News Article: The Derek Boogaard Documentary on the culture of hockey

[Jumptheshark]

If mods want toss this into one of the general threads they can--but in watching this doc and thinking about my short career in hockey and the mentality that many of us have towards fighting. This doc I think raises issues not about how the kids play hockey--but how us as adults put pressure on kids like Boogaard




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Boogaard


the body count a few years ago one off season of guys who we called enforcers or **** disturbers got high, Boogaard, rypkian, Belak, and others who's state of mind was linked to the style of game they played.

Is it time to reconsider the physical play at the lower levels of hockey? I realize the doc, even though by the New York Times on-line media, was a bit heavy handed--I think it is a good starting point for how we look at our kids playing junior hockey

Click to read more...

 

[Hockey Buddha]

John Kordic R.I.P.

 

[Replacement*]

John Kordic R.I.P.

I've visited his gravesite to commemorate and say goodbye and peace. People can PM me for location if they want. John has a beautiful view. Tragic story, and one that is all too common.

We need to learn from these tragedies, we need to demand they stop happening. Only one way as fans to do that. Make our opinions known and stand by them in words and actions. Otherwise there will be decades more of this and a continuing litany of personal tragedies.

Kudos to the thread. A topic people here know I'm very passionate about.

 

[StoveTopStauffer]

I thought it was pretty good. I find a lot of documentaries very preachy and often edited for a particular point of view (Food Inc, Supersize Me, Moore movies, etc). They rarely spread information without regard for the facts. I didn't find they preached "stop fighting!". Awareness of the consequences is important imo. Was good.

 

[Jumptheshark]

while some stuff was left out--the doc hit me hard

 

[Philly85*]

thanks for posting, everyone should watch. just a disturbing, tragic story.

 

[thadd]

I don't know why, but I kinda got out of watching hockey fights since leaving Canada a decade ago. I still watch hockey games, but I don't go crazy when I see a hockey fight any more.

Used to love watching Wendel Clarke, Taie Domi, Dave Brown, Dave Semenko, Bob Probert and Dave Manson fight. Would get incredibly excited every time they dropped the gloves.

Everyone who watches hockey should watch this documentary. If everyone watched it, teams wouldn't have enforcers any more. You'd still have a few Milan Lucic's around (Tough guys who can actually be very effective hockey players) but there wouldn't be people there for the soul reason of ringing your bell.

 

[Replacement*]

Myself I've taken it to the extent of NOT supporting the WHL with my dollars (despite them being a very attractive club to watch so its hard to remain committed to this)

I've done this because the WHL is arguably and consistently the worst offender when it comes to coaches tapping kids on the shoulder to fight. Years ago NY Times also had an excellent series of articles that outlined in detail how successive coaches in Boogaards development had offered toi grapes if only Boogaard would consistently fight. This is basically grooming the abuse, preparing a young kid with no proper understanding of the ultimate consequences to what his role in hockey was going to be until he was used up and critically injured (like happens today with nearly every hockey fighter). That there was no role, no minutes, period, to be had if Boogaard didn't drop em.

I have concerns with adults who should know better placing such implacable expectation on kids while in positions of authority.

In essence "you'll fight when I say and when I want if you want to remain on the club"

What kid like Boogaard is going to say no to that?

This is basically what happened to Boogaard and what happens to many and still happens. The sickening thing is this has been going on for countless decades in the wild west of hockey. Bare knuckle pugilism for hire.

Bettmans response in the video is disgusting. Classic denial and maintenance of status quo.

"Actually we don't allow fighting there are penalties for it" What a ****ed up response in lieu of people dying due to the fighting. NHL doles out 5min matching penalties which ultimately punishes neither team nor player and with combatants both free to engage again soon as they get out of the box and do it all over again. Not like most of these guys really play much hockey either so 5mins sitting in the penalty box is entirely indistinguishable from the normal 10mins sitting on the bench..

Bettman should be made to answer what, really, is the NHL doing about bareknuckle fighting.

ps people that didn't read those NY Times articles ( written at the time that 3 different NHL fighters had all died around the same time) and read about such things as players faces being broken and having to go on planes and have their faces contort and decompress while on flights. This for instance happened to such local players as Smac and Souray. Imagine what it feels like for your face to be jelly and the bones moving around and your disassembled face falling apart while you're in continuous indescribable pain. imagine getting off that plane and lying to mom and the kids that daddy is OK, its alright, and knowing its all a lie, that I'll come home one day instead in a stretcher, virtually guaranteed and then it'll be worse.. Its unconscionable what we expect and allow the NHL gladiators to have to go through. Barbaric of course.

Only when fans start booing when fights happen, instead of cheering loudly, will this nonsense stop.

 

[Beerfish]

What has happened to a great many of these players is very tragic. Having said that most if not all of these type of players would not have been within 100 miles of the NHL if not for their physical prowess and willingness to mix it up on a nightly basis.

 

[voxel]

Here, people only attend the ECHL Solar Bears games to heckle and watch fights.

 

[Replacement*]

What has happened to a great many of these players is very tragic. Having said that most if not all of these type of players would not have been within 100 miles of the NHL if not for their physical prowess and willingness to mix it up on a nightly basis.

Of course in Boogaards, and many other fighters cases its obviously not ultimately been in their best interest. For young people with this being the supposed best option available to them I guess the possibility of NHL or pro hockey cheques are enticing. But Boogaard due to this ends up with a limited life and livelihood and only tragedy, while countless others that didn't make it this far likely suffer irreparable harm they to try to live the rest of their lives managing.

Theres several untold costs, and countless examples of players stories that don't typically see the light of day in the press. A real journalist would try tracking down the 100's of names of junior and farm team hockey prizefighters that didn't get anywhere close to the bigs, only got maimed and their noggin mashed, and live their lives with that. Those stories need to be out there as well and perhaps as examples to show others the real costs.

I get a bit testy at any suggestion that Boogaard making it to the show is ultimately a success. I wouldn't call it that, not saying anybody did, just saying.

One of the most striking things in the video is how little the player, or family typically realizes will be the dangers of this role. For instance the father stating he was always worried about his sons knuckles and how they would endure. Not even thinking about how the brain would. I would say that this lack of knowledge is due to how poorly reported, studied, and how much minimizing goes on in hockey, and in the NHL, to these realities. Maybe people make better decisions with better information.

 

[McTedi]

Of course in Boogaards, and many other fighters cases its obviously not ultimately been in their best interest. For young people with this being the supposed best option available to them I guess the possibility of NHL or pro hockey cheques are enticing. But Boogaard due to this ends up with a limited life and livelihood and only tragedy, while countless others that didn't make it this far likely suffer irreparable harm they to try to live the rest of their lives managing.

Theres several untold costs, and countless examples of players stories that don't typically see the light of day in the press. A real journalist would try tracking down the 100's of names of junior and farm team hockey prizefighters that didn't get anywhere close to the bigs, only got maimed and their noggin mashed, and live their lives with that. Those stories need to be out there as well and perhaps as examples to show others the real costs.

I get a bit testy at any suggestion that Boogaard making it to the show is ultimately a success. I wouldn't call it that, not saying anybody did, just saying.

One of the most striking things in the video is how little the player, or family typically realizes will be the dangers of this role. For instance the father stating he was always worried about his sons knuckles and how they would endure. Not even thinking about how the brain would. I would say that this lack of knowledge is due to how poorly reported, studied, and how much minimizing goes on in hockey, and in the NHL, to these realities. Maybe people make better decisions with better information.

This was a very eye opening piece and I found it very moving. Especially some of Derek's journal entries and the interviews with his mom and dad. It made me rethink my personal views on fighting and the roles enforcers play in hockey. What I found most disturbing was Bettman's view of fighting in hockey and him playing down the effects of*multiple concussions despite the medical evidence provided. Thanks*for providing this very insightful piece.

 

[Philly85*]

What has happened to a great many of these players is very tragic. Having said that most if not all of these type of players would not have been within 100 miles of the NHL if not for their physical prowess and willingness to mix it up on a nightly basis.

Of course you're right. But what does that say about how messed up the culture is in our society. There some dark **** that lies beneath in this ultra conservative, good ol Canadian boy type of hockey culture in Canada, especially rural Canada. It's too bad someone couldn't of helped steer him or encourage him to another path, other sport. Just a waste of a life essentially, all in the name of an unnecessary position in the sport. Some dreams aren't good, flat out. Sometimes you got to save people from themselves.

 

[Replacement*]

Of course you're right. But what does that say about how messed up the culture is in our society. There some dark **** that lies beneath in this ultra conservative, good ol Canadian boy type of hockey culture in Canada, especially rural Canada. It's too bad someone couldn't of helped steer him or encourage him to another path, other sport. Just a waste of a life essentially, all in the name of an unnecessary position in the sport. Some dreams aren't good, flat out. Sometimes you got to save people from themselves.

Its inate frontier heritage speaking through our bloodlines. We're generationally born of adventurers not too shy to take on new lands. Canadians and Aussies are brash and brave by nature. Often too much for our own good.

 

[harpoon]

I find it incredibly hypocritical that people in NA want to ban fighting in hockey (where your longest fight might be ninety seconds) yet MMA and all its various spin-offs is one of the most popular and fastest growing sports in Canada/US.

 

[oilers2k10]

I find it hilarious how people all cry when someone gets hurt because of fighting in hockey yet the same people cheer loud when players drop the gloves. Even announcers..they'll get all excited if two players go at it but if one of the combatants get knocked out they'll say somethin like "nobody wants to see this..lets hope he's ok"

When you fight you throw punches..when you throw punches you aim at the opponents head..when that happens theres a very good chance of someone going down..possibly getting hurt badly..with or without long term effects to the brain.

If you dont want that to happen..then dont stand up and clap for exactly that happening.

So now there's former enforcers and **** disturbers who only got to the NHL playing that role..trying to sue the NHL. Did they blow all their money on drugs and alcohol? So now theyre depressed and broke..and are desperate and want to blame someone for their actions?

Being a pornstar is risky business..and likely would **** you up for life mentally and possibly physically..is it illegal? No. Good for you? Probably Not.
Do MMA fighters live quality of life after retirement? Many probably dont...but it was their choice..its not illegal, they signed up for it...so quit *****ing.

Kids are taught to hit, instigate in post whistle scrums..never to back down, and stand up for your teammates by fighting..so when someone gets seriously hurt doing it everyone freaks out.

This is life, you make choices..many players have lived great lives and set their families up financially for generations because of the dangers they put themselves in night after night..

If they dont want to accept the risks and deal with the possibly consequences afterwards then find another job in a different trade.

It really sucks that this happened to Darek Boogard. But he chose to be a fighter..he chose to overdose on drugs. He knew it wasnt good for him. I dont wish what happened to him on anybody.
There's lots of former NHL enforcers who are dealing with it, some make it some dont.

They should probably just ban fighting all together..too much risk. Not only for the players well being..but for culture in hockey all together..it encourages violence and bullying not only in hockey but elsewhere as well.
Growing up it wasnt the kids who were in martial arts..or boxing that bullied others..it was the hockey and football jocks. Difference is MMA is formed from an Art that teaches and values respect..Hockey and Football its all about ego, dont **** with me mentality.

 

[Replacement*]

I find it incredibly hypocritical that people in NA want to ban fighting in hockey (where your longest fight might be ninety seconds) yet MMA and all its various spin-offs is one of the most popular and fastest growing sports in Canada/US.

C'mon. I hate MMA for the identical same reason, many people do.

No inconsistency in this, just different factions of people believing in different things.

 

[Replacement*]

I find it hilarious how people all cry when someone gets hurt because of fighting in hockey yet the same people cheer loud when players drop the gloves. Even announcers..they'll get all excited if two players go at it but if one of the combatants get knocked out they'll say somethin like "nobody wants to see this..lets hope he's ok"

When you fight you throw punches..when you throw punches you aim at the opponents head..when that happens theres a very good chance of someone going down..possibly getting hurt badly..with or without long term effects to the brain.

If you dont want that to happen..then dont stand up and clap for exactly that happening.

So now there's former enforcers and **** disturbers who only got to the NHL playing that role..trying to sue the NHL. Did they blow all their money on drugs and alcohol? So now theyre depressed and broke..and are desperate and want to blame someone for their actions?

Being a pornstar is risky business..and likely would **** you up for life mentally and possibly physically..is it illegal? No. Good for you? Probably Not.
Do MMA fighters live quality of life after retirement? Many probably dont...but it was their choice..its not illegal, they signed up for it...so quit *****ing.

Kids are taught to hit, instigate in post whistle scrums..never to back down, and stand up for your teammates by fighting..so when someone gets seriously hurt doing it everyone freaks out.

This is life, you make choices..many players have lived great lives and set their families up financially for generations because of the dangers they put themselves in night after night..

If they dont want to accept the risks and deal with the possibly consequences afterwards then find another job in a different trade.

It really sucks that this happened to Darek Boogard. But he chose to be a fighter..he chose to overdose on drugs. He knew it wasnt good for him. I dont wish what happened to him on anybody.
There's lots of former NHL enforcers who are dealing with it, some make it some dont.

They should probably just ban fighting all together..too much risk. Not only for the players well being..but for culture in hockey all together..it encourages violence and bullying not only in hockey but elsewhere as well.
Growing up it wasnt the kids who were in martial arts..or boxing that bullied others..it was the hockey and football jocks. Difference is MMA is formed from an Art that teaches and values respect..Hockey and Football its all about ego, dont **** with me mentality.

Again this is a post that assumes people that are anti fighting are the ones jumping up screaming over a fight. Not the case imo.

Being a porn star, now that's got its fringe benefits and I don't have any stage fright or performance anxiety..lol Can't see pornstars getting the same nightmares that guys that have to fight monsters night after night do. Yeah so probably bad comparison. Dream job vs job from hell for most red blooded males. Can't say I agree at all with the bolded..

 

[Seedling]

Powerful and sad.

 

[Hockey Buddha]

I find it incredibly hypocritical that people in NA want to ban fighting in hockey (where your longest fight might be ninety seconds) yet MMA and all its various spin-offs is one of the most popular and fastest growing sports in Canada/US.

This is a complex issue for me, and I am not in favour of fighting, but it's not a clear black and white issue for me. I thoroughly despise MMA and think that it's barbaric. It really bothers me that it is a form of entertainment for some, yet I have good friends who love it, and I've argued with them about it.

That said, as a kid, I used to enjoy boxing (Ali was my childhood hero and look where boxing landed him) and hockey scraps too, but the older I get, the more I dislike fighting for what it is and its known consequences.

Contact sports are tough on the body/brain. Lineman in football have similar issues with concussions and brain injuries from repeated head trauma. I suspect all contact sports have somewhat similar issues. Even heading the ball in soccer, a non-contact sport, has been linked to adverse effects on the brain.

As stated, the issue is not entirely black and white for me for a few reasons. I would like to see fighting removed from the game, no question. However, as long as the NHL and NHLPA condone fighting like they do, I think teams need to protect themselves from the thuggery of enforcers on other teams.

I feel similarly with nuclear weapons. I don't like them, and genuinely wish humans would rid the World of them, but until then, I want NATO to have them to operate as a deterrant. I would also say that the NHLPA has a part to play in this as well. It's clearly not only the NHL who supports it; it's also the players. While it's easy to point the finger at Bettman, the players believe that it has a place in the game and likewise support it. I think that the NHL would probably have to listen, if the players suggested otherwise.

Another thing that blurs the issue for me is my belief that humans are inherently violent by nature--particularly young men--and that sports are symbolic forms of warfare. I would be curious to know the impact of vicarious violence in sport. I do wonder if such events decrease societal aggression and violence rather than increase it, or if it has any impact at all. My initial thoughts are that contact sports--even violent video games for that matter--probably reduce aggression among young males within the larger society. I know that studies are mostly conducted looking for a correlation between societal violence and video game violence, but I'm more inclined to believe otherwise. There do not seem to be any studies that can adequately confirm a correlation, so it creates an endless circular debate. I'm really not sure how you could adequately confirm any such hypothesis, one way or another, but I do wonder why soccer hooliganism occurs at a non-contact sport, while fan violence at hockey games is far less frequent. I don't know the answer, it's just something that I've thought about.

Certainly documentary videos like this one about Boogaard and the many tragic consequences of hockey violence need to be thoughtfully considered. Ultimately, I would like to see fighting taken out of the game, but until the NHLPA is prepared for this development, I really don't see it changing.

Competition in sports is about domination. At it's heart, it is capitalist ideology playing itself out. Does that make rock concerts socialist endeavours.

We will always have young men willing to put themselves on the line for fame, wealth and glory. To what extent is the system responsible for protecting them? The Players Association and the league need to make the protection of players a priority, for sure. Still, when the league made visors mandatory to protect players from injury, what was the response of players who dropped the gloves? Where does the responsibility of the league end and the responsibility of the player kick in? Is it a league issue or a legal one? I don't know. It's complex.

If it isn't going to be eliminated altogether, I think that fighting should be more severely penalized, but I also believe that the players who actually play the game should be able to dictate the conditions under which it is played and what the consequences are for certain actions. They have the largest stake in all of this. If brain damage is a possible consequence of fighting, why wouldn't the players want to protect themselves from it? We make trade offs in life for our professions. We trade our time, our health, etc., but at what point is it not worth pursuing a particular goal? I think the tragedy of someone like Boogaard should give considerable pause for thought and a re-examination of how the game conducts itself. Ultimately, I do not think that this is a fan issue, Replacement; it's a player safety issue, and it's up to the league and the PA to sort it out.

 

[Oi'll say!]

Myself I've taken it to the extent of NOT supporting the WHL with my dollars (despite them being a very attractive club to watch so its hard to remain committed to this)

I've done this because the WHL is arguably and consistently the worst offender when it comes to coaches tapping kids on the shoulder to fight.

I hate fighting in the whl. I think it's ridiculous that kids take off their helmets to fight and it's just a matter of time before someone dies when they fall backwards onto the ice.

Really they need to invent a cage that rips off instead of a helmet. Like ****in wake up Bauer, Reebok, etc...!


As far as fighting in the nhl is concerned I'm all in favour of getting rid of it, but imo that discussion starts with multiplying the suspensions for dirty hits etc by about 3 as well as the ramifications for the clubs who send their Matt Cooke types out on the ice.

As an example, Sutton's hit on Landeskog should be at least 30 games imo. I like the big hits but a player as big as Sutton needs to get his shoulder down lower or go play football. In addition the Oilers should get a cap hit of about $1m for that hit and a fine for half that much.

It sounds like a lot but right now teams can still send out the Kassians and Cookes of the world to do their dirty work with laughable repercussions. Sutton's suspension was nothing, and the fact that Landeskog wasn't injured is not a mitigating factor imo. Kassian's suspension was a mooncast shadow of what Gagner went through.

 

[Oi'll say!]

I find it incredibly hypocritical that people in NA want to ban fighting in hockey (where your longest fight might be ninety seconds) yet MMA and all its various spin-offs is one of the most popular and fastest growing sports in Canada/US.

If your kid signs up for mma you know they are fighting. If you sign them up for hockey and they're not a fighter what happens when someone forces them to fight like happened to Ryan Miller among others? Helmet off, if they land on the back of the head they are messed up or maybe dead.


The level of violence in hockey needs to be toned down. I've been in my share of fights in my life, I think Gazdic needs to kick Kassian's head in, but I also think the nhl can take a better path. If the NHL does enough to protect their players then enforcers will become unnecessary. Teams and players will do a much better job of policing themselves when the ramifications for their actions are too large to be ignored. Playing in the NHL is a privilege.

 

[McTedi]

I find it hilarious how people all cry when someone gets hurt because of fighting in hockey yet the same people cheer loud when players drop the gloves. Even announcers..they'll get all excited if two players go at it but if one of the combatants get knocked out they'll say somethin like "nobody wants to see this..lets hope he's ok"

When you fight you throw punches..when you throw punches you aim at the opponents head..when that happens theres a very good chance of someone going down..possibly getting hurt badly..with or without long term effects to the brain.

If you dont want that to happen..then dont stand up and clap for exactly that happening.

So now there's former enforcers and **** disturbers who only got to the NHL playing that role..trying to sue the NHL. Did they blow all their money on drugs and alcohol? So now theyre depressed and broke..and are desperate and want to blame someone for their actions?

Being a pornstar is risky business..and likely would **** you up for life mentally and possibly physically..is it illegal? No. Good for you? Probably Not.
Do MMA fighters live quality of life after retirement? Many probably dont...but it was their choice..its not illegal, they signed up for it...so quit *****ing.

Kids are taught to hit, instigate in post whistle scrums..never to back down, and stand up for your teammates by fighting..so when someone gets seriously hurt doing it everyone freaks out.

This is life, you make choices..many players have lived great lives and set their families up financially for generations because of the dangers they put themselves in night after night..

If they dont want to accept the risks and deal with the possibly consequences afterwards then find another job in a different trade.

It really sucks that this happened to Darek Boogard. But he chose to be a fighter..he chose to overdose on drugs. He knew it wasnt good for him. I dont wish what happened to him on anybody.
There's lots of former NHL enforcers who are dealing with it, some make it some dont.

They should probably just ban fighting all together..too much risk. Not only for the players well being..but for culture in hockey all together..it encourages violence and bullying not only in hockey but elsewhere as well.
Growing up it wasnt the kids who were in martial arts..or boxing that bullied others..it was the hockey and football jocks. Difference is MMA is formed from an Art that teaches and values respect..Hockey and Football its all about ego, dont **** with me mentality.

I don't think he choose to overdose. He was addicted to the drugs helping him deal with pain and through reckless use OD'ed, a significant difference. I don't think thaT anyone choosing to speed wants to die in a car crash. You show a pretty callous attitude with the some make it some don't comment as well. It makes me think you didn't bother to listen to the message from his brothers or his parents, they aren't looking to blame anyone because there is no one to blame. They are saddened by the fact that they didn't see it coming even though it was right in front them the whole time. A very tragic story and one that doesn't need to keep happening but most likely will.

 

[Everest]

The most gruesome footage in this flim was Battman mincing his answer about why NHL allows fighting.

He flat out lied, while answering a life & death question.

That's the omnipotent power of $$$$ doing the talking.

Makes me want to puke,

 

[harpoon]

C'mon. I hate MMA for the identical same reason, many people do.

No inconsistency in this, just different factions of people believing in different things.

Apologies Replacement. In re-reading my post I can see how you may have thought I was calling contributors to this thread hypocritical.
I had no such intention.

You mentioned the articles on Boogaard in the Times. I believe we had discussions on this board when those came out.
I know your stance on fighting very well, and I respect it even though I entirely disagree.