Speculation: The Evolution of Dan Bylsma-Too Little Too Late?

Gurglesons

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Dec 18, 2009
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Honest question:

Do you think that DBs intelligent coaching decisions is the reason the Pens won or Bob letting in two terrible goals?

No, but I think that the hate on this forum has gotten ridiculous.

Flyers are getting blown out right now.

Its the playoffs, regardless of how a win comes about it is a win. We won. Bylsma out coached Richards.

Wasn't the whole thing the whole season that a WIN in the regular season means nothing?

So, now according to the collective of this board a win in the playoffs means nothing either?

Its against the Jackets, so it doesn't matter. Sounds a lot like the argument people use against Crosby when he pads his stats against lesser teams.

Root for your ****ing team.
 

Ogelthorpe

Who do you play for?
Jul 21, 2010
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I see a lot of questions about ice time for Sid and Geno, and how they didn't get enough time. Given the situation last night, anyone saying they didn't get enough time, couldn't be more wrong. In order to win the cup, we will play a more intense brand of hockey, almost every other day for 2 months. This was game 1 of that journey. If you can win early with Sid and Geno playing 17 minutes, then great. If you can win with them playing 12 minutes, even better! Also, this was Gino's first game back from injury, so easing him back in is favorable.

Now, if its an elimination game, and they get that kind of time, by all means, complaints are warranted, but taken in context, ice time for our stars shouldn't be a concern.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Sep 5, 2008
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Evolution? What evolution? He moved Bennett from Sid's line to Sutter's, and it worked out because Bennett was on fire all night. He also proceeded to play him for next to no shifts in the 3rd, and he continues to over-play terrible players in Scuderi, Orpik, Glass, and Adams.
 

Rico Fatastic

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Jul 28, 2002
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I see a lot of questions about ice time for Sid and Geno, and how they didn't get enough time. Given the situation last night, anyone saying they didn't get enough time, couldn't be more wrong. In order to win the cup, we will play a more intense brand of hockey, almost every other day for 2 months. This was game 1 of that journey. If you can win early with Sid and Geno playing 17 minutes, then great. If you can win with them playing 12 minutes, even better! Also, this was Gino's first game back from injury, so easing him back in is favorable.

Now, if its an elimination game, and they get that kind of time, by all means, complaints are warranted, but taken in context, ice time for our stars shouldn't be a concern.
This is 100% correct. It kills me how when a defenseman plays a lot of minutes in his first game back from injury, everyone trashes Bylsma for not easing the player back into the lineup. In fact, I recall the same complaints when Crosby returned from Concussion Hell a couple years back. Now when Bylsma does the opposite with Malkin and *only* plays him 17 minutes, we want to ***** him not getting enough ice time. It's ridiculous, really. There are more than enough legitimate problems with Bylsma's coaching that no one should have to resort to applying double standards in order to find fault with him.
 

Coach Travis

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Dan Bylsma's a great coach, IMO. He's not perfect but he's definitely one of the better ones. Lots of room to improve but he's young (for a coach) and I'm glad we have him. He's definitely figured out success game-to-game in the regular season, even with injuries to many top players, but he has a lot to learn in a playoff series where you're playing the same team night after night. It hasn't helped having Fleury **** the bed though.
 

Coach Travis

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No, but I think that the hate on this forum has gotten ridiculous.

Flyers are getting blown out right now.

Its the playoffs, regardless of how a win comes about it is a win. We won. Bylsma out coached Richards.

Wasn't the whole thing the whole season that a WIN in the regular season means nothing?

So, now according to the collective of this board a win in the playoffs means nothing either?

Its against the Jackets, so it doesn't matter. Sounds a lot like the argument people use against Crosby when he pads his stats against lesser teams.

Root for your ****ing team.

Haha, this. There are those on this board who won't be satisfied unless the Pens go down in a blaze of glory. They'll contort whatever success Bylsma has into how he didn't really do anything but in fact fell ass backwards into fortune.
 

JimmyTwoTimes

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Apr 13, 2010
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I see a lot of questions about ice time for Sid and Geno, and how they didn't get enough time. Given the situation last night, anyone saying they didn't get enough time, couldn't be more wrong. In order to win the cup, we will play a more intense brand of hockey, almost every other day for 2 months. This was game 1 of that journey. If you can win early with Sid and Geno playing 17 minutes, then great. If you can win with them playing 12 minutes, even better! Also, this was Gino's first game back from injury, so easing him back in is favorable.

Now, if its an elimination game, and they get that kind of time, by all means, complaints are warranted, but taken in context, ice time for our stars shouldn't be a concern.

That makes way too much sense and it will be ignored. It goes against the train of thought that bylsma is purposely giving Malkin less ice time because he's favoring glass and Adams.

Sad thing is, this shouldn't haven even needed to be said. Common sense really.
 

Ragamuffin Gunner

Lost in the Flood
Aug 15, 2008
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Boston
No, but I think that the hate on this forum has gotten ridiculous.

Flyers are getting blown out right now.

Its the playoffs, regardless of how a win comes about it is a win. We won. Bylsma out coached Richards.

Wasn't the whole thing the whole season that a WIN in the regular season means nothing?

So, now according to the collective of this board a win in the playoffs means nothing either?

Its against the Jackets, so it doesn't matter. Sounds a lot like the argument people use against Crosby when he pads his stats against lesser teams.

Root for your ****ing team.

"The Pens won so everything DB did was great, no need to change anything!" This is the type of thinking that will most likely lead to a 5th straight PO embarrassment.

If the Pens continue to play like they did last night they won't make it past the 2nd round (if they even make it out of the 1st). The Pens got lucky that Bob was awful. If MAF had let in those last two goals everyone and their mother would be screaming for Zatkoff to start game 2.
 

Fordy

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May 28, 2008
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No, but I think that the hate on this forum has gotten ridiculous.

Flyers are getting blown out right now.

Its the playoffs, regardless of how a win comes about it is a win. We won. Bylsma out coached Richards.

Wasn't the whole thing the whole season that a WIN in the regular season means nothing?

So, now according to the collective of this board a win in the playoffs means nothing either?

Its against the Jackets, so it doesn't matter. Sounds a lot like the argument people use against Crosby when he pads his stats against lesser teams.

Root for your ****ing team.

this is laughable
 

JimmyTwoTimes

Registered User
Apr 13, 2010
19,958
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"The Pens won so everything DB did was great, no need to change anything!" This is the type of thinking that will most likely lead to a 5th straight PO embarrassment.

If the Pens continue to play like they did last night they won't make it past the 2nd round (if they even make it out of the 1st). The Pens got lucky that Bob was awful. If MAF had let in those last two goals everyone and their mother would be screaming for Zatkoff to start game 2.

Haha. Who's saying everything DB did was great and there's no need to change anything? Why do people have to be so extreme, Is it that hard for there to be a middle ground?

Maybe I missed it but all I've seen is people saying bylsma actually did pretty good for a change and hoping that continues. And if there is someone who said it, they're just as wrong as the other group. We win the game with him making some adjustments yet all focus is on the same **** as usual. When the pens lose it's all on bylsma . Now after reading these comments, when they win it has nothing to do with bylsma it has to do with the other team blowing it. I look though the first few pages of the PGT last night and I see some posts of people giving pluses to about 10 players or whatever and at the bottom is a minus for Bylsma. Haha..baffles me. So what they're implying is the players decided not to listen to Bylsma and did it their own way. Ignored him all game. Is saying that an exaggeration if all of those guys get a good grade yet somehow it was in spite of the head coach? Yet on another issue, whenever our stars lose their cool and go full meltdown it's on bylsma for allowing it. That's cool. Amazes me how some people here actually believe the things they post. And it's not about having a "different opinion...you don't agree with my views so you are delusional ". I'm referring to this topic alone . It's pretty simple.

Most agreed there were major concerns with DB, yet gained a little hope after last nights game and hoping we can build off that. Not that he can do no wrong all of a sudden and everybody was an idiot who questioned him. I've complained about bylsma plenty of times in the regular season and didn't have much hope coming into the playoffs. But I can at least acknowledge what he did last night. It wasn't perfect by any means, but it certainly didn't look like the same garbage we've seen in previous years. Buts that's how people are treating it. Still posting everyone's ice time and 10 other things our coach is horrible at. I don't know, I just see it as why would people not be happy about last nights game considering the lack of hope before it? Sure, Dan could easily go back to messing things up the next series if we get by Columbus , that remains to be seen. But I just thought it was fair to actually appreciate seeing some improvements finally instead of ignoring any good whatsoever and repeating the same things that have been said well over a million times now.
 

vodeni

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Oct 27, 2010
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Some of the Bylsma's moves last night are being completely blown out of proportion. He has been moving BB up and down the line up ALL THE TIME, sam with Gibbons and Stemp. It just happened that Bob let two soooooffff goals and things are looking a little better.

IMO Bylsma's best move by a mile last night was moving Glass off of the thir line. I was getting nervous before the game because all PGH expert media such as Madden and Savran were gushing about great 3rd with Glass, Sutter and Stemp, and you know that is a 2 man line that will be absolutely crappy. To Bylsma's credit he blew that up and added BB there to make a very good line. There is also another thing that he has been doing for the last few weeks that improve our chances of winning games, and that is adding Gibby and Lee to our PK, he actually did not start 44 on PK in 2 instances. what bugs me is why he did not do any of that for the last 80 games....but better now than never
 

Ragamuffin Gunner

Lost in the Flood
Aug 15, 2008
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I really don't see how "fixing" a PP he ****ed up for no reason before the game started and putting a guy who started the game on the 4th line on the 1st over a guy who had a goal and an assist is an improvement, let alone an evolution.

An actual improvement would be to actually ice the best line-up possible. Starting the game with bad lines, then fixing a few of them is not a sign of a good coach. A good coach would start the game with the right lines.
 

Zero Pucks

Size matters
May 17, 2009
4,589
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It's the first game. Just wait until he actually needs to make some necessary adjustments, it's bound to happen at some point. His 'what we're doing isn't working, so lets keep doing it' philosophy will come out sooner or later.
 

ColePens

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Mar 27, 2008
107,025
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No, but I think that the hate on this forum has gotten ridiculous.

Flyers are getting blown out right now.

Its the playoffs, regardless of how a win comes about it is a win. We won. Bylsma out coached Richards.

Wasn't the whole thing the whole season that a WIN in the regular season means nothing?

So, now according to the collective of this board a win in the playoffs means nothing either?

Its against the Jackets, so it doesn't matter. Sounds a lot like the argument people use against Crosby when he pads his stats against lesser teams.

Root for your ****ing team.

So wait a second... If a team wins a game, the coach automatically out coaches his opposition!?! Ummm... Really? I won't agree with you on that one. What did he do to out coach in your opinion.

Fleury, Bylsma, and Shero created this frustration themselves. I'm rooting for the Stanley Cup, but I'm not going to be a ****ing idiot and ignore the consistent issues. That's just dumb.

The one thing I'll give you credit for is that some of the minority hit the hate a little too hard. That always happens,
 

IcedCapp

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Aug 7, 2009
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This is 100% correct. It kills me how when a defenseman plays a lot of minutes in his first game back from injury, everyone trashes Bylsma for not easing the player back into the lineup. In fact, I recall the same complaints when Crosby returned from Concussion Hell a couple years back. Now when Bylsma does the opposite with Malkin and *only* plays him 17 minutes, we want to ***** him not getting enough ice time. It's ridiculous, really. There are more than enough legitimate problems with Bylsma's coaching that no one should have to resort to applying double standards in order to find fault with him.

I'm really tired so hopefully this makes sense, but let me try to explain why what you're arguing isn't actually the issue:

1) People thrash Bylsma for never easing a player back into the lineup.

2) People thrash Bylsma on a nightly basis for his usage of Evgeni Malkin.

3) The amount of time Malkin received last night was not out of line with what he'd normally receive.

4) There is nothing to suggest that Malkin's injury/recovery had any impact on Malkin's ice time.

5) There is nothing to suggest that Bylsma's stance on handling players post-injury has changed.
 

MtlPenFan

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Apr 14, 2010
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That makes way too much sense and it will be ignored. It goes against the train of thought that bylsma is purposely giving Malkin less ice time because he's favoring glass and Adams.

Sad thing is, this shouldn't haven even needed to be said. Common sense really.

If you're going to word it like that, then yes, it does sound silly. No, he isn't punishing Malkin in order to give Glass and Adams more ice time because he feels they deserve it or that he sees himself in them.

However, the reality is, when a coach gives marginal NHL players like Adams and Glass around 13 minutes of ice time, that ice time is indeed taken away from others, which is how you end up with Beau getting 10 minutes of ice time, Sid getting less than 20 and Malkin getting 17.

Playing favorites is a human condition and is present in all walks of life. In a warped way, I'd understand it more if Glass and Adams were his buddies and personal faves and that's why he played them so often. It would be idiotic, but I'd kinda get it.

Unfortunately, I find the reality far more frightening, because it questions Bylsma's hockey sense. He truly values what Glass and Adams bring, despite failing simple eye tests that are backed up time and again by advanced stats. He WANTS those guys out there at critical moments because he believes in their abilities. When THAT is what takes ice time away from much, much better players, it's a major cause for concern.

Anyone see Raffi Torres tonight? He was mauling guys left and right, scored a goal, and still saw limited TOI. Why? Because in the end he's a 4th liner, and 4th liners should play 4th line minutes, not get promoted to 3rd and sometimes 1st line duties because he hits someone 10 seconds after the puck is out of the zone.

And when people complain about injured guys playing too much too soon? That's usually when they stink it up upon their return and we wonder why Bylsma throws them into the fire immediately, so let's not fudge on the details of that complaint. The way Geno was playing last night, I don't care if he had polio, you keep throwing him out there every chance you have, not limiting his minutes to a grand total of 10 through 2 periods.

Let's be serious here. His number one priority was getting Beau off the first line, and the rest of the pieces simply fell into place. Nisky should have never been taken off the PP unit to start with either, so the "adjustment" in taking Letang off the PP is like giving credit to someone for driving me to the hospital after he bashed me over the head with a brick.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,860
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If you're going to word it like that, then yes, it does sound silly. No, he isn't punishing Malkin in order to give Glass and Adams more ice time because he feels they deserve it or that he sees himself in them.

However, the reality is, when a coach gives marginal NHL players like Adams and Glass around 13 minutes of ice time, that ice time is indeed taken away from others, which is how you end up with Beau getting 10 minutes of ice time, Sid getting less than 20 and Malkin getting 17.

Playing favorites is a human condition and is present in all walks of life. In a warped way, I'd understand it more if Glass and Adams were his buddies and personal faves and that's why he played them so often. It would be idiotic, but I'd kinda get it.

Unfortunately, I find the reality far more frightening, because it questions Bylsma's hockey sense. He truly values what Glass and Adams bring, despite failing simple eye tests that are backed up time and again by advanced stats. He WANTS those guys out there at critical moments because he believes in their abilities. When THAT is what takes ice time away from much, much better players, it's a major cause for concern.

Anyone see Raffi Torres tonight? He was mauling guys left and right, scored a goal, and still saw limited TOI. Why? Because in the end he's a 4th liner, and 4th liners should play 4th line minutes, not get promoted to 3rd and sometimes 1st line duties because he hits someone 10 seconds after the puck is out of the zone.

And when people complain about injured guys playing too much too soon? That's usually when they stink it up upon their return and we wonder why Bylsma throws them into the fire immediately, so let's not fudge on the details of that complaint. The way Geno was playing last night, I don't care if he had polio, you keep throwing him out there every chance you have, not limiting his minutes to a grand total of 10 through 2 periods.

Let's be serious here. His number one priority was getting Beau off the first line, and the rest of the pieces simply fell into place. Nisky should have never been taken off the PP unit to start with either, so the "adjustment" in taking Letang off the PP is like giving credit to someone for driving me to the hospital after he bashed me over the head with a brick.

It was like folks arguing in Bylsma's favor last year praising him for putting Bennett/Vitale/Kennedy into the lineup after the Pens' back was against the wall, ignoring the fact maybe the Pens wouldn't have been in that position if DB had played those guys right from the start over Glass/Adams.

Yes, let's praise the guy for doing something that any normal human being would have done right from the start.
 

Gurglesons

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So wait a second... If a team wins a game, the coach automatically out coaches his opposition!?! Ummm... Really? I won't agree with you on that one. What did he do to out coach in your opinion.

Fleury, Bylsma, and Shero created this frustration themselves. I'm rooting for the Stanley Cup, but I'm not going to be a ****ing idiot and ignore the consistent issues. That's just dumb.

The one thing I'll give you credit for is that some of the minority hit the hate a little too hard. That always happens,

I hate Fleury and hope to see Bylsma fired this off season.

The hate on Bylsma this game is preposterous.

Any other time our power play or penalty kill would go up against a team he would stubbornly use the same line-up no matter what. See last year's regular season and the Flyers series plus Boston series in the playoffs. He actually changed his PP which accounted for us coming back from a 3 -1 deficit.

He played a line-up that mostly consisted of players that we as a forum have been begging for aside from Bortuzzo and Megna. In my estimation Bortuzzo should be in a 7D rotation and if we have to suffer through some Tanner Glass, I'm happy as long as we are winning.

This team has warts, that is clear. It doesn't mean that Malkin and Crosby can't put this team on their backs and run us into the finals. I guess the overaching sentiment is if that happens all those warts aren't examined, but let us at least see. Babcock plays his Clearys, Quenneville his Handzuss. Every coach plays favorites with certain veterans. Lets be happy we won. Plus, we capitalized on our chances which we haven't done for multiple playoff games.
 

canadianguy77

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Apr 20, 2006
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When Gladams and Orpik are no longer a fixture on our roster I'll take Bylsma a little more seriously. I don't care that the were servicable last game, I've watched them all season long. They should've been put out to pasture last season. I don't like it that Scuderi dresses every game either. If an NHL Head coach can't get his personnel right, then I don't know what to tell you. That should be the easiest decision he has to make on a game-to-game basis.
 

Human

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Jan 22, 2011
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I don`t think DB was benching Bennett by putting him on the third line last night. I thought of it more as Sutter`s line needed help and Bennett was tasked with and did quite well at helping that line.

Then why did he get three shifts in the third period?

Bylsma was asked about this in the post game presser and he was mumbling the answer like a Pejorative Slur. I couldn't really understand his answer...

Edit: oh, and btw, back when Dupuis was healthy he constantly used to get more TOI than Malkin. Geno's TOI has been usually low under Bylsma and it has nothing to do with coming back from an injury...
 

steveg

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Jul 8, 2012
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When Gladams and Orpik are no longer a fixture on our roster I'll take Bylsma a little more seriously. I don't care that the were servicable last game, I've watched them all season long. They should've been put out to pasture last season. I don't like it that Scuderi dresses every game either. If an NHL Head coach can't get his personnel right, then I don't know what to tell you. That should be the easiest decision he has to make on a game-to-game basis.

This post is short, concise, and it nails the point.

YES, Bylsma gave Letang a dose of accountability. Excellent. Credit given. BUT...when anything "positive" that DB might do is happening against the backdrop of failing at one of the most basic things a coach needs to get right -- i.e. dressing your best lineup, then the bad outweighs the good, IMO. The wrong lineup, consistently, will cost you games -- especially in the playoffs, and ESPECIALLY late in the playoffs, when the remaining teams are most often the cream of the crop...
 

steveg

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Jul 8, 2012
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I look though the first few pages of the PGT last night and I see some posts of people giving pluses to about 10 players or whatever and at the bottom is a minus for Bylsma. Haha..baffles me. So what they're implying is the players decided not to listen to Bylsma and did it their own way. Ignored him all game. Is saying that an exaggeration if all of those guys get a good grade yet somehow it was in spite of the head coach? Yet on another issue, whenever our stars lose their cool and go full meltdown it's on bylsma for allowing it. That's cool. Amazes me how some people here actually believe the things they post.

I disagree with so much of your post, but I'll focus on just the quoted part above.

I really can't follow the logic, where you say that if someone gives players a "plus," but the coach a minus, that it makes no sense.

Let's try a different analogy. Take a lawn mowing company. The boss has ten yards to mow, by lunchtime -- an unusual number, as his 5-man crews usually can mow 8 yards before lunchtime. Thus, they need to work FAST and EFFICIENT. He has a pool of 10 workers to choose from; 8 of the workers are good, young, hard-working guys in good shape; 2 of them are older, can't quite keep up anymore, and probably should have been let go -- but the boss, for whatever reasons, keeps them employed. Now, the boss needs to choose a 5-man crew for the day, to cut these ten yards, and instead of choosing 5 of the young, hard-working guys, he chooses only three of them, and then includes the two older, can't-keep-up guys, to round out the 5-man crew.

In this scenario, there will be two outcomes -- either they will NOT get the yards finished by lunchtime, OR they will, but it will be DESPITE the boss's decision to include the 2 over-the-hill guys...in other words, if they get the yards finished, it will have meant that the other 3 guys picked up the slack, worked extra hard, and managed to get the job done despite having the handicap of having the two less-capable guys on the crew.

NOW, if you were asked to evaluate at the end of the day, are you telling me it would make no sense to give a "plus" to the three young guys, and a "minus" to the boss, who made the decision to include the 2 over-the-hill guys as part of the 5-man crew, thus handicapping the crew (as compared to if he had sent out a crew of 5 of his best young guys?) Would it not make sense that even if they get the yards finished, that they were fortunate, and managed the task IN SPITE OF the boss's decision? Further, is it not reasonable to assume that IF those 10 yards had been just a bit larger, or if they had to make a quick trip to pick up some extra gas, or if one of the weed-eaters decided to crap out, or any other minor bit of adversity, that the crew may then NOT have finished the yards (due to the fact that the crew was NOT made up of the 5 best guys)?

This is not that hard to understand, IMO. You have arguably the two best players IN THE WORLD on this team; that alone says that you will win alot of hockey games DESPITE a coach making many poor decisions. TALENT ALONE will win the Pens a large number of regular season games. BUT -- at some point, poor coaching decisions and a sub-standard lineup will catch up with you...usually when you face top competition in the post season. And, not coincidentally, this is EXACTLY what the Penguins have experienced, for the past four post seasons.

I'm not sure why this point, as I've laid it out (which is pretty much the point of those who are griping about DB on this board) seems to be contradictory to you, or difficult to understand, or whatever -- such that it drove you to say "amazes me how some people here actually believe the things they post."
 
Last edited:

steveg

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Jul 8, 2012
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Norman, OK
...and to follow up on my prior post, if the boss then, at 11 AM, saw his crew struggling to finish, and sent over one more of the young guys to help out, and they then managed to get the 10 yards finished by noon, would you then think it appropriate to applaud the boss for "making a good adjustment?"
 

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