The Dean Lombardi Kings and The Riddle of Size

[Rorschach]

I wasn't sure if I should start a thread or not on such a topic, but since this is the off-season for us, I figured why not. By the way, this isn't an area to debate who to choose for our #2OA, we have a ton of threads for that already.
This thread is to help clarify (hopefully) our mutual understandings here of this generation's Kings team and its "heavy" preference for large players.

In 2012 playoffs, the Kings got a lot of visibility in the NHL for having a team full of big bodies and played a heavy, physical game. After they won the Cup with the modern day record of 16-4, not only did a lot of fans notice, a lot of other organizations started to copy this in hopes of duplicating some of the Kings playoff success.

Since that time to today, many people including Kings and non-Kings fans alike ascribe this heavy style of play and team building to the Kings, specifically, Dean Lombardi who built the 2012 Kings. And many of those same people also believe the NHL has moved on from that time where mobility is more important than size. I believe the latter may have a degree of truth when guys like Patrick Kane can win the Conn Smythe and Hart trophies, and young players like Alex Debrincat can enter the league, produce, and produce right away.

The current LA NHL squad has some holdovers from the 2012/2014 Cup winning teams, the big and heavy gamers like Anze Kopitar. But Blake and co. seemingly have built a prospect pool around guys who seemingly" have a non-stop motor" like Grundstrom, Fagemo, Turcotte, etc. and character players of decent but not huge size. Some on the HFB Kings have described this as the new direction of the Kings...the heavy set team was the previous direction.

However, I personally do NOT feel that the size thing and the heavy game of the Kings should be attributed to Dean Lombardi and the medium-sized never-give-up mobile players of character model of Blake is not really a new direction of Blake. I believe the time DL joined the Kings organization, this "new direction" was HIS original vision in the first place. That's why he spent our #4 pick on Thomas Hickey, a slightly undersized mobile RHD with a lot of guts...a guy who could move the puck and at the same time played hurt during his draft year. DL drafted other guys like this, medium-sized guys who could skate a bit but had guts, like Oscar Moller. He stated one of his ideal players he's looking for in the draft is Brendan Morrow, a guy who he passed on despite wanting him, watching the guy slip to like 25 and eventually become the captain of the team (Dallas) that drafted him.

I believe the Kings only started going big and heavy once Darryl Sutter was hired mid-season to replace Terry Murray during the 2011-12 season and only then did the guys like Dwight King and Jordan Nolan get a chance to sniff NHL ice time. Sutter was a former GM that Lombardi respected and he got a lot of "advice", solicited or not, from the elder GM now his coach, both in the Kings tenure and in the previous Sharks tenure as well. Once Sutter was out of the organization and the Kings thought it was time to rebuild for real (after the failure of the Kovalchuk experiment), the Kings went right back to drafting mobile, character guys again, Blake taking over for Lombardi.

The Kings seemingly stalled out the first time due to having a non-playoff coach (in my opinion) with Terry Murray, who was key in teaching the young Kings to play team defense night in and night out. It wasn't until Darryl Sutter took over did we get real results. But now that Sutter is not here and we have a coach who is much more inclined to coach a mobile style (as opposed to a defense-first style of Murray) and we seemingly have a drafting philosophy to match, it will be interesting to see how it turns out this time.

Discuss?

Click to read more...

 

[BigKing]

Taylor was much more obsessed with size than DL but that was also a product of the era.

Blake took Vilardi with his first ever pick, a guy who would not be the poster child for the "New NHL".

It is rumored that the Kings would have taken Dach if they had a choice between him and Turcotte, opting for the bigger center with less motor since they seemingly believe in Dach's skill level being above Turcotte's.

Basically, there isn't a one-size fits all philosophy. Kaliyev isn't known for his skating or character and is also not small. Some guys they draft are going to have character as one of their top traits (JAD comes to mind), some will have skating (Kupari) and others will have an all-around game with a nice projectable floor (Turcotte/Bjornfot). I think the only thing with them is that I don't see them taking a flier on a "head case" or someone with character red flags; however, it is not a prerequisite that every player they draft be future captain material.

I guess I can give you that they look at the skating and mobility more than in the past but that is the entire league: the days of Taylor Pyatt, Teubert, McIlrath, Kyle Beach etc...going in the Top 15 are over so this isn't a Kings only thing but rather the entire league.

 

[MxH0CKEY]

I wasn't sure if I should start a thread or not on such a topic, but since this is the off-season for us, I figured why not. By the way, this isn't an area to debate who to choose for our #2OA, we have a ton of threads for that already.
This thread is to help clarify (hopefully) our mutual understandings here of this generation's Kings team and its "heavy" preference for large players.

In 2012 playoffs, the Kings got a lot of visibility in the NHL for having a team full of big bodies and played a heavy, physical game. After they won the Cup with the modern day record of 16-4, not only did a lot of fans notice, a lot of other organizations started to copy this in hopes of duplicating some of the Kings playoff success.

Since that time to today, many people including Kings and non-Kings fans alike ascribe this heavy style of play and team building to the Kings, specifically, Dean Lombardi who built the 2012 Kings. And many of those same people also believe the NHL has moved on from that time where mobility is more important than size. I believe the latter may have a degree of truth when guys like Patrick Kane can win the Conn Smythe and Hart trophies, and young players like Alex Debrincat can enter the league, produce, and produce right away.

The current LA NHL squad has some holdovers from the 2012/2014 Cup winning teams, the big and heavy gamers like Anze Kopitar. But Blake and co. seemingly have built a prospect pool around guys who seemingly" have a non-stop motor" like Grundstrom, Fagemo, Turcotte, etc. and character players of decent but not huge size. Some on the HFB Kings have described this as the new direction of the Kings...the heavy set team was the previous direction.

However, I personally do NOT feel that the size thing and the heavy game of the Kings should be attributed to Dean Lombardi and the medium-sized never-give-up mobile players of character model of Blake is not really a new direction of Blake. I believe the time DL joined the Kings organization, this "new direction" was HIS original vision in the first place. That's why he spent our #4 pick on Thomas Hickey, a slightly undersized mobile RHD with a lot of guts...a guy who could move the puck and at the same time played hurt during his draft year. DL drafted other guys like this, medium-sized guys who could skate a bit but had guts, like Oscar Moller. He stated one of his ideal players he's looking for in the draft is Brendan Morrow, a guy who he passed on despite wanting him, watching the guy slip to like 25 and eventually become the captain of the team (Dallas) that drafted him.

I believe the Kings only started going big and heavy once Darryl Sutter was hired mid-season to replace Terry Murray during the 2011-12 season and only then did the guys like Dwight King and Jordan Nolan get a chance to sniff NHL ice time. Sutter was a former GM that Lombardi respected and he got a lot of "advice", solicited or not, from the elder GM now his coach, both in the Kings tenure and in the previous Sharks tenure as well. Once Sutter was out of the organization and the Kings thought it was time to rebuild for real (after the failure of the Kovalchuk experiment), the Kings went right back to drafting mobile, character guys again, Blake taking over for Lombardi.

The Kings seemingly stalled out the first time due to having a non-playoff coach (in my opinion) with Terry Murray, who was key in teaching the young Kings to play team defense night in and night out. It wasn't until Darryl Sutter took over did we get real results. But now that Sutter is not here and we have a coach who is much more inclined to coach a mobile style (as opposed to a defense-first style of Murray) and we seemingly have a drafting philosophy to match, it will be interesting to see how it turns out this time.

Discuss?

IDK if Moller is the right comparable to Brendan Morrow who was drafted in another era of hockey in the early late 90s and who actually plays a gutsy, energy style. I agree that Sutter was the reason for why the Kings played a heavy game though. I also think Sutter played a role in Lombardi tweaking his philosophy a bit to accommodate that heavy style.

I think what the Blues have now, which is the combination of the Kings old heavy game but with more speed is what is going to win championships in today's game. In addition to that, playing a "Speed" game with players making quicker decisions and not necessarily skating faster is what truly helps with winning. Looking back at the championship games NHLN has on and those Kings teams moved the puck up the ice so quick, it wasn't just their size and grit wearing other teams that won it, it was how quick they made passes out of the zone and through the neutral zone.

 

[ru4reals]

I've always liked size. Both teams last year in the finals were I believe two of the bigger teams. If we can get skill with size I'm all over that.

 

[BringTheReign]

Not exactly as relevant, but the early-mid 00s Hawks weren't small teams either. People liked to typecast those match-ups as big & heavy vs. fast, but in reality both teams were big, both teams were skilled, but one of them played a heavy forecheck & possession style (which on TV is the class big & heavy style) while the other played a transition-centric game.

 

[LAKings88]

Size isn’t important, it’s what you do with it......so I’ve been told.

 

[Johnny Utah]

The Kings have been tough and big since I’ve been a fan. They only were soft for a few years when Jeff Cowan or Andy Murray’s power play were the enforcers.

The Kings have always had a McSorley, Grimson, Belanger, Flinn, Brennan, Thornton, Ivanans, Westgarth and then Clifford/Nolan. Hell, Lombardi even added Carcillo.

The battles against the Canucks, Flames and Ducks over the years were always entertaining (at least when I started watching from 1992 thru a few years ago). The Kings had to be big and tough to compete and not get run out of the building. The issue is now that the league is changing - Vancouver is pretty soft now. Calgary is still tough and Tkachuk is a thorn in DD’s side. The Ducks have gone from size to younger and smaller as well. But I think as long as Blake is around, the Kings will cling size, which I love.

Kings were big and skilled at both forward and defense at the right time with amazing goaltending.

 

[BigKing]

The Kings have been tough and big since I’ve been a fan. They only were soft for a few years when Jeff Cowan or Andy Murray’s power play were the enforcers.

The Kings have always had a McSorley, Grimson, Belanger, Flinn, Brennan, Thornton, Ivanans, Westgarth and then Clifford/Nolan. Hell, Lombardi even added Carcillo.

The battles against the Canucks, Flames and Ducks over the years were always entertaining (at least when I started watching from 1992 thru a few years ago). The Kings had to be big and tough to compete and not get run out of the building. The issue is now that the league is changing - Vancouver is pretty soft now. Calgary is still tough and Tkachuk is a thorn in DD’s side. The Ducks have gone from size to younger and smaller as well. But I think as long as Blake is around, the Kings will cling size, which I love.

Kings were big and skilled at both forward and defense at the right time with amazing goaltending.

There just aren't really any designated enforcers anymore. Even MacDermid is expected to play more minutes than a Brennan/Flinn/Westgarth type.

That being said, MacDermid can go with anyone in the league so you don't feel bad at all when he is in the lineup but they are now missing that Clifford type player when Mac is sitting.

I don't think that Blake is "clinging" to size. As much as I love MacDermid, he is most likely not finding the ice once this team is legit again. I do think he is going to be like any GM in the league: if all things are equal when evaluating a player but one of them is bigger, you are going to lean towards the bigger player.

 

[King'sPawn]

I'll just throw some numbers out there for discussion.

During Lombardi's tenure, here's the distribution of size by position:

Forwards	Height	Count
22.9%	< 72"	11
41.7%	72-73"	20
35.4%	> 73"	17
Defense	Height
11.1%	< 72"	3
44.4%	72-73"	12
44.4%	> 73"	12
Goaltender	Height
14.3%	< 72"	1
71.4%	72-73"	5
16.7%	> 73"	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So Lombardi drafted 11 forwards under 6', 20 who were 6'0 or 6'1, and 17 who were taller than 6'1. Namely being that most people consider under 6' to be "smaller size" and taller than 6'1 is "bigger than average". It was my own cut off.

During Blake's tenure so far, here's the same distribution of size:

Forwards	Height	Count
33.3%	< 72"	4
33.3%	72-73"	4
33.3%	> 73"	4
Defense	Height
42.9%	< 72"	3
57.1%	72-73"	4
0.0%	> 73"
Goaltender	Height
0.0%	< 72"
0.0%	72-73"
100.0%	> 73"	4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I have not tried doing this under Dave Taylor's tenure, as trying to find measurements of kids dating back to earlier times is a little spotty, then it comes into question the unreliability of data if I choose different sources, etc.

 

[Sol]

The Kings were a team built solely on size and quick forecheck so they'd press on the D and cycle. And just throw the puck towards the net and crash.

The reason why the Kings fizzled out as quickly as they did is because they didn't dump these said players, but they also drafted players on size and not much focus on speed until it was too late. Playing a quick forecheck game isn't only about strategy, but also consistency. Once these players get a bit older they slow down even more. Kings were going for size too long and "character. Not too much on talent and speed.

The one thing that Blake is doing now that DL wasn't doing is taking the BPA during the drafts.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It helps having a team that can transition the puck. When you think of big teams you think of recent Cup champs or contenders like the Blues, Caps and Bruins, but look at these numbers (from the start of 2019-20).

The league average height was 73.1 inches (6'1") and the average weight is 199.3 lbs.

And here's how every team ranks in overall hits (mind you, this stat is VERY subjective depending on where the stat is recorded).
NHL.com Stats

The Kings placed just behind the Blues in hits last season. Then you have a team like Vancouver, one of the biggest in terms of height and weight, yet they ranked 23rd in the league in hits. You also look at the Lightning, Canadiens and Oilers, teams generally considered to be soft and undersized, who are high ranking in overall hits.

Essentially, it boils down to how you play, not some measurement in height and weight. The Kings were still a big team in 2016 when the Sharks embarrassed them in the playoffs, and they still weren't a small team in 2018 when Vegas skated circles around them.

It helps when you have a team that can keep up with the competition and also a squad that can transition the puck. You know, things the Kings haven't been so good at since 2014.

 

[BigKing]

The Kings were a team built solely on size and quick forecheck so they'd press on the D and cycle. And just throw the puck towards the net and crash.

The reason why the Kings fizzled out as quickly as they did is because they didn't dump these said players, but they also drafted players on size and not much focus on speed until it was too late. Playing a quick forecheck game isn't only about strategy, but also consistency. Once these players get a bit older they slow down even more. Kings were going for size too long and "character. Not too much on talent and speed.

The one thing that Blake is doing now that DL wasn't doing is taking the BPA during the drafts.

I think it is more of a case of the following:

-Kings didn't hit their stride until the strong depth pieces were exiting their primes. Your Stoll/Greene/Mitchell type guys were never adequately replaced and either left or were shells of their former selves by '15 or '16.

-Voynov

-Richards fizzling out so quickly. Like, he's still supposed to be playing for the Kings right now. Throw Gaborik in there too for one playoff run and a good 2015 and then bye bye.

-Trades for immediate help. You do the Richards trade still but those are nice pieces that went the other way. Don't know who the 1st would be and Simmonds is kind of broken down but Schenn is still a nice player. All the 1st for Penner/Sekera/Lucic add up.

I don't buy that it is because Lombardi drafted players on size while not caring about speed until it was too late: they just didn't have a lot of top picks. No 1st's in 2011, 2013, 2015 or 16. 2012 and '14 saw Pearson and Kempe be drafted in Round 1. They have decent size but are both good skaters with Kempe being known for it.

Along with Pearson in 2012, he also drafted Miller who won the AHL fastest skater competition. LaDue was not a size/character pick.
I'll give you 2013 with the Auger and Fasching (Remember when he was the steal of the draft?) picks but he took Kubalik in Round 7.
2014 has the aforementioned Kempe so speed right at the top. McKeown was an all-around guy with average size. Lintuniemi is a size pick.
Takes Wagner in 2015 who is the fastest King I've maybe ever seen. Cernak in Round 2 is a great pick but he f***ed that up.
Takes Clague in 2016 who is known for his skating.

If you want to argue that "it was too late" by the time he drafted speed and skill, I guess you can argue it but Pearson contributed to a Cup winner so I guess it comes down to when is it too late...2015? I see more of an issue with four guys I listed being current legit NHL players on other teams v. drafting them too late with only one of them--Pearson--contributing to the Kings. At least his 1st rounders during this time are NHL players, even if Kempe is kind of disappointing.

Forbort sticks out as a size pick and it stings but then he went and drafted a skill guy in Toffoli, something that he supposedly never did. Hell, his highest pick until Doughty was used on an undersized defenseman known for his skating.

Long story short: the lack of 1st round picks hurts and then everything hurts more when maybe your best draft picks made from 2012 - 2016 are currently playing for other teams with nothing to show for it except Lukas Parik and Markus Phillips. I think Blake eventually got Nouisainen out of the Kubalik trade so maybe something comes out of it.

 

[Johnny Utah]

It’s so crazy thinking and looking back now - Lombardi made very FEW mistakes his first few years but after the two cups he kept making mistake after mistake. And even the mistakes he made pre cups could be cleaned up by letting them go via free agency or trading them (Nagy, Cloutier, Willsie, Calder, Preissing).

Drafting Hickey, Teubert and giving Cloutier an extension are also a few of the pre cup mistakes DL made but as stated above so many post cup mistakes....

Not buying out Richards, extension for Gaborik, trading a first for Lucic, trading a first for Sekera. Trading McKeowan and Cernak.

 

[apocalypse]

I think what it's come down to is that a team can be successful with smaller players as long as their skilled. I think it's always been that way, but more so today. Clutch and grab hockey is on the way out and so I think you'll be seeing refs make those holding and obstruction calls.

We have a good collection of players in the system and so we should hold onto them. Drafting Byfield or Stutzle is a win-win for the Kings. The OP made a good point that the team is headed in the direction of gritty, energetic players and so I think that you can't lose with the draft this year.

 

[Token]

It helps having a team that can transition the puck. When you think of big teams you think of recent Cup champs or contenders like the Blues, Caps and Bruins, but look at these numbers (from the start of 2019-20).

The league average height was 73.1 inches (6'1") and the average weight is 199.3 lbs.

And here's how every team ranks in overall hits (mind you, this stat is VERY subjective depending on where the stat is recorded).
NHL.com Stats

The Kings placed just behind the Blues in hits last season. Then you have a team like Vancouver, one of the biggest in terms of height and weight, yet they ranked 23rd in the league in hits. You also look at the Lightning, Canadiens and Oilers, teams generally considered to be soft and undersized, who are high ranking in overall hits.

Essentially, it boils down to how you play, not some measurement in height and weight. The Kings were still a big team in 2016 when the Sharks embarrassed them in the playoffs, and they still weren't a small team in 2018 when Vegas skated circles around them.

It helps when you have a team that can keep up with the competition and also a squad that can transition the puck. You know, things the Kings haven't been so good at since 2014.

Yikes!

We are short and stout.

“this is my handle and this is my ... wait a minute, I’m a sugar bowl”!

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yikes!

We are short and stout.

“this is my handle and this is my ... wait a minute, I’m a sugar bowl”!

By the end of the season the Kings roster average was 6'1" and 200 lbs, with only four players under 6'0".

On average, the Kings are a bigger team than the Bruins, and they're not necessarily known as a soft team, and the Lightning are a bigger sized team on average than Boston as well. You also have teams that are considered to be fast clubs like the Golden Knights and Hurricanes who are bigger than the league average.

 

[johnjm22]

However, I personally do NOT feel that the size thing and the heavy game of the Kings should be attributed to Dean Lombardi and the medium-sized never-give-up mobile players of character model of Blake is not really a new direction of Blake. I believe the time DL joined the Kings organization, this "new direction" was HIS original vision in the first place. That's why he spent our #4 pick on Thomas Hickey, a slightly undersized mobile RHD with a lot of guts...a guy who could move the puck and at the same time played hurt during his draft year. DL drafted other guys like this, medium-sized guys who could skate a bit but had guts, like Oscar Moller. He stated one of his ideal players he's looking for in the draft is Brendan Morrow, a guy who he passed on despite wanting him, watching the guy slip to like 25 and eventually become the captain of the team (Dallas) that drafted him.

I believe the Kings only started going big and heavy once Darryl Sutter was hired mid-season to replace Terry Murray during the 2011-12 season and only then did the guys like Dwight King and Jordan Nolan get a chance to sniff NHL ice time.

The change in philosophy didn't happen when Sutter got here. It happened in the Summer of 2008.

Look at the trades and coaching change made that offseason:

Out:
Crawford (offensive minded coach)
Visnovsky
Cammalleri

In:
Murray (Defensive Coach)
Stoll
Greene
Sean O`Donnell
Denis Gauthier

Clearly there was a change in philosophy to a bigger more defensive oriented team at this time.

 

[Rorschach]

The change in philosophy didn't happen when Sutter got here. It happened in the Summer of 2008.

Look at the trades and coaching change made that offseason:

Out:
Crawford (offensive minded coach)
Visnovsky
Cammalleri

In:
Murray (Defensive Coach)
Stoll
Greene
Sean O`Donnell
Denis Gauthier

Clearly there was a change in philosophy to a bigger more defensive oriented team at this time.

You have a point with the defensemen but I believe it was when Sutter got here that we started to look for big forwards too.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

You have a point with the defensemen but I believe it was when Sutter got here that we started to look for big forwards too.

I believe it was Sutter who scouted Ontario and suggested bringing up Nolan and King.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

King and Nolan replaced Ethan Moreau and Trent Hunter.

Moreau was 6’3”, 219
Hunter was 6’3”, 217

King and Nolan were brought in to replace two big, old stiffs who could barely skate, not just to make the Kings a bigger team.

 

[johnjm22]

When Dean first came to the Kings he believed the "New" NHL was all about skating and offense. That's part of the reason the Kings picked Hickey so high; they over valued skating.

That philosophy changed after the 2007-08 season.

I think @Rorschach is pointing out the irony that we're sort of back to Dean's original philosophy.

That being said, current King's management hasn't shied away from selecting prospects with questionable skating (Vilardi, Kalyiev).

 

[johnjm22]

King and Nolan replaced Ethan Moreau and Trent Hunter.

Moreau was 6’3”, 219
Hunter was 6’3”, 217

King and Nolan were brought in to replace two big, old stiffs who could barely skate, not just to make the Kings a bigger team.

It would've been interesting if Azevedo would have got the call up in 2012. He was leading the Monarchs in scoring with 28 goals in 63 games.

Azevedo went on to have some pretty good seasons in Finland and the KHL.

 

[johnjm22]

You have a point with the defensemen but I believe it was when Sutter got here that we started to look for big forwards too.

Guys like Ponikarovsky and Penner were acquired when Terry was coach.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It would've been interesting if Azevedo would have got the call up in 2012. He was leading the Monarchs in scoring with 28 goals in 63 games.

Azevedo went on to have some pretty good seasons in Finland and the KHL.

They likely wanted Andrei Loktionov to get that spot and kept him up with the team most of the season, and probably thought Manchester would be better served keeping their leading scorer.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't think it would have been interesting at all, look what happened to Weal.

One turnover and out.