News Article: The Edmonton Rush moving to Saskatoon

[McHilman]

The leftmost section whilst watching TV and the end zone section never filled up; their attendance was once again not a sellout (capacity is 32k).

https://twitter.com/Big_G_09

http://www.lfpress.com/2015/07/27/roughriders-drop-to-0-5-with-loss-to-tiger-cats

https://twitter.com/karlrohne

 

[guymez]

Single events, no. Cumulatively add up all other other events, absolutely an influencing factor. Disposable incomes are not infinite - people just make allocations and prioritize. Over the recent years, the Esks share of pie has just got smaller.

Its not about disposable incomes being infinite. Its about choices.
Football fans don't make decisions to spend their football money on other non sporting events. I see no valid evidence to support that view. However I have seen much evidence to counter it.

In the 80's, there was less to to in Edmonton.

It's a different generation, and the CFL is in significant trouble by the demographics.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...e-of-cfl-new-survey-suggests/article25146846/

In the early 80's there were actually more sports in Edmonton than there is now. The Edmonton Drillers played indoor soccer and they were a very entertaining product to watch. They won a championship in 1981.
I used to go to those games all the time.
The Edmonton Trappers were also another option back then. They were another very successful sporting option...they also won a championship in 1984.

Edmontons population in the 80's was around 500,000 people.
Despite having more options back then (and half the population) the football was still very well supported because football fans made it a priority. You also have to understand that there was a recession going on as well so dollars were much harder to come by than they are now. Despite all that (more sports...very poor economy) football fans made a point of spending their disposable income on football.

In 10 years, the CFL will be dead...just like it's largest demographic followers.

People have been saying that for decades. The CFL is still here and hopefully that never changes.

Honest question - what do you make of Edmonton leading the CFL in attendance every year except 3 since 1992?

Per capita means more. If a city like Regina (and its surrounding area) has a population 5 times less than Edmonton and manages about 3000 less people per game (as they did in 2014) that is much more impressive IMO.

 

[Wheathead]

The leftmost section whilst watching TV and the end zone section never filled up; their attendance was once again not a sellout (capacity is 32k).

https://twitter.com/Big_G_09

http://www.lfpress.com/2015/07/27/roughriders-drop-to-0-5-with-loss-to-tiger-cats

https://twitter.com/karlrohne

Have you ever sat in those seats? They're the worst seats in the stadium.

'Spoutin' off from your high throne up in Edmonton I see.

 

[Supermassive]

Have you ever sat in those seats? They're the worst seats in the stadium.

'Spoutin' off from your high throne up in Edmonton I see.

Those seats do look hideous. Much like the Lightning's diagonal bleeders in the old Thunderdome. Terrible line of sight.

Anyway, congrats to Saskatoon on their defending champion NLL franchise.

 

[McHilman]

Have you ever sat in those seats? They're the worst seats in the stadium.

'Spoutin' off from your high throne up in Edmonton I see.

Most of the seats are horrible as is the whole stadium (Calgary is a close second).

 

[Speed220DChalavan]

Its not about disposable incomes being infinite. Its about choices.
Football fans don't make decisions to spend their football money on other non sporting events. I see no valid evidence to support that view. However I have seen much evidence to counter it.

CFL just isn't overly popular in Edmonton. Sure you have that core of 25K season ticket holders, but that's the majority of the fan base that attends games.

1. The younger generation is heavily leaning towards the NFL (for good reason - i.e. superior product).
2. The younger generation has considerably more entertainment options, and thus were/are unlikely to get captivated by the CFL.

In the early 80's there were actually more sports in Edmonton than there is now. The Edmonton Drillers played indoor soccer and they were a very entertaining product to watch. They won a championship in 1981.
I used to go to those games all the time.
The Edmonton Trappers were also another option back then. They were another very successful sporting option...they also won a championship in 1984.

By entertainment options, I'm not referring to second tier leagues/sports. I'm referring to non-sport endeavors.

People have been saying that for decades. The CFL is still here and hopefully that never changes.

Did you read that article? Do you not find it concerning the largest CFL demographics is 55+?

The CFL may still linger around, but the interest is wading. It's highly concerning when the two smallest markets are where the interest is the most (Saskatchewan and Winnipeg), whereas the larger markets are turning a cold shoulder.

Per capita means more. If a city like Regina (and its surrounding area) has a population 5 times less than Edmonton and manages about 3000 less people per game (as they did in 2014) that is much more impressive IMO.

But by this metric, Toronto should be averaging 150K fans per game.

Are you aware of how absurd the notion sounds?

 

[guymez]

CFL just isn't overly popular in Edmonton. Sure you have that core of 25K season ticket holders, but that's the majority of the fan base that attends games.

So...you previously trumpet Edmonton for its support of the Esks being tops in the CFL and then go on at length about how football isnt that popular in Edmonton?

Sounds a little duplicitous to me.

1. The younger generation is heavily leaning towards the NFL (for good reason - i.e. superior product).
2. The younger generation has considerably more entertainment options, and thus were/are unlikely to get captivated by the CFL.

By entertainment options, I'm not referring to second tier leagues/sports. I'm referring to non-sport endeavors.

I dont think you realize just how bad the recession was in the early 80's. Perhaps you are too young to appreciate just how tough things were economically. Despite that reality Edmonton filled Commonwealth Stadium (40,000 season ticket holders) and also supported the Driller indoor soccer team with as much as 10,000 per game.

A successful team played a big role in this as well and I expect the same thing would happen in this day and age.
Winning matters.

Did you read that article? Do you not find it concerning the largest CFL demographics is 55+?

The CFL may still linger around, but the interest is wading. It's highly concerning when the two smallest markets are where the interest is the most (Saskatchewan and Winnipeg), whereas the larger markets are turning a cold shoulder.

Its an opinion piece. Hardly a definitive statement on the direction of the CFL.

But by this metric, Toronto should be averaging 150K fans per game.

Are you aware of how absurd the notion sounds?

Very poor example.
Clearly you dont understand the nuances in the Toronto market. That market considers the CFL a product that isnt worthy of support for a world class city. The CFL has been trying to rectify that for years.

In terms of supporting a pro football team...you do realize how absurd it is to suggest that a city (and surrounding area) of 250,000 should be considered on the same level as a city of 1.2 Million?

Surely you must.

 

[joestevens29]

So...you previously trumpet Edmonton for its support of the Esks being tops in the CFL and then go on at length about how football isnt that popular in Edmonton?

Sounds a little duplicitous to me.






I dont think you realize just how bad the recession was in the early 80's. Perhaps you are too young to appreciate just how tough things were economically. Despite that reality Edmonton filled Commonwealth Stadium (40,000 season ticket holders) and also supported the Driller indoor soccer team with as much as 10,000 per game.

A successful team played a big role in this as well and I expect the same thing would happen in this day and age.
Winning matters.



Its an opinion piece. Hardly a definitive statement on the direction of the CFL.



Very poor example.
Clearly you dont understand the nuances in the Toronto market. That market considers the CFL a product that isnt worthy of support for a world class city. The CFL has been trying to rectify that for years.

In terms of supporting a pro football team...you do realize how absurd it is to suggest that a city (and surrounding area) of 300,000 should be considered on the same level as a city of 1.2 Million?

Surely you must.

We are tops in the league almost all the time for attendance. Are we the second largest market behind Toronto that I guess doesn't count?

The fact is the team is getting supported at a very high level for the current CFL standards.

 

[guymez]

We are tops in the league almost all the time for attendance. Are we the second largest market behind Toronto that I guess doesn't count?

The fact is the team is getting supported at a very high level for the current CFL standards.

Who said that doesn't count? Not sure what you are suggesting here.

My point is that expecting a community of under 250,000 (adjusted) to compete with a market of 1.2 million is silly.

When you have to fill 30.000 seats there is a cutoff point at which population matters.
30,000 is approx 12% of greater Reginas population and only about 2.5% of Edmontons.

Last season Regina averaged 30,000 fans...Edmonton averaged 33,000 fans.

I'd say that paints a community of approx 250,000 in a very good light in terms of football support.

 

[Speed220DChalavan]

So...you previously trumpet Edmonton for its support of the Esks being tops in the CFL and then go on at length about how football isnt that popular in Edmonton?

It definitely isn't popular amongst the younger demographics. Large enough to get 25-30K every game (older generation) and lead the league in attendance perpetually, but it's dying a slow death as the younger generation simply does not care.

The Oilers are the talk of the town 365 days a year. CFL? It's background TV material. Just look at the lack of posts on CFL messageboards (i.e. esksfans). The interest is nominal.

I dont think you realize just how bad the recession was in the early 80's. Perhaps you are too young to appreciate just how tough things were economically. Despite that reality Edmonton filled Commonwealth Stadium (40,000 season ticket holders) and also supported the Driller indoor soccer team with as much as 10,000 per game.

A successful team played a big role in this as well and I expect the same thing would happen in this day and age.
Winning matters.

Winning matters? Does it really? Peanuts drawn in Calgary and BC despite recent Grey Cup Wins. Same with Toronto.

I don't think Edmonton will be too different. Comparing it to the 80's is absurd given alot of variables have changed since then (population growth, alternative entertainment options, shift in interest from younger generation, etc.)

Its an opinion piece. Hardly a definitive statement on the direction of the CFL.

It's a scientific piece - here, I'll simplify it for you. Read this passage:

Predictably, CFL interest in Canada varies by province. Saskatchewan (64 per cent) boasts the highest ahead of Manitoba (51 per cent) and Alberta (42 per cent). B.C. was fourth (29 per cent) followed by Ontario and Quebec (both 21 per cent). Atlantic Canada, which doesn’t have a league franchise, was the lowest at 14 per cent.

In fact, the survey shows that football in Saskatchewan is more popular than the NHL (38 per cent) and curling (36 per cent).

According to the survey, the CFL’s best demographic is men 55 and over, with 47 per cent of respondents saying they follow the league. That drops to 39 per cent for males those between the ages of 35 and 54 and to 26 per cent for those at 18 to 34.

The respondents for each survey were selected from separate panels of 150,000 in Canada and the U.S.

You are likely among the CFL's best demographic group. A shame your children/grandchildren/nieces/nephews will not religiously follow the CFL like you did.

Very poor example.
Clearly you dont understand the nuances in the Toronto market. That market considers the CFL a product that isnt worthy of support for a world class city. The CFL has been trying to rectify that for years.

In terms of supporting a pro football team...you do realize how absurd it is to suggest that a city (and surrounding area) of 300,000 should be considered on the same level as a city of 1.2 Million?

Surely you must.

Using per-capita is pretty silly, period. A city like Red Deer can draw 5K per game in the WHL - should that mean Edmonton draw 50K?

Nobody is arguing that Saskatchewan is a better CFL market. Everyone here is just countering your silly point that it is the only market Edmonton should compare itself to. There are 7 other CFL markets and Edmonton outdraws them considerably.

 

[Speed220DChalavan]

Who said that doesn't count? Not sure what you are suggesting here.

The entire saga stemmed from post #393 in this thread from you:

The point I am trying to make is that Edmontons support of the Eskimos isnt exactly something to hold up in high esteem.

And your rationale for this?

"But guys, Saskatchewan (who have no entertainment options, and no other professional sports team) draws more per capita!!''

Good God. What an embarrassing series of events.

 

[Halibut]

Who said that doesn't count? Not sure what you are suggesting here.

My point is that expecting a community of under 250,000 (adjusted) to compete with a market of 1.2 million is silly.

When you have to fill 30.000 seats there is a cutoff point at which population matters.
30,000 is approx 12% of greater Reginas population and only about 2.5% of Edmontons.

Last season Regina averaged 30,000 fans...Edmonton averaged 33,000 fans.

I'd say that paints a community of approx 250,000 in a very good light in terms of football support.

Sure but it doesnt make us look bad when compared to the rest of the league.

I hate the talk of Rider fans like they are something special and the league exists only for them and only because of them. Screw the per capita crap, by the numbers the Eskimos lead the league in attendance year after year. Edmonton should be proud of it and I think the fact we arent actually turns people away.

 

[guymez]

It definitely isn't popular amongst the younger demographics. Large enough to get 25-30K every game (older generation) and lead the league in attendance perpetually, but it's dying a slow death as the younger generation simply does not care.

Young people are fickle. Winning does matter....always has because it influences how a team is perceived.
So we shall just have to agree to disagree on this.

The Oilers are the talk of the town 365 days a year. CFL? It's background TV material. Just look at the lack of posts on CFL messageboards (i.e. esksfans). The interest is nominal.

Yup...the Oilers are indeed the big dawg in town. Not disputing that. In the 80's the Oilers were a contender and still Edmonton sold 40,000 season tickets year after year...how do you account for that?

Winning matters? Does it really? Peanuts drawn in Calgary and BC despite recent Grey Cup Wins. Same with Toronto.

This is false.

Calgary and BC drew 30,000 and 28,000 fans respectively. Hardly peanuts when Edmonton (the team you consider to have the best support in the CFL) drew 33,000.

I don't think Edmonton will be too different. Comparing it to the 80's is absurd given alot of variables have changed since then (population growth, alternative entertainment options, shift in interest from younger generation, etc.)

You dismissal is perplexing. I really dont think you understand the economic factors involved here.

It's a scientific piece - here, I'll simplify it for you. Read this passage:



You are likely among the CFL's best demographic group. A shame your children/grandchildren/nieces/nephews will not religiously follow the CFL like you did.

Ummm...I hate to break it to you but this isnt science.

Using per-capita is pretty silly, period. A city like Red Deer can draw 5K per game in the WHL - should that mean Edmonton draw 50K?

No.

What it means is that there is a cutoff point by which the population of a community does matter.

I illustrated that pretty clearly...I suggest you reread the previous post to joestevens.

Nobody is arguing that Saskatchewan is a better CFL market. Everyone here is just countering your silly point that it is the only market Edmonton should compare itself to. There are 7 other CFL markets and Edmonton outdraws them considerably.

What? Again you use straw man tactics and try to re-frame my position.
I have stated time and time again that the small city of Regina supports its football team better than any bigger market in the CFL. That was part of the argument.

The other part was that you think that entertainment optiins take away from football support.

You named things like K-days, festivals...et al and even used non factors like the World Cup to try and support your position.

You have moved the goalposts, misrepresented my position and danced around in vain.
Perhaps you should take a break.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

What? Again you use straw man tactics and try to re-frame my position.
I have stated time and time again that the small city of Regina supports its football team better than any bigger market in the CFL. That was part of the argument.

The other part was that you think that entertainment optiins take away from football support.

You named things like K-days, festivals...et al and even used non factors like the World Cup to try and support your position.

You have moved the goalposts, misrepresented my position and danced around in vain.
Perhaps you should take a break.

except its not just Regina supporting the team...its the whole province...many travel hours to games there

they have a population of over 1 million to draw from

 

[guymez]

except its not just Regina supporting the team...its the whole province...many travel hours to games there

they have a population of over 1 million to drew from

The city of Regina has a population of about 190,000. I have used the 250,000 number to account for the wider dispersion of fans.

At the end of the day (when we are talking about 30,000 football supporters) its still apples and oranges comparing a market well over 1 million to a community like Regina and surrounding area.

 

[guymez]

Sure but it doesnt make us look bad when compared to the rest of the league.

I hate the talk of Rider fans like they are something special and the league exists only for them and only because of them. Screw the per capita crap, by the numbers the Eskimos lead the league in attendance year after year. Edmonton should be proud of it and I think the fact we arent actually turns people away.

No need for the hypersensitivity...this isnt about denigrating Edmonton.

Its simply about taking off the home team blinders and acknowledging what a unique market Regina is.

Try as you might by dismissing the small size of their market as irrelevant in reality its quite noteworthy how they find a way to support their CFL team.

I am kind of perplexed at the desire to try and dismiss that simply because you (and others) allow yourself to be blinded by civic pride.

 

[Speed220DChalavan]

Young people are fickle. Winning does matter....always has because it influences how a team is perceived.
So we shall just have to agree to disagree on this.

If winning does matter, why haven't Calgary/Vancouver/Toronto seen a noticeable uptick in attendance?

Answer me that.

Yup...the Oilers are indeed the big dawg in town. Not disputing that. In the 80's the Oilers were a contender and still Edmonton sold 40,000 season tickets year after year...how do you account for that?

1. An unsustainable dynasty team, for which momentum had already carried over prior to the NHL coming to Edmonton. As people realized the CFL was a 2nd rate league relative to the NHL, attendance suffered rapidly.

2. Much fewer entertainment options relative to today.

3. Different demographics. The NFL was no where near as popular in Canada as it is today.

This is false.

Calgary and BC drew 30,000 and 28,000 fans respectively. Hardly peanuts when Edmonton (the team you consider to have the best support in the CFL) drew 33,000.

But by your metric (per-capita), Vancouver should be drawing much more.

Calgary has had a 13-14 wins team for the last few years - yet attendance has decreased. What is your explanation here?

Ummm...I hate to break it to you but this isnt science.

Explain.

What? Again you use straw man tactics and try to re-frame my position.
I have stated time and time again that the small city of Regina supports its football team better than any bigger market in the CFL. That was part of the argument.

You are using Regina (which is not a fair comparable) to downplay Edmonton leading the attendance for all but 3 years since 1992, instead of comparing it to 7 other markets.

The other part was that you think that entertainment optiins take away from football support.

You named things like K-days, festivals...et al and even used non factors like the World Cup to try and support your position.

Your argument is that football fans will prioritize the CFL. Problem is, the younger generation is no longer attached to the CFL like the older generation was. Thus, other non-CFL events (sports or not) are taking swaying away fans from that avenue of sport.

I'm in my late 20's. Can tell you with fact that the only football discussion is the NFL. The CFL is mocked routinely, and the CFL doesn't really do itself any favours with the sub-par product and bush league antics.

 

[Beerfish]

1) The NFL has better players, the NFL is by FAR a worse product game design ways. (And I'm saying this as a both a big NFL and CFL fan)
2) Oilers vs Eskimos is apples to oranges. The number of games, price points etc make them too different to put up against each other.

I would argue any day of the week and twice on sunday that the CFL is a far better bang for your buck than the NHL.

 

[Speed220DChalavan]

1) The NFL has better players, the NFL is by FAR a worse product game design ways. (And I'm saying this as a both a big NFL and CFL fan)

What does that even mean?

2) Oilers vs Eskimos is apples to oranges. The number of games, price points etc make them too different to put up against each other.

I would argue any day of the week and twice on sunday that the CFL is a far better bang for your buck than the NHL.

Ah, feel good reasons that provide CFL fans with security and comfort.

 

[member 145483]

I would argue any day of the week and twice on sunday that the CFL is a far better bang for your buck than the NHL.

Although, as a much bigger hockey fan than football fan, I would agree, it is unfortunate that 'bang for your buck' is no longer the selling feature that it used to be.