretty long contract so yeah he is going to provide great value as a 2nd liner with a 3rd liner contract. If he continues to be this productive, he is going to get a 4-5M contract when his contract runs out.

Maroon also plays on a line with Getzlaf and Perry. Put Higgins with the Sedins and he'll produce a lot more.

 

[MS]

and how did Silfverberg and Maroon perform in the playoffs?

Silfverberg 18pts in 16 games
Patrick Maroon 11 pts in 16 games

How are those players comparable? If Higgins had that kind of impact, I would be fine with him on the 2nd line.

Their playoff production came out of nowhere and who knows if it can be duplicated.

Point is that Anaheim is a 'Cup favourite' with 3 guys who scored more than 40 points last year.

That's what irks me. The team not having a bevvy of young talent in the 21-25 year-old age group isn't an excuse to just haphazardly make moves to fill the age gap or to forgo value in trades. There isn't a requirement to have youth fit into an exact age bracket. It's a weird approach.

Besides, if they wanted some younger talent to fit that bracket, why not do what Chicago is doing and aggressively pursue young European kids like Thikanov and Panarin. The asset cost is nothing but a contract slot and you can keep your draft picks.

Not that I necessarily dislike all those moves that Benning made, but it just seemed like overkill.

The whole thing is just bizarre and makes no sense.

If we'd traded assets for an obvious, high-quality long-term core player in that age range (Hamilton, Saad) ... great, I get it.

If we'd spent to bring in Euro guys like Panarin that cost no assets to help supplement that age range ... awesome, that makes perfect sense.

If we'd targeted young future core assets in the Kesler deal ... well, that should have been automatic but didn't happen.

Instead we do this weird, overpayment for failing prospects coming up on waivers thing. While at the same time trading our best existing assets in that age range (Kassian, Lack) for nothing. And taking a garbage 'now' package back for Kesler, which was our best opportunity to get these sort of assets.

It's just a mess. A dog chasing his tail.

 

[ahmon]

Maroon also plays on a line with Getzlaf and Perry. Put Higgins with the Sedins and he'll produce a lot more.

ironically Higgins played with Kesler,

and silfverberg played with Kesler. Yet both have very different performances in the playoffs.

 

[hlrsr]

Gillis was a very level-headed guy who would wear a mistake if necessary, but hated dealing with the media and the way he got his back up gave him an 'arrogant demeanor'.

That story from Duthie re: Gillis out in Boston bragging about building a championship team painted a picture of a pretty arrogant guy.

I ended up liking Gillis as GM but there were definitely some shady dealings around his initial hiring and he really came off as a snake oil salesman.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

ironically Higgins played with Kesler,

and silfverberg played with Kesler. Yet both have very different performances in the playoffs.

Silfverberg is a better player. No one is arguing that. As a result, his contract down the road will be twice that of Higgins'. It also should be noted Higgins only played four games with Kesler in the playoffs.

 

[arttk]

Maroon also plays on a line with Getzlaf and Perry. Put Higgins with the Sedins and he'll produce a lot more.

Well I think he might produce more but I think he might pull them down.
I am not anyone expected that out of Maroon so good on the Ducks to sign him onto a long term contract before that.

He basically put up Bickel like numbers in the post season and look what he got in his next contract.

 

[ahmon]

Their playoff production came out of nowhere and who knows if it can be duplicated.

Point is that Anaheim is a 'Cup favourite' with 3 guys who scored more than 40 points last year.

So you are just going to shrug it off.

I expected better from you.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

New thread is up