The Ignorance of History In Mainstream

[Retsmra2010*]

media is astounding. Listening to one of the local sports stations in Toronto this morning, The Fan, and Roenick is taking up his usual place in the passenger seat.

they had one of the authors for Top 100 players by position of all-time from the hockey news and Roenick actually said he was pissed he wasn't one of the top 20 centres. The reason? Because if he went and played against Syl Apps today, he'd dominate him.

Click to read more...

 

[tarheelhockey]

I wouldn't consider Roenick a voice of the mainstream...

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Geez, I like Jeremy, I really do, but he's not even amongst the 20 best centers I've seen, let alone all time. Guys I saw in the NHL who were better:

Clarke
Sittler
Perreault
Lemaire
Hawerchuk
Gretzky
Messier
Stastny
Savard
Trottier
Dionne
Yzerman
Thornton
Lemieux
Francis
Crosby
Sedin
Sundin
Forsberg
Modano
Lafontaine
Damphousse
Ratelle
Esposito
Fedorov

and so on and so on....

 

[BraveCanadian]

Well in Roenick's defense, he may be past his prime and retired but Syl Apps is dead.

I think Roenick would outplay Apps today too.

 

[Retsmra2010*]

Well in Roenick's defense, he may be past his prime and retired but Syl Apps is dead.

I think Roenick would outplay Apps today too.

Well yes, lol but that was his logic. \

As for mainstream, the Fan 590 is arguable the most mainstream sports station in Toronto, especially the morning show. The host, Andrew Krystal, agreed, and then Don Cherry came on and agreed.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Syl Apps Jr

Perhaps Jeremy Roenick had Syl Apps Jr in mind.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The host, Andrew Krystal, agreed, and then Don Cherry came on and agreed.

Well, that's just stupid. I hope people can recognize the fallacy here.

 

[shazariahl]

Well, that's just stupid. I hope people can recognize the fallacy here.

The problem is that they can't. We've seen it over and over on the main boards here. We see it again and again in the media. We even hear it from the stars of yesterday, when people like Gretzky say that the league is so much better now, or that players are so much faster or stronger. Stronger? Yes, I'd agree to that. Faster? Maybe as a whole - certainly newer and better skates have helped with that. But people like Gartner were putting up times at the ASG which are better than most people today are doing. Guys like Coffey were just FAST - no matter how you look at it. Having better skates would only make him faster still.

I'm not sure how much the stars of yesterday even believe it - I think there's always a sense of awe and mystery to something when you are looking at it from the outside. But when you're there, in the moment, it just kinda happens, and you don't appreciate how special it is.

I remember playing in one ball hockey tournament, and I made 5 or 6 saves over the course of the tournament that my friends were talking about forever. But I hadn't really thought much about any of them. At the time I was like "wow, got lucky there," or "thank God he didn't go high when he had me down", or "woah, that was a pretty nice save I just made", but nothing really seemed legendary to me, like it did to my friends. I can't help but think though, that if I were to watch those games on video now, having no real memory of specifics of any of the games, that I'd think "wow, I was really good back then".

I think its the same a lot with players. Its easy for guys to see the new generation of stars and think "I could never keep up with these guys", but we've seen tons of players who've managed to go 20 year careers, and have been able to not just keep up with the newer generation of talent, but still dominate it. Hopefully yesterday's heroes actually realize just how special they were, and that being newer doesn't automatically make these players "better".

 

[Retsmra2010*]

My biggest issue was, that the contributor from THN did not respond the way he should have. I would have like to hear a full debate as opposed to him letting the on-air personalities run him over. He basically kept saying well that's your opinion, etc. nothing of real substance.

The people that don't stick up for the reasons are as much to blame as those who believe the fallacy.


You can hear the interview here:

http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20110119_082025_12200

 

[Derick*]

I love JR as much as the next guy - more, actually - but that's absurd.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

My biggest issue was, that the contributor from THN did not respond the way he should have. I would have like to hear a full debate as opposed to him letting the on-air personalities run him over. He basically kept saying well that's your opinion, etc. nothing of real substance.

The people that don't stick up for the reasons are as much to blame as those who believe the fallacy.


You can hear the interview here:

http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20110119_082025_12200

Who was the THN guy? Maybe he had no idea who half the older players on the list were.

 

[Retsmra2010*]

Alan Adams.

It's all there in that link.

 

[BigFatCat999]

To me as an American with a love of history and sport, hockey hasn't had a storyteller to tell the stories of hockey. Looking at hockey's history, it's the most politically intriguing sport in the world based on it's geographic popularity. (Northern hemisphere). No one sport, except maybe soccer, can claim as many politically charged moments as hockey.

Summit series
Miracle on ice
Rocket Richaud Riots

And that's just North America and the Cold War.

I think it's a part of hockey's personality, the shy humble roots of the game and the people who play it.

 

[seventieslord]

Excellent example highlighting the mainstream's media complete lack of perspective on matters like this.

 

[Stray Wasp]

If it's any consolation, this phenomenon is not unique to hockey. Ask, for instance, anyone who contends that black and white movies are good. To some modern moviegoers, that's as outlandish a statement as suggesting the earth is flat. Soccer likewise suffers from many devotees scandalously ignorant of the game's history.

The problem is that for people trying to sell the "product"-and line their pockets in so doing- fans with no sense of history are ideal because they'll swallow everything they are fed unquestioningly.

The type of person who'd say Gretzky couldn't score in the modern NHL is the sort of person most likely to buy an Official Sidney Crosby sky hook without hesitation.

 

[justsomeguy]

Lack of appreciation for and knowledge of the past is endemic in present day society. Not just in mainstream sports media.

Mr. Roenick strikes me as someone who has always been fonder of Mr. Roenick than most of the rest of the world was/is.

 

[TheStranger]

Geez, I like Jeremy, I really do, but he's not even amongst the 20 best centers I've seen, let alone all time. Guys I saw in the NHL who were better:

Clarke
Sittler
Perreault
Lemaire
Hawerchuk
Gretzky
Messier
Stastny
Savard
Trottier
Dionne
Yzerman
Thornton
Lemieux
Francis
Crosby
Sedin
Sundin
Forsberg
Modano
Lafontaine
Damphousse
Ratelle
Esposito
Fedorov

and so on and so on....

Sakic sucks

 

[Rhiessan71]

The type of person who'd say Gretzky couldn't score in the modern NHL is the sort of person most likely to buy an Official Sidney Crosby sky hook without hesitation.

Hahahaha

I like that, really cracked me up man nice job.

 

[Boxscore]

I agree. This is one of the biggest problems I have with the Bettman-lead NHL today. It is all about marketing, highlight videos, hype and media being used as mouthpieces to promote the current game at all costs. I have seen announcers who I have respected over the years (like Bill Clement) do a 180 on his views of the game.

Now, I could see the NHL marketing the players today. The great speed. Crosby. Ovechkin. The Pens vs. Caps rivalry. That is their job as a professional sports league and enterprise.

But a large percentage of the media who covers hockey in North America have become one-trick ponies. They are like wind-up dolls where you pull the string and they all repeat the same things:

"Sidney Crosby is showing why he could be considered on the level of Wayne Gretzky."

"Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin have one of the most heated rivalries in hockey history."

"The league needs to do something about hits to the head."

"It was a clean check, why did his teammates have to fight to defend him."

"The NHL has never been better."

I mean, do any of these "credible" media types actually believe most of the junk they are recycling? I think they are all worried about their jobs and do what they think their networks and the NHL want them to do. Not to go all conspiracy here, but right now the NHL reminds me of the United States government - with the way they control the media to push their agenda.

Someone in this thread said it best - the NHL has so many great stories to tell, but instead of embracing their history and unique nostalgia, they run from it, almost as if they are a wanted man on the run who has changed his appearance and moved across the globe to start a new life somewhere unnoticed.

So what if the game was slower in the 70s. So what if hockey sticks used to be flat, chunky pieces of lumber. So what if sellout crowds used to cheer on bench-clearing brawls while smoking cigars. So what if players used to be built like average Joes and held second jobs in the summer to make ends meet. These things are what made hockey great. The NHL (and moreso the media) should not be ashamed of these things.

A large portion of fans today have been brainwashed by the NHL and the media. They would have no idea what to do with themselves if they went back in a Delorean to witness the all-time greats. Richard, Howe, Beliveau, Lafleur, Hull, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux. Today it seems like these guys are bible folklore; heroes of ancient writings that are being passed off as exaggerated babble.

Shame on the NHL. Shame on the media who are supposed to study the game and present an unbiased view. And shame on the fans who are too lazy to discover the roots of their favorite sport and appreciate the past game and its players for their greatness.

 

[canucksfan]

It used to drive me nuts when I would go over to the main board and read how some people believed that players in the 70's suck compared to players today. I don't bother with that anymore and the posters who believe this are typically very young and ignorant.

However, the media is a different story. These are paid professionals who should be able to understand how one can compare different players from different eras. It's not that hard to comprehend. I was watching something on Lidstrom stating how he is the best defensemen ever. This was on Global News (B.C. feed) a for weeks back. The only reason given was he had a lot of Norris Trophies and faced tougher competition. The tough competition was defined as Lidstrom played in a thirty team league and Orr played in a six team league (even though Orr didn't and again it shows what kind of quality research they did).

I don't see baseball, soccer, basketball or football do this.

 

[lextune]

We can't even cure the ignorance of the majority of posters in the History section.

Doing so in the media is an impossibility.

 

[lextune]

Geez, I like Jeremy, I really do, but he's not even amongst the 20 best centers I've seen, let alone all time. Guys I saw in the NHL who were better:

Clarke
Sittler
Perreault
Lemaire
Hawerchuk
Gretzky
Messier
Stastny
Savard
Trottier
Dionne
Yzerman
Thornton
Lemieux
Francis
Crosby
Sedin
Sundin
Forsberg
Modano
Lafontaine
Damphousse
Ratelle
Esposito
Fedorov

and so on and so on....

Sakic sucks

....nice.

I think we can cut PPJoe some slack and call it an oversight.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't see baseball, soccer, basketball or football do this.

Agree. The baseball and football media revere in particular the old timers, whether it be Jim Brown or Babe Ruth.

I don't know why the hockey media is uninterested in the history of the game. I think part of the problem is that due to changing season lengths and the ebbs and flows goals per game, it's hard to compare eras using basic stats. So it's easy to say "Gordie Howe never scored 50 goals" or "Bobby Orr played when the league was super watered down!" or "Wayne Gretzky played when goalies didn't know what they were doing!"

 

[Boxscore]

I don't know why the hockey media is uninterested in the history of the game.

Dollars and cents, plain and simple. The NHL is now marketing the game as "better than ever" and the only way to do that successfully is to brainwash people into believing the game sucked before and is great now. Unfortunately, a byproduct of that rationale is over-hyping Sidney Crosby (who is a great player) to extent where the media is now comparing him to Gretzky and Lemieux. The NHL and the media want everyone to believe that we are witnessing the Golden Era of NHL hockey and Sidney Crosby is the greatest ever. Why? Because if this helps grow the game, ultimately the NHL and the media each profit from it.

 

[Canadarocks]

If it's any consolation, this phenomenon is not unique to hockey. Ask, for instance, anyone who contends that black and white movies are good. To some modern moviegoers, that's as outlandish a statement as suggesting the earth is flat. Soccer likewise suffers from many devotees scandalously ignorant of the game's history.

The problem is that for people trying to sell the "product"-and line their pockets in so doing- fans with no sense of history are ideal because they'll swallow everything they are fed unquestioningly.

The type of person who'd say Gretzky couldn't score in the modern NHL is the sort of person most likely to buy an Official Sidney Crosby sky hook without hesitation.

I think the reverse is just as common, if not more. Go to anything on youtube that's at least 10 years old (tv show, music video, etc..) and there's a very good chance that somebody will say "This is so much better than the crap we have today." It's often the highest rated comment too.