The Importance of Tough D Depth

Knies iT

Registered User
Mar 6, 2015
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Not just physical depth defenseman, but tough D. I miss the presence of a Mark Fraser esque blueliner. Yes, he was/is a career bottom pairing defenseman, and yes, his final stretch with the Leafs warranted him being let go. However, this team's lack of punch spanning the past two seasons is embarrassing. Now, i'm not advocating the recall of Orr & McLaren to reunite the bluebombers line, but the Leafs need an old fashioned defenseman who puts it all on the line. Fraser fought every and any heavyweight that posed a threat, he put his body on the line and stood in front of every shot (skull fracture). It was a treat watching that Fraser-Franson pairing, especially in the playoffs versus Boston; when sheltered, a depth player can be extremely effective.

Polak is a monster and a great mentor, but he's not overly mean; he has to be pushed to his limits for the cap to go off. Brewer is a shell of his former self and has lost his physical edge. MacWilliam, despite having a reputation as being a massive open ice hitter, lacks confidence to execute hits, can't fight, and isn't overly mean.

Last night during the Edmonton-Los Angeles game, the crew touched on how important the presence of Keith Aulie has been for the Oilers over the past few weeks. The Oil are constantly beat and battered, teams take liberties on their star players on a nightly basis (namely Hall over the past four seasons). Aulie has stepped in, with some increased minutes, and provided a much needed spark. He's a pretty garbage player skill-wise, but his minutes are sheltered, and he's effectively laying the boom on star players, defending his stars, fighting the rats, and giving his team an identity.

Boston has McQuaid, LA has guys like McNabb, St. Louis has Bortuzzo, New York has McIlrath (part-time), Anaheim has Stoner, and the list goes on. Go check out Alex Steen's recent interview on Robert Bortuzzo. He literally gushes over the guy and stresses how important he's been in developing momentum, protecting teammates, etc.

If the Leafs are going to commit to a rebuild, I don't want Marner or Strome taking a slap shot post-whistle from the opposition without the Toronto bench batting an eye. In 2013/14, all it took was for Kaleta to take an extra step in a hit on Franson for Fraser to come over the launch him down the ice. Noone went near the crease, and the captain didn't have to lead the team in fighting majors whilst having a broken hand. I'm all for giving ice-time to young, deserving Marlies players, but redundant pieces like Brewer, Erixon, etc. need to be disposed of for a player like Fraser, in my opinion. Obviously the goal is to get players of high quality with this grit, but going forward with this rebuild, it's much easier and more realistic to acquire a cheap player of this ilk who can create some sense of security and push back out there. This team is gutless.

You think this guy would let Thornton jump the rookie MacWilliam without answering the bell later that game?...






 

SprDaVE

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Sep 20, 2008
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Tough defenders (or players) are fine... but they need to have an ounce of hockey IQ, NHL skill and some sort of skating ability.

Fraser has been an AHL caliber player for his entire career with short stints in the NHL for a reason. Same goes for many of the names you listed. As long as they play low minutes and have cheap contracts, they are fine depth and can be useful. They really won't make a difference between a bad team and a successful one. They are easily found. I don't understand the connection between us being a good and bad team.

As much as some teams employ some of these players, a lot of the great teams don't employ those players at all, especially on defence.
 
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ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
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Polak is an excellent example of a tough Defenseman who can play, great pick up.
 

BoredBrandonPridham

Registered User
Aug 9, 2011
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Sure, tough NHL caliber bottom-pairing defensemen are great to have to help get the crowd pumped when you have a winning team.

Unfortunately, the Leafs won't have a winning team for a few more years while they try to acquire the pieces you actually need for a winning team. We'll be signing plenty of bottom pairing defenders in the off-seasons in the meantime though, and I'm sure lots of them will be tough. So keep your chin up!
 

Cor

I am a bot
Jun 24, 2012
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Roman Polak fills that spot perfectly. Petter Granberg also uses his size well. Don't need anymore "toughness"

Rielly - ?????
Percy - Polak
Gardiner - Granberg
 

Joey Hoser

Registered User
Jan 8, 2008
14,232
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Guelph
It's really not a issue we should be concerned with too much right now. We have an entire team and system to rebuild.

You need good PK guys too, but thats not really our priority at this point.
 

The Magic Man

With God given hands
Sep 1, 2008
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Hamilton, Ontario
I gotta agree with the OP on this one. Guys like Fraser can have a great use fit into the right D system. Our D is missing a lot of pieces and a losing season should never be blamed on the 6th Dman.

Other then a tough guy glare and the odd bear hug, Polak isn't intimidating. Everyone knows he's strong. But they also know he doesn't use it a lot. He's certainly not a sheriff type. I think I'd rather have Luke Schenn on the bottom pairing for next year. He still throws strong hits and will always engage other players if the need arises.
 

Rufio65*

Guest
Tim Erixon is redundant? Guy is still young and was a high pick for a reason.

He's also been traded 3 times and placed on waivers for a reason. He is not an option going forward, either is Granberg.

Mark Borowiecki is a perfect example of what the OP wants. Perfect bottom pairing guy, tough as nails, pays the price, and is great in the locker room.
 

SprDaVE

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Sep 20, 2008
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He's also been traded 3 times and placed on waivers for a reason. He is not an option going forward, either is Granberg.

Mark Borowiecki is a perfect example of what the OP wants. Perfect bottom pairing guy, tough as nails, pays the price, and is great in the locker room.

I find it interesting that Borowiecki is a perfect example of what we need in our lineup, considering he's 25 years old (26 this year) while bouncing between the AHL and the NHL constantly for the past 4-5 years, but Granberg as a 22 year old (23 this year) isn't an option going forward.

Just mind blowing.
 

Rufio65*

Guest
I find it interesting that Borowiecki is a perfect example of what we need in our lineup, considering he's 25 years old (26 this year) while bouncing between the AHL and the NHL constantly for the past 4-5 years, but Granberg as a 22 year old (23 this year) isn't an option going forward.

Just mind blowing.

Just because Boro didn't become a full time NHLer until 25 doesn't mean that Granberg will. They are 2 totally different players with 2 totally different career trajectories. They actually aren't that similar because Granberg isn't even as close to as tough, mean and physical as Boro ever was.
 

SprDaVE

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Sep 20, 2008
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Just because Boro didn't become a full time NHLer until 25 doesn't mean that Granberg will. They are 2 totally different players with 2 totally different career trajectories. They actually aren't that similar because Granberg isn't even as close to as tough, mean and physical as Boro ever was.

Granberg is fairly physical, blocks a ton of shots and is incredibly strong. I'll argue he's one of the strongest players physically in the entire Leaf organization.

Granberg doesn't fight though... so I guess he isn't mean.

Borowiecki will find himself on the waiver wire in the near future, just like most players of his ilk. Let's hope Granberg can have a better trajectory.
 

agropop

Registered User
Mar 3, 2011
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Windsor
We could easily add some beef to the lineup, the market is flooded with cheap 4th liners and bottom pairing guys. It would make us tougher to play against, but not necessarily better. What we've been missing is anyone with jam in our top 6 or top 4 playing meaningful minutes. Much harder to find.
 

Rufio65*

Guest
Granberg is fairly physical, blocks a ton of shots and is incredibly strong. I'll argue he's one of the strongest players physically in the entire Leaf organization.

Granberg doesn't fight though... so I guess he isn't mean.

Borowiecki will find himself on the waiver wire in the near future, just like most players of his ilk. Let's hope Granberg can have a better trajectory.

Yeah, Borocop won't be on waivers any time in the near future. I live in Ottawa.. hes playing well, the fans love him, the organization loves him and so do his teammates. I definitely don't see Granberg as an NHL player, but I will admit that he has improved his puck handling and passing a lot.
 

Banic

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Jun 23, 2010
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Toronto
Just because Boro didn't become a full time NHLer until 25 doesn't mean that Granberg will. They are 2 totally different players with 2 totally different career trajectories. They actually aren't that similar because Granberg isn't even as close to as tough, mean and physical as Boro ever was.


Also doesn't mean a younger Tim Erixon can't improve. Your opinion is simple bias for toughness.
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
52,533
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Yeah, Borocop won't be on waivers any time in the near future. I live in Ottawa.. hes playing well, the fans love him, the organization loves him and so do his teammates. I definitely don't see Granberg as an NHL player, but I will admit that he has improved his puck handling and passing a lot.

I also live in Ottawa. The things you're saying about 'Borocop' they also said about Carkner. Want to guess where he is now?

Also want to guess how many people thought Borowiecki didn't have much NHL potential as a 22-23 year old? If Borowiecki can get until he's 25 to solidify a bottom pairing job and heralded as a fantastic defender, I'm sure Granberg can get the same benefit of the doubt from you surely.

I like Borowieki but he's a bottom pairing defender and has zero growth in his game moving forward. Likely to be in and out in the lineup if/when Ottawa gets better defenders. He's signed for a couple more years, so he's got that going for him.
 
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Super Mega

Registered User
Jun 29, 2013
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Polak is tough as nails, I actually cant think of a better tough guy that can play decent hockey than him.

I am one of the few fans still of fighting / physical players in your line-up but does OP actually think that would have changed this season much?

Way too many soft, self entitled one dimensional guys make up this team, you cant just inject a few goons and have that culture change
 

Rufio65*

Guest
I also live in Ottawa. The things you're saying about 'Borocop' they also said about Carkner.

Want to guess where he is now?

Carkner could not keep up with the pace of the game, he was almost 250 pounds at one point for the Sens. Just because they play "similar" styles, doesn't mean that they will have similar career paths. Borowiecki has been more effective this season than Carkner ever was in his time in the NHL. I don't want to de rail this thread.

This team has been pushed around for long enough and I agree 100% with the OP. When Dion Phaneuf is the toughest Dman in the lineup (by far) then you are in trouble. Adam McQuaid is a free agent this summer and would be a great addition to the lineup.
 

The Magic Man

With God given hands
Sep 1, 2008
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Hamilton, Ontario
How about we get 4 legit top-4 defenders on our roster first?

If we had that we wouldn't be rebuilding. Adding a rugged 6th D may be one of the easiest and cheapest options in July, and the truth is, with a small and young team, we will need it if we don't want our young guys going into a shell. It'll be hard enough on them as it is in this spotlight.
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
52,533
34,331
Carkner could not keep up with the pace of the game, he was almost 250 pounds at one point for the Sens. Just because they play "similar" styles, doesn't mean that they will have similar career paths. Borowiecki has been more effective this season than Carkner ever was in his time in the NHL. I don't want to de rail this thread.

This team has been pushed around for long enough and I agree 100% with the OP. When Dion Phaneuf is the toughest Dman in the lineup (by far) then you are in trouble. Adam McQuaid is a free agent this summer and would be a great addition to the lineup.

So no one comapres to the great Borowiecki? I mean, who the hell compares to his career path? A 25 year old bottom pairing tough guy with around 90 NHL games aren't exactly rare here... I fail to see how they are different. Mark Fraser is more apt of a comparison? Where is he now?

I'm not against tough defenders to play a small role. I think we have a couple coming up that can fit that role just fine in MacWilliam and Granberg, both very strong and physical. If they can't keep up with the pace of the NHL for whatever the reason, then you can easily sign one up in free agency for the league minimum... you just have to find a proper defender that won't be detrimental to your lineup for the sake of punching a face.

McQuaid would be a fine pickup... but at what cost? Holzer will be available aas well and he's pretty tough.

And you forgot that Polak is still apart of this team.
 

The Magic Man

With God given hands
Sep 1, 2008
7,495
117
Hamilton, Ontario
Polak is tough as nails, I actually cant think of a better tough guy that can play decent hockey than him.

I am one of the few fans still of fighting / physical players in your line-up but does OP actually think that would have changed this season much?

Way too many soft, self entitled one dimensional guys make up this team, you cant just inject a few goons and have that culture change

He's more then capable, he just doesn't engage as easily as I'd like to see. Dirty looks don't scare anyone.
 

Rufio65*

Guest
Rielly
Provorov
Gardiner
McQuaid
Polak
Robidas (not a huge fan, but we gave him the contract..)

This would be a good mix of players IMO.
 

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