The Hockey News Top 100 Defensemen of all-time (special edition magazine)

[vadim sharifijanov]

i am watching hockey night in canada right now and kelly hrudey said a former nhl dman emailed
him midgame to say cale makar is the best dman since bobby orr

elliotte asks kelly what he thinks and he says he agrees

that means 23 year old makar is better than potvin, bourque, pronger, and lidstrom. and ftr this is from a guy who literally played with potvin, robinson, and coffey, albeit all of them
well removed from their peaks.

had to write this somewhere to mark down that yes this was a thing that was said. this thread was bumped at just the right time.

not to say makar isn’t hella good of course. he’s unreal.

 

[Boxscore]

i am watching hockey night in canada right now and kelly hrudey said a former nhl dman emailed
him midgame to say cale makar is the best dman since bobby orr

elliotte asks kelly what he thinks and he says he agrees

that means 23 year old makar is better than potvin, bourque, pronger, and lidstrom. and ftr this is from a guy who literally played with potvin, robinson, and coffey, albeit all of them
well removed from their peaks.

had to write this somewhere to mark down that yes this was a thing that was said. this thread was bumped at just the right time.

not to say makar isn’t hella good of course. he’s unreal.

Makar is absolutely incredible. Series clinching game and he has 5 points while playing very good defense.

 

[The Panther]

Quite the bump.

Interested in the Lidstrom versus Bourque conversation. I can certainly understand Ray's supporters, but the outrage at Lidstrom being ranked above him seems unjustified.

Bourque: 5 Norris Trophies; 13 times 1st Team All-Star; Regular Season: 1,612 games, 410G, 1,169A; Playoffs: 1 Stanley Cup, 214 games, 41G, 139A

Lidstrom: 7 Norris Trophies; 10 times 1st Team All-Star; Regular Season: 1,564 games, 264G, 878A; Playoffs: 4 Stanley Cups, 1 Conn Smythe, 263 games, 54G, 129A

Bourque was better offensively, and I don't know any serious hockey fan who doesn't cherish seeing him finally lift the Cup in his last game as one of the greatest memories of the sport. Lidstrom was rightly celebrated for the ease with which he could dominate defensively, with his positioning and anticipation much more so than with physicality. He also benefited from being on better teams than Borque.

Seems like a tossup to a neutral fan like me.

Yes, there's a fair case that it's a toss-up.

I think the distinguishing point for those (like me) who slightly prefer Bourque (aside from the total nutters, such as proliferate on the Main board) is the fact that Bourque, for pretty much his entire Boston career of 20 years or whatever, had to carry nearly the whole load himself. Whereas Lidstrom -- though he may have been capable of that -- rarely had to, as for pretty much his entire career, start to finish, Detroit was stacked with top players.

This in itself doesn't mean that Bourque was "better" than Lidstrom. But it suggests that if their achievements were roughly comparable, Bourque was actually doing more as he had a much heavier load to carry. Bourque was basically depended on to be Boston's #1 offensive player and #1 defensive player for most of his career. (There are some exceptions, such as the very early 80s and around 1993.)

Then, there is the fact that even when they were head-to-head in the NHL, from 1991 to 2002, Bourque comes out slightly ahead in All Star nods and hardware. And this is starting 12 years into his career.

Finally, you could also add in that Bourque was Boston's #1 Dman from the moment he donned the uniform in autumn 1979 until he left in 2000. By contrast, it's arguably around his sixth season when Lidstrom became Detroit's top Dman (although perhaps the competition was tougher).

Anyway, just food for thought. I agree that no one should be outraged with Lidstrom being ranked higher, even though I personally don't. (Not that I care much about ranking players.)

i am watching hockey night in canada right now and kelly hrudey said a former nhl dman emailed
him midgame to say cale makar is the best dman since bobby orr

There could well be a Conn Smythe trophy in Makar's (very near) future.

 

[Michael Farkas]

i am watching hockey night in canada right now and kelly hrudey said a former nhl dman emailed
him midgame to say cale makar is the best dman since bobby orr

elliotte asks kelly what he thinks and he says he agrees

that means 23 year old makar is better than potvin, bourque, pronger, and lidstrom. and ftr this is from a guy who literally played with potvin, robinson, and coffey, albeit all of them
well removed from their peaks.

had to write this somewhere to mark down that yes this was a thing that was said. this thread was bumped at just the right time.

not to say makar isn’t hella good of course. he’s unreal.

I also took note of this and my fiance and cat heard all about my displeasure with the statement. I get it, Hrudey was put on the spot and he's an enabler for whatever is said...Makar is a phenom talent, but it's his third season, let's just see what happens for a little bit...

 

[Pominville Knows]

I also took note of this and my fiance and cat heard all about my displeasure with the statement. I get it, Hrudey was put on the spot and he's an enabler for whatever is said...Makar is a phenom talent, but it's his third season, let's just see what happens for a little bit...

But the statement said that he was the best defenseman someone had seen since Orr. That is referring to present day Makar, not his body of work.
I'm not saying Yeay or Neay to such a statement since i dont watch full games since a number of years back, but i happened to search for a Makar highlight video on YouTube as late as this morning and i have to say that his movements in most regards are something to be seen for sure, as i'm sure most if not all of you allready know. That detail i'm not sure i have seen since Orr anyways, he's like Makarov or something in his slipperyness, if not better actually.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sure, if that's the case, then the answer is Karlsson...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

If you think about it, this makes sense. Seventies said it's NHL-only, so we're looking at 102 seasons. If we look at them from the season they all became regulars, we're looking at 179 total seasons or an average of 12.8 seasons for each of them at this point. 12.8/102 is 12.5, so 14% of the top defensemen coming from 12.5% of the seasons seems about right. Even if we take out Chara, who has played forever, we're looking at an average of 12.2 seasons for now 13% of the list so it doesn't change much.

realize i'm responding to an old post, but the makar thing last night made me think of this

so the "current" players on the list that comprise the 14% of the list in 12.5% of the seasons is these guys —

23. Chara​

26. Keith​

27. Karlsson​

31. Doughty​

45. Weber​

48. Burns​

50. Hedman​

61. Suter​

66. Pietrangelo​

68. Subban​

70. Carlson​

72. Letang​

76. Giordano​

79. Josi​

but that doesn't count guys who are very young right now who might go on to top 100 careers. makar, heiskanen, fox, hughes... i'm just throwing out names but the lower guys on that list, subban, carlson, letang, giordano, you'd have to remove them for four guys who we just don't know about yet right?

that said, i'll eat my hat if makar isn't in the top 100 dmen all time by he end of the next presidency. by the end of the finals, he'll almost certainly have already outscored housley's entire career in the playoffs.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Sure, if that's the case, then the answer is Karlsson...

Okey, i'm sure you are referring to peak-Karlsson now, but aside from perhaps speed Karlsson did not move like Makar. I'm not necessarily talking about edgework here or lateral movements, Makar creates distance to the opponent in a very unusual way.

But sure, peak-Karlsson might very well have been a better player than present playoff 2022 Cale Makar.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Well, right, that's what they're saying...they're taking athletic prime, prime situation, no long runs, no injuries, no problems Makar and going, "all right, I'm all set" - when you judge players on 20, 50, 100 game stretches you open up the world to any possibility...in a negative way, imo...

There was a similarly brief moment where Karlsson might have been the best player in the world...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Okey, i'm sure you are referring to peak-Karlsson now, but aside from perhaps speed Karlsson did not move like Makar. I'm not necessarily talking about edgework here or lateral movements, Makar creates distance to the opponent in a very unusual way.

But sure, peak-Karlsson might very well have been a better player than present playoff 2022 Cale Makar.

that's very true. i tuned into last night's game when it was 4-4 in the third. even though his team had the man advantage makar was just toying with edmonton before the 5-4 goal. just subtle little changes to his body angle where he backs the defender away from three or more strides. i've seen quinn hughes do that too, but not consistently and not to the same degree as makar.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Well, right, that's what they're saying...they're taking athletic prime, prime situation, no long runs, no injuries, no problems Makar and going, "all right, I'm all set" - when you judge players on 20, 50, 100 game stretches you open up the world to any possibility...in a negative way, imo...

There was a similarly brief moment where Karlsson might have been the best player in the world...

Yes, Makar most probably is NOT the best defenseman since Orr even at this instant, but some old player apparantly thinks so but may change his mind at any time when and if Makar does not continue this way. Or(r) if he takes a breather and reminds himself about some other D that once played the best since Orr. The difference here though is that Makar is still playing so there is a possibility for him to prolong this, which i think should be worth something at the very least.

 

[crobro]

What’s ranking for

Mark Howe
Steve Duchane
Serge Savard

 

[wetcoast]

that's very true. i tuned into last night's game when it was 4-4 in the third. even though his team had the man advantage makar was just toying with edmonton before the 5-4 goal. just subtle little changes to his body angle where he backs the defender away from three or more strides. i've seen quinn hughes do that too, but not consistently and not to the same degree as makar.

The thing is that Makar is really that good right now though.

Sure there is some hyperbole going on but this is always the case and I remember some in the hockey establishment downplaying Grettzy for a short while in the early 80s.

With a couple more, like literally less than 10 games missed to inquires in the last 2 seasons we could be seeing a Dman with 2 Norris trophies and a Conn Smythe all before his 24th birthday and he has some good defensive play to go with elite offense as well.

I think that some would put him in the top 100 right now if they are high peak/playoffs are really important type of evaluators.

 

[VanIslander]

I have three litmus tests for any greatest dmen ever lists:

1. Is Eddie Gerard or Slava Fetisov top 10? (Trick question. Both should be, only era or locale bias could exclude them.)

2. Is Pronger mentioned? No top list of dmen could at least consciously pan Prongs. Reject him in public, by all means. But pan him? Ignoramus.

3. Is Bourque outside your top 3? Then GTFO of here!

 

[jigglysquishy]

I have three litmus tests for any greatest dmen ever lists:

1. Is Eddie Gerard top 10?

What's the argument for him being in top 10? Or are you saying Sprague Cleghorn should also be top 10 (making it 3 pre war defenseman in top 10)?

Cleghorn was considered better than Gerard by peers and has largely kept a stronger reputation since then.

 

[wetcoast]

What's the argument for him being in top 10? Or are you saying Sprague Cleghorn should also be top 10 (making it 3 pre war defenseman in top 10)?

Cleghorn was considered better than Gerard by peers and has largely kept a stronger reputation since then.

Pretty much this and Fetisov didn't age well at all, for a guy inside the top 10 all time, in an era when many others did.

 

[Overrated]

Pretty much this and Fetisov didn't age well at all, for a guy inside the top 10 all time, in an era when many others did.

He didn't seem to have any issue playing with the Russian Five at 37.

 

[buffalowing88]

To back up Hrudey/current analysts blowing smoke up Makar's ass, Ryan Whitney said last week that Makar is the best defenseman he's seen in years and compared him to Orr.

Before the bArStOoL gUyS aRe fAcIsTs rebuttals, Whitney is pretty highly regarded among the NHL player community and is not one for exaggerating.

I personally don't quite see it and I still am not putting Makar ahead of peak-Karlsson or Doughty in particular from the past decade or so. But it's out there and people seem to think it's legit. Whitney said that Makar's side-to-side skating is Orr-esque and I can see that, at least.

 

[wetcoast]

He didn't seem to have any issue playing with the Russian Five at 37.

Ironic in that his play when elite or even excellent is part of a group of 5 though right?

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Before the bArStOoL gUyS aRe fAcIsTs rebuttals

Can’t really take the “fAsCiSt” remark seriously, but if anything they are certainly sexist fratboy jocks, and extremely cringeworthy at times (though they’ve adjusted some of the more questionable parts of their old banter), one calls himself liberal and one supported Trump, but they’re great at creating an environment where hockey players feel comfortable expressing themselves, though obviously retired players are the better interviews in this regard. SC is a pretty awesome source for stories from past NHL generations, different minor leagues, the KHL, about different people and personalities in hockey, from people who were there. I don’t think you could do that show quite as well without the cringeworthy pubescent locker room banter.

I’m not sure I would name any of them authorities on player evaluation though. Comparing any active player to Orr is cheap as hell, and it happens every goddamned year with someone. Whitney more than Bissonette probably can make worthwhile arguments about what it is with certain defensemen that makes them so good, but that’s not saying too much. Whitney definitely tends to sound tremendously clueless about any hockey prior to his late teens and relies pretty heavily on hockeydb statlines unless he’s interviewing a former teammate or has been clued in on what to ask by someone else. RA has a tendency to ask dud questions about weirdly specific moments or whatnot, but it’s apparent he’s been around the game for a while longer and either remembers old stories and moments, or does actual research prior to interviews.

 

[Overrated]

Ironic in that his play when elite or even excellent is part of a group of 5 though right?

None of the green liners did well though, even Makarov underperformed he was still among the best players in the world before joining the NHL. It seems to be more their inability to play the North American hockey style rather than poor aging. Larionov had a poor first season then continued to be an integral part of the Wings even in his 40s.

 

[JackSlater]

None of the green liners did well though, even Makarov underperformed he was still among the best players in the world before joining the NHL. It seems to be more their inability to play the North American hockey style rather than poor aging. Larionov had a poor first season then continued to be an integral part of the Wings even in his 40s.

I don't know, I think that Makarov was very good to start his NHL career and Larionov ended up being very effective as well. I don't think that Fetisov's time in the NHL is a plus or a minus for his career. Ultimately he was not all that good in the NHL, if we consider his all time status, but there are reasons for that and they are valid. That Fetisov was good when placed in a very unique and basically perfect situation with Detroit doesn't mean a whole lot for him either though, given how few players get to play in basically their ideal situation. He's a great player who struggled when shifting to a drastically different style in a very different lifestyle. Still a great, historically noteworthy player.

 

[The Panther]

Larionov had a poor first season then continued to be an integral part of the Wings even in his 40s.

Fully in his 40s with Detroit (last two seasons there), Larionov scored 21 goals in 144 games and was a minus 12. I don't know if I'd call that "integral". Did all right in the playoffs, though.

But this is typical of a tendency we have to over-regard late careers of players on dominant teams.

 

[cupcrazyman]

Where is Borje Salming ?

 

[norrisnick]

My biggest issue with the "best defenseman since Orr!" hyperboles is more often than not when the dust settles we're looking at a guy that doesn't measure up to Coffey or Leetch. But those comparisons don't make for clickbaity article/clip/podcast titles.

The rovers/4th forwards should run the gauntlet of Housley, Karlsson, Leetch, Coffey before they bother with Orr.