Post-Game Talk: The Greiss is Right | Pens - 1, Isles - 2

[IcedCapp]

Sid was **** and needed to retire after 32 games.

Until Kessel can't skate and stops going to the net and stops getting multiple HQSC per game, I'm going to trust life to equal out.

 

[JakeNBake59]

Halak out 6 weeks (thats into the playoffs right?) so they are going to have to ride Greiss

 

[Empoleon8771]

If we were to trade Kessel what would we get in return?

We wouldn't get anything because we wouldn't be able to trade him. Last summer, there was only 1 team heavily interested in him that was on his NTC: the Pens. Add on another underperforming season (overall it has been, despite me being satisfied with his 2016 production) and not many teams are going to be interested in him. The Pens wouldn't be able to move him due to Kessel's big cap hit, a potentially stagnant cap and his poor play. It's not even an option that should be considered right now.

 

[catnip]

Similar production but Malkin has played 10 less games. You are right that Malkin's ES production isn't particularly impressive this year. That doesn't make his PP production any less impressive.

No, similar production taking into account the number of games played. 24 in 56 vs 27 in 66. Or 0.43 ppg vs. 0.41 ppg. I don't consider that a meaningful difference.

And I wasn't trying to imply PP production is meaningless. I've just been reading how people expect certain things based on a player's cap hit. 30ish ES points is in the ballpark of what certain wingers we've tossed aside for not being good enough produce flanking lesser centers on other teams. Wingers that were considered overpaid at $4M.

 

[cajal]

Even if the Pens could trade Kessel, the return would be awful. Waiting to see if he can be a major positive would be a good idea not only because of the return; he might actually be a major contributor in the near future.

If everyone is having this discussion at this time next year, the Pens are in trouble.

 

[Shady Machine]

No, similar production taking into account the number of games played. 24 in 56 vs 27 in 66. Or 0.43 ppg vs. 0.41 ppg. I don't consider that a meaningful difference.

And I wasn't trying to imply PP production is meaningless. I've just been reading how people expect certain things based on a player's cap hit. 30ish ES points is in the ballpark of what certain wingers we've tossed aside for not being good enough produce flanking lesser centers on other teams. Wingers that were considered overpaid at $4M.

Where did you find those stats? NHL.com has Kessel with 31 ES points in 66 games for 0.47 and Malkin with 30 in 56 games for 0.54. Over 82 games that equates to 39 for Kessel and 44 for Malkin. Still not a meaningful difference and Malkin seems to be good for an injury every year, but it's a difference.

 

[JakeNBake59]

Im all for giving him another year
just look at Neal, at Martin... people were clamouring for trades and look at how well they then played the following year.
I just expect better from him

 

[pistolpete11]

We wouldn't get anything because we wouldn't be able to trade him. Last summer, there was only 1 team heavily interested in him that was on his NTC: the Pens. Add on another underperforming season (overall it has been, despite me being satisfied with his 2016 production) and not many teams are going to be interested in him. The Pens wouldn't be able to move him due to Kessel's big cap hit, a potentially stagnant cap and his poor play. It's not even an option that should be considered right now.

This has probably been asked a thousand times, so forgive me, but what is Kessel’s NTC now? Does he even have one? I thought it was scrapped once he agrees to be traded. The Pens got a sweet deal on him because he was only willing to be traded to a few teams and of those few teams, the Pens were the only one interested. If he doesn’t have a NTC, that opens up the possibilities a little bit. I don’t think they should trade him yet, but it would be nice to have that option.


I know it's been mentioned before, but I feel like it gets lost in the discussion sometimes, but Kessel's not the only one that has to adjust his game. Malkin/Crosby need to change, too. If you know he can’t one-time the puck, then stop setting him up for one timers. Take advantage of his passing and start shooting the puck more yourself. Don’t dump the puck into his corner because you know he’s not going to come out with it. None of that really applies to those missed chances last night, but overall, they need to adjust to his game just as much as he needs to adjust to them.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Special teams and some huge saves by both Halak and Greiss are what buried us in this one. The effort was definitely there, and so were the chances...

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Sometimes shots are getting blocked...

That's a ridiculous release. If you're getting paid 8M for being a great scorer and you do that constantly, like he's doing it this season, you just pack your bags and go home...

I agree. Definitely could've done better on that one.

 

[mpp9]

His shooting % in his career years (2011-14) was 12%. The past two years it's been 9%.

That's 6 more goals based on the number of shots he's taken this season. I think it's safe to say with the caliber of talent he's playing with at ES and on the PP, he needs to get back to that 12% number. Hopefully it happens.

 

[SEALBound]

If we were to trade Kessel what would we get in return?

First you have to find a team that needs a good speedy RW and has assets that appeal to us.

I have no idea who would need Kessel and as such I can't comment on a return. A top 6 wing and a pick/prospect would be my guess. Now if they do this trade it's a Neal:Horny/Spals deal. If the wing we get back as good? Probably not but he would likely be a better fit for us.

Halak out 6 weeks (thats into the playoffs right?) so they are going to have to ride Greiss

Greiss has been decent this year. Not like they need to ride Rick DePo. Besides, we always make mediocre goalies look like vezina winners.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This has probably been asked a thousand times, so forgive me, but what is Kessel’s NTC now? Does he even have one? I thought it was scrapped once he agrees to be traded. The Pens got a sweet deal on him because he was only willing to be traded to a few teams and of those few teams, the Pens were the only one interested. If he doesn’t have a NTC, that opens up the possibilities a little bit. I don’t think they should trade him yet, but it would be nice to have that option.

He still has an 8 team NTC. It didn't disappear because he didn't waive it to come to Pittsburgh, they were one of the 8 teams on that list. If he had a full NTC or if he had to waive to come to Pittsburgh, it would have disappeared.

It's a moot point though, there's no way the Pens consider moving Kessel unless he struggles again next year, which I find very doubtful. Just like Crosby isn't going to be a barely PPG player next year, I don't think Kessel is going to be a mid 50s point player next year. I'd be shocked for him to not hit at least 65 points next year.

 

[JakeNBake59]

Greiss has been decent this year. Not like they need to ride Rick DePo. Besides, we always make mediocre goalies look like vezina winners.

This is true, fully aware Greiss has performed well this year for them, his numbers have been better than Halak as well.
Id rather have Halak in net though from an Islanders point of view

 

[pistolpete11]

He still has an 8 team NTC. It didn't disappear because he didn't waive it to come to Pittsburgh, they were one of the 8 teams on that list. If he had a full NTC or if he had to waive to come to Pittsburgh, it would have disappeared.

It's a moot point though, there's no way the Pens consider moving Kessel unless he struggles again next year, which I find very doubtful. Just like Crosby isn't going to be a barely PPG player next year, I don't think Kessel is going to be a mid 50s point player next year. I'd be shocked for him to not hit at least 65 points next year.

Oh, OK. Thanks. I thought he had a full-NTC with Toronto, so that makes sense then. I expect him to be better next year as well, but again, it would be nice to have the option.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Couple things with Phil.

We need him to be a difference maker and he hasn't been.
Daley has been more of one than him.
I'm all for giving him more time.
Pens don't have the option of moving on from him unless Beau stays healthy and/or Sprong pans out quickly.
Things look alot better if they can solve the LW issues first anyway.
Phil's like 3rd or 4th on my list of issues.
And all it is, is that he just needs to be a bit better.

 

[billybudd]

Before we start trading Kessel (which will be a huge PITA that might not only take a year and require that we eat another 2 million of his salary), it might be better if we just figure out how to get him shooting one-timers and firing pucks high. If he needs to use a different stick on the powerplay and just sit there after practice firing buckets of pucks into a shooter tutor, so be it. We have guys on the club who'd be willing to stay with him and work on that.

Despite how he looks, Kessel's a natural athlete. If a guy like Niskanen or, Hell, Clarkson can learn to one-time a puck, Kessel can certainly do it. Just a matter of whether an old dog is willing to put the time in to learn a new trick.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Before we start trading Kessel (which will be a huge PITA that might not only take a year and require that we eat another 2 million of his salary), it might be better if we just figure out how to get him shooting one-timers and firing pucks high. If he needs to use a different stick on the powerplay and just sit there after practice firing buckets of pucks into a shooter tutor, so be it. We have guys on the club who'd be willing to stay with him and work on that.

Despite how he looks, Kessel's a natural athlete. If a guy like Niskanen or, Hell, Clarkson can learn to one-time a puck, Kessel can certainly do it. Just a matter of whether an old dog is willing to put the time in to learn a new trick.

I don't even think this is necessary. Why not let Kessel use his passing from the right half wall? I really don't understand why Kessel needs to be 1-timing that shot at every opportunity anyway, why not play to his strengths there? I don't even think his 1-timer is bad either, I just don't think that's what he should be doing on the PP. Tell Letang to start shooting more (be more Gonchar and less Mark Sanchez) and have Letang and Malkin as the shooters on that unit.

 

[billybudd]

I don't even think this is necessary. Why not let Kessel use his passing from the right half wall? I really don't understand why Kessel needs to be 1-timing that shot at every opportunity anyway, why not play to his strengths there? I don't even think his 1-timer is bad either, I just don't think that's what he should be doing on the PP. Tell Letang to start shooting more (be more Gonchar and less Mark Sanchez) and have Letang and Malkin as the shooters on that unit.

We got Kessel to score goals. That was the job opening we signed him up for. There is not and never was a job opening on our PP for a right handed guy who just passes, nor will there ever be until both Malkin and Crosby are memories.

And yes, his one-timer is presently not only not "not bad" but is genuinely awful. If Jeffrey was right-handed, I'd venture he'd have twice as many PP goals in the same role as Kessel does with all the looks that spot gets. Jeffrey's a career minor leaguer and will never be more, so Kessel's finish from that left circle is not acceptable going forward.

He has to fix that or he can't be here beyond next season. I'd prefer exploring him fixing that before talking about a trade.

 

[WayneSid9987]

He has to devise a way to get a quicker shot off period. Doesn't have to be a one timer.
He's never had time to do his skate to the inside wristers cuz opposing teams scout it too well now.

 

[catnip]

Where did you find those stats? NHL.com has Kessel with 31 ES points in 66 games for 0.47 and Malkin with 30 in 56 games for 0.54. Over 82 games that equates to 39 for Kessel and 44 for Malkin. Still not a meaningful difference and Malkin seems to be good for an injury every year, but it's a difference.

Oops. I was using 5v5 points from stats.hockeyanalysis.com. That was my original claim; that they're virtually identical 5v5. Then I obviously confused myself and mistakenly referred to ES points instead. 5v5 was what I meant all along. I thought that would be the best way to compare.

 

[TheSniper26]

Although Kessel has definitely been underwhelming, let's not lose our minds here. The guy will still likely finish around 25 goals this season. Possibly more if he has even a 3 or 4 game hot streak. I know a lot of us, myself included, expected more(and rightfully so at his cap hit) but let's try to avoid having short memories. Gonchar, Neal, Martin... Sometimes guys need more than part of one season to get acclimated.

As 2015-16 problems on this team go, I'd say there's quite a lot before we get to Kessel. Geno's ES production/health, Crosby's first half was a nightmare, Letang still has bouts of being learning disabled, Maatta skates like he just crapped his pants, Bonino is the invisible man, Bennett needs to be resurrected by the Lord of Light again, Sullivan seems to be terrible with personnel, our biggest source of speed was just given the "day-to-day/dead" treatment, Fleury's shown some flaws in the armor post All Star break, Kunitz is still a thing that exists... I mean, put into perspective, Kessel and his 25 goals might not be the disaster some think.

Outside of Daley/Dumo/Rust/Murray, pretty much every aspect of this year's team comes with a "Yeah, but..." I think that's worth remembering when we start singling out one guy.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Although Kessel has definitely been underwhelming, let's not lose our minds here. The guy will still likely finish around 25 goals this season. Possibly more if he has even a 3 or 4 game hot streak. I know a lot of us, myself included, expected more(and rightfully so at his cap hit) but let's try to avoid having short memories. Gonchar, Neal, Martin... Sometimes guys need more than part of one season to get acclimated.

As 2015-16 problems on this team go, I'd say there's quite a lot before we get to Kessel. Geno's ES production/health, Crosby's first half was a nightmare, Letang still has bouts of being learning disabled, Maatta skates like he just crapped his pants, Bonino is the invisible man, Bennett needs to be resurrected by the Lord of Light again, Sullivan seems to be terrible with personnel, our biggest source of speed was just given the "day-to-day/dead" treatment, Fleury's shown some flaws in the armor post All Star break, Kunitz is still a thing that exists... I mean, put into perspective, Kessel and his 25 goals might not be the disaster some think.

Outside of Daley/Dumo/Rust/Murray, pretty much every aspect of this year's team comes with a "Yeah, but..." I think that's worth remembering when we start singling out one guy.

I dunno. Outside of "the vet", I'd say Kessel's underwhelming play is our biggest issue. The last two years he's been a soft ~25 goal, ~60 point defensive liability who makes nearly 7 mil per.

Everybody else is either living up to their paycheck or easily replaced.

I think he can turn it around. But this is not a player we can have around long-term if he continues to play like he has.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I dunno. Outside of "the vet", I'd say Kessel's underwhelming play is our biggest issue. The last two years he's been a soft ~25 goal, ~60 point defensive liability who makes nearly 7 mil per.

Everybody else is either living up to their paycheck or easily replaced.

I think he can turn it around. But this is not a player we can have around long-term if he continues to play like he has.

Idk, I think our black hole at 3C is a underrated issue. Bonino's no show this year has really hurt us, our 3rd line has been completely ineffective with him as the center. Fehr can be applied to this too, I'm extremely disappointed in him.

There are probably close to 8 guys that have underperformed for the majority of this year, I'd say that Kessel is probably around the 6th worst of that group. I think the struggles of Fehr, Bonino, Cole, Kunitz and Maatta are bigger issues than Kessel being 5 goals and 10 points below where he'll be normally.

 

[Pancakes]

How about instead of changing Kessel's game to fit the team we look at video and figure out how to get the most out of him? Our powerplay shouldn't need to rely on Kessel one-timers to produce. Figure out what he did well in Toronto and get him doing it here.

It's the same type of garbage that had us playing Iginla on LW because he just had to fit our team the way we wanted him to. Eff that. Let him fit the way he's supposed to. Let him do what got him to elite status.

Anyways, I think this is all much ado about nothing. He's not that far off from the pace I'd like to see him at. If he buries just a few more of his chances, we aren't even having this discussion. As Iced Capp said, Kessel is pretty close to where we want him.