News Article: The Derek Boogaard Documentary on the culture of hockey

[harpoon]

As far as fighting in the nhl is concerned I'm all in favour of getting rid of it, but imo that discussion starts with multiplying the suspensions for dirty hits etc by about 3 as well as the ramifications for the clubs who send their Matt Cooke types out on the ice.

Exactly. I would venture to guess that by far the greater number of serious injuries occur as a result of bodychecking/stickwork and not fighting.
Hockey is a violent game played at top speed. If you don't accept that, don't play.
Once fighting gets banned, its only a matter of time until certain segments want bodychecking banned as well.
Leave the game alone.

If your kid signs up for mma you know they are fighting. If you sign them up for hockey and they're not a fighter what happens when someone forces them to fight like happened to Ryan Miller among others? Helmet off, if they land on the back of the head they are messed up or maybe dead.

Respectfully, that's a weak argument imo.
You could just as easily end up "messed up or dead" if you take up mountain biking, or snowboarding. And I've never seen a fight in either of those sports.
Its a dangerous world out there once you get off your sofa.

To be truthful, I quit playing hockey seriously when I was about sixteen because I got tired of having to answer the bell against guys who had five inches and twenty pounds on me. That was my decision. But I never for a minute thought that fighting should be out of the game, and indeed I willingly engaged in many fights for what I thought were justifiable reasons at the time.

I thoroughly despise MMA and think that it's barbaric. It really bothers me that it is a form of entertainment for some, yet I have good friends who love it, and I've argued with them about it.

Great post. Totally agree with the bolded. Here in Japan, a company I do some work for used to be a sponsor for K1 fights. I was always invited to attend and sit in the nice sponsor seating. People couldn't understand why I always refused.
In my opinion that kind of stuff is really only one step away from gladiators. Doesn't interest me in the slightest.

But I still think a sixty second fight in an ice hockey game between two willing combatants - in the heat of the moment - is a part of the game that should never be changed. Guys like Boogaard and Smac need to get out of the league though.

 

[Moose Coleman]

Exactly. I would venture to guess that by far the greater number of serious injuries occur as a result of bodychecking/stickwork and not fighting.
Hockey is a violent game played at top speed. If you don't accept that, don't play.
Once fighting gets banned, its only a matter of time until certain segments want bodychecking banned as well.
Leave the game alone.

You are aware that bodychecking is allowed now, whereas fighting is against the rules? It can also be said that bodychecking serves and actual gameplay function, whereas fighting does not, really.

Respectfully, that's a weak argument imo.
You could just as easily end up "messed up or dead" if you take up mountain biking, or snowboarding. And I've never seen a fight in either of those sports.
Its a dangerous world out there once you get off your sofa.

To be truthful, I quit playing hockey seriously when I was about sixteen because I got tired of having to answer the bell against guys who had five inches and twenty pounds on me. That was my decision. But I never for a minute thought that fighting should be out of the game, and indeed I willingly engaged in many fights for what I thought were justifiable reasons at the time.

Hockey is an intrinsically dangerous sport so it makes sense that one should look at way of minimizing the amount of risk to players. If getting rid of fighting has even a small health and safety benefit, it should be considered.

But I still think a sixty second fight in an ice hockey game between two willing combatants - in the heat of the moment - is a part of the game that should never be changed. Guys like Boogaard and Smac need to get out of the league though.

If it's intrinsic, then it would be definition be impossible to remove entirely. What they can and should do is increase the sanctions fighting players face so as to cut back on unnecessary staged fights.

 

[Oi'll say!]

Respectfully, that's a weak argument imo.
You could just as easily end up "messed up or dead" if you take up mountain biking, or snowboarding. And I've never seen a fight in either of those sports.
Its a dangerous world out there once you get off your sofa.

To be truthful, I quit playing hockey seriously when I was about sixteen because I got tired of having to answer the bell against guys who had five inches and twenty pounds on me. That was my decision. But I never for a minute thought that fighting should be out of the game, and indeed I willingly engaged in many fights for what I thought were justifiable reasons at the time.

I hear you, imo the difference is that people choose to take their own risks mountain biking or snowboarding. It's all on them.

When a 16 year old kid is trying to live his dream and he has a well-respected adult (coach) that's in a position of immense power over him and his hockey career, telling him that he "should" do something those kids are not choosing to take their own risks. An adult who uses that position of power to convince another adult to have sex is committing a felony but it's "legal" to use it to convince a minor to go beat up another minor and risk serious injury???? It's sick.

What kid is going to ignore Brian Kilrea or Dona Hay and just play the game straight up? (not to single those guys out, I have no evidence or reason to believe that they are offenders, just grabbing names from the top of my head)

It's also not the same thing as when an opposing coach tells someone to do it to you or your kid. I don't think that parents should have to subject their children to that level of violence if they want to play hockey.


FWIW I'm neither a pacifist nor a warmonger, I like to believe I am a realist and I don't know if fighting can ever be totally banned. I understand why people want to fight when they get clubbed with a 5 foot long piece of hardwood. I have been suspended from beer leagues for fighting and had people ask me "Why do you fight, it's just a beer league?" and I would say "If I was getting paid to suck it up and try to draw a penalty when someone sticks me I might, but I'm not." I think pros can suck it up, and it also helps that there are suspensions, fines and video evidence to make sure they get their justice. I also understand when they get too mad to just suck it up, but I think fighting can be reduced drastically when the reasons for fighting are reduced.

If Kassian got a 30 or 40 game suspension and the team was penalised then I wouldn't care if Gazdic never even gave him a dirty look. I'd be happier having Arco or Lander get into another game. Kassian got basically zero and the Canucks came out miles ahead in that exchange.


In a recent incident, Carey Price may have been injured in game 1 of the eastern conference championships by an "accidental" collision with a player who injured another goalie this year in an "accidental" collision. Guaranteed the NHL wants to be weak and just let him get away with it, and now the toothpaste is out of the tube. If Bettman wants to stop fighting in this league he has to play the role of enforcer himself but we all know this awkward stage of fighting/not fighting is going to carry on.

 

[Everest]

The NHL doesn't have to ban fighting.

The rule should be 5 + a GM just like it is in all levels of Hockey Canada.

 

[Jumptheshark]

The NHL doesn't have to ban fighting.

The rule should be 5 + a GM just like it is in all levels of Hockey Canada.

I agree-- one fight and your gone

 

[Hockey Buddha]

The NHL doesn't have to ban fighting.

The rule should be 5 + a GM just like it is in all levels of Hockey Canada.

That should be the next step.

 

[Senor Catface]

The NHL doesn't have to ban fighting.

The rule should be 5 + a GM just like it is in all levels of Hockey Canada.

This seems like a simple step, and a good one.

 

[Kinibo]

To be honest, I really don't have a problem with fighting. Maybe I should, but I don't.

What I have more of a problem with is the level of violence during the course of normal play. Has anybody been watching the playoffs this year? Elbows, crosschecks, punches, charging, you name it. And most all of it targeted at the head, while the refs shove their whistles in their pockets, and the TV analysts and us fans praise it all as "letting them play". Yep, good, rough and tumble old time hockey.

The danger that exists from a flying elbow or a "clean" open ice hit on an unsuspecting opponent is generally far more than that which exists from any punch thrown between two willing combatants. When hockey experiences its first on-ice death (which frankly I'm amazed hasn't happened yet), it will almost definitely be from the former rather than the latter.

 

[Hockey Buddha]

To be honest, I really don't have a problem with fighting. Maybe I should, but I don't.

What I have more of a problem with is the level of violence during the course of normal play. Has anybody been watching the playoffs this year? Elbows, crosschecks, punches, charging, you name it. And most all of it targeted at the head, while the refs shove their whistles in their pockets, and the TV analysts and us fans praise it all as "letting them play". Yep, good, rough and tumble old time hockey.

The danger that exists from a flying elbow or a "clean" open ice hit on an unsuspecting opponent is generally far more than that which exists from any punch thrown between two willing combatants. When hockey experiences its first on-ice death (which frankly I'm amazed hasn't happened yet), it will almost definitely be from the former rather than the latter.

Deaths from MMA and boxing matches indicate that cerebral hemorrhaging is distinct possibility with blows to the head. When players unprotected heads collide with the ice after being TKO'd or thrown to the ice during a fight, that's imo where the biggest danger for fatalities lies from fighting. Parros was very fortunate recently.

The league has cracked down on players who show blatant disregard for other players and cross that line, but like you Kinibo, I'm really not sure why the rules need to change so drastically for the playoffs. It's been that way as long as I've been watching though.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I find it incredibly hypocritical that people in NA want to ban fighting in hockey (where your longest fight might be ninety seconds) yet MMA and all its various spin-offs is one of the most popular and fastest growing sports in Canada/US.

Agreed. I also think that it's hypocritical when I bring up hockey here that most think of fighting first and then say that it's too violent, yet they love MMA. That said it is sad that some of these guys have long lasting health issues or lose their lives. That said look at guys like Debrusk and Chase, both used their fists to get to where they are and are now being paid for their minds as well.

 

[Moose Coleman]

Agreed. I also think that it's hypocritical when I bring up hockey here that most think of fighting first and then say that it's too violent, yet they love MMA.

I don't care for MMA, but it's not hypocritical at all for someone to enjoy that and not be a fan of fighting in hockey. Fighting is obviously central to MMA. It is not central to hockey.

 

[LaGu]

I didn't play very much hockey growing up, my parents though it was too violent of a sport... That said, we are talking about kid/junior hockey in Sweden, i.e. absolutely no fighting allowed under any circumstances.

Personally I was shocked when I saw my first hockey fight. For many years it was a oddity but once I started watching NA hockey regularly I guess I got used to it. Thinking back though I believe that my reaction was based on something correct, which was the questioning of the what fighting had to do with hockey.

So for me there is a huge difference if you talk about for example MMA in which the point is to win a fight.

 

[Hockey Buddha]

I didn't play very much hockey growing up, my parents though it was too violent of a sport... That said, we are talking about kid/junior hockey in Sweden, i.e. absolutely no fighting allowed under any circumstances.

Personally I was shocked when I saw my first hockey fight. For many years it was a oddity but once I started watching NA hockey regularly I guess I got used to it. Thinking back though I believe that my reaction was based on something correct, which was the questioning of the what fighting had to do with hockey.

So for me there is a huge difference if you talk about for example MMA in which the point is to win a fight.

Knowing what we now know about the long-term impact on the brain with hockey enforcers makes it fairly indefensible for me to continue with the belief that fighting should remain a part of the game. I grew up with fighting in hockey and even participated in it as a player to a degree.

I've never held a view that supported MMA, but I was also older when MMA came into existence as a sanctioned sport in North America, so it was less a part of the culture that I was familiar with growing up. MMA does hold a lure for young men and predominantly male audiences; I know more than half a dozen guys who participate in it and a whole lot more people who enjoy watching it. I do think that it has a lot to do with male machismo and testosterone levels, and I do think that needs an outlet of some sort. Fantasy violence in video games seems like probably the safest alternative, but it also has some negative consequences as well (video game addiction among kids, and kids playing adult oriented games at a young age can be an issue imo).

I'm not sure what the answers are, but I am in favour of adjustments being made to the game, Everest's suggestion seems like the most logical adjustment for the game to move forward.

 

[Everest]

Knowing what we now know about the long-term impact on the brain with hockey enforcers makes it fairly indefensible for me to continue with the belief that fighting should remain a part of the game. I grew up with fighting in hockey and even participated in it as a player to a degree.

I've never held a view that supported MMA, but I was also older when MMA came into existence as a sanctioned sport in North America, so it was less a part of the culture that I was familiar with growing up. MMA does hold a lure for young men and predominantly male audiences; I know more than half a dozen guys who participate in it and a whole lot more people who enjoy watching it. I do think that it has a lot to do with male machismo and testosterone levels, and I do think that needs an outlet of some sort. Fantasy violence in video games seems like probably the safest alternative, but it also has some negative consequences as well (video game addiction among kids, and kids playing adult oriented games at a young age can be an issue imo).

I'm not sure what the answers are, but I am in favour of adjustments being made to the game, Everest's suggestion seems like the most logical adjustment for the game to move forward.

I believe that scoring & overall execution will actually increase when the core message which the rules communicate to the players is that they're expected to manage their emotions without being able to resort to violence.

A player can intimidate with physicality & violence.

A great player can intimidate with skill & intelligence.