Management The Current State of the Bruins. Who to Blame?

GloryDaze4877

Barely Irrelevant
Jun 27, 2006
44,395
13,873
The Sticks (West MA)
This is going to be a long one, so bear with me (no B's pun intended).

I guess it's human nature to look to blame everything on one person/group, but I look at it a little differently.

I think Don Sweeney is a smart guy (hockey and otherwise), but I think he might be a better scout or Dir of Scouting than a GM? When he was AGM, I saw him scouting NCAA games and this really appeared to be his element? He has added to the scouting department every year he's been GM, and clearly understands the importance of drafting and development. This is ironic given that the 1st round of the 2015 draft has been a key component in the lack of talent beyond the Top 3. I don't have an answer for that, other than I believe the B's had no intention of making all three of those picks (which doesn't excuse the lack of preparation). I also believe that Sweeney may be handcuffed to an extent when it comes to "rebuilding" (more on that in the JJ section).

Like Dom, I was skeptical about Cassidy, but he has won me over for the most part. That said, I think he relies way too much on his 1st and 4th lines and isn't great about allowing chemistry to develop, except with those two units. One of the reasons this team has no secondary scoring is his insistence on keeping the first line together (the other is lack of cheap talent, which isn't Butch's fault). How many other teams in the league have their top three offensive options on one line? The answer is very few (if any) because nobody has the depth to do it, and that depth will worsen for everyone with expansion. In addition, I think his system of defensive responsibility leads to the team always being competitive, but I wonder if it hinders the F's a bit when it comes to generating offense/scoring.

I think Neely means well and wants the Bruins to do well, but I'm not sure he's the best guy to be running the team (ie the John Moore overreaction signing after the B's D got pushed around in the Tampa series)?? I don't know Cam Neely at all, but I think it's safe to say that he's a relatively smart guy who is extremely passionate about the game and believes there is a right and wrong way to play it. It's clear that he loves the game and the B's and basically sacrificed parts of his body to play said game. I admire all of that and it's why Cam is probably my favorite bruin all-time (Top 3 at the worst). However, none of this means that he's the best candidate to be the Prez or whatever his title is. I believe he has a tendency to overreact and has not adapted to the way the game is played now with physicality taking a back seat to speed and skill, which has resulted in FA signings like Beleskey and Backes, trades like Jimmy Hayes, and drafting players like Frederic (who I like) and Beecher over more skilled alternatives.

Next up, you have the players. I think for the most part, the B's have been blessed the last 10-15 years with some very good players and leaders in the room. They have won only one Cup over that time, but have had a lot of success, going to three SCF's and winning tons of games. That said, the players (and not Don Sweeney) were the ones at fault in 2019 for not winning the Cup. His moves (in part) got them to a Game 7 at home that they should have won. Sh** happens, and there are no guarantees, but lets not act like the players don't share a big chunk of the blame for losses like that and stretches like now, when they are not playing well.

I think JJ spends to the Cap every year, but I also tend to think it's all about the bottom line for him (as opposed to someone like Kraft, who was a fan before he was the owner). I have nothing to substantiate this, but I think JJ looks at the successes of the other teams in Boston, and I don't believe he has or will have the patience to rebuild this team properly, until it is forced upon him (which may be soon). Dom keeps saying that everything begins at the top. He may be directing this at Neely and Sweeney, but the tippity-top is really above them and the buck stops with JJ and his son presumably. Given Sweeney's apparent love of scouting and prospects, it is my belief that he probably would have preferred to build this roster a little differently, but was limited in his options. Again, while that sucks, it is not an excuse for lack of execution.

The point of this little exercise was to say that there are a number of people and factors at play when it comes to the success and/or failure of a team. Everyone bears some responsibility and everyone is at least partially to blame. So, while there are factions that want to lynch Sweeney and Neely, and some that want Cassidy fired, and some that want players traded, and some that want new ownership, none of them are completely right, or completely wrong.

Now you are saying to yourself, great Joe, then what should they do? Truth is, I don't know. They are in a tough spot with several of their key players aging out, and because of poor drafting and free agent signings they don't have a pipeline of talent at this moment to step in. I don't believe that any one change being proposed will fix the team. Personally, I think that the B's FO really needs to nail the draft, expansion and trades/FA signings now and in the offseason, otherwise this team is headed towards a stretch of bad/mediocre years and will need to be almost completely overhauled. I guess the difference between me and some fans is that I think that this is somewhat natural and incredibly hard to avoid (look at LA and CHI) with the way the league is set up (unless you have a generational talent like Crosby and even that's not a guarantee ie McJesus/EDM).

Bottom line is that I want the team to do well, and if that means firing Sweeney and Neely, or firing Cassidy, or trading players (even ones I like), or getting new ownership (unlikely) I am down for all of that...PROVIDED that there is some sort of plan, and better options than the people they get rid of.

I hope this wasn't too much of a waste of your time.
 

member 96824

Guest
How many other teams in the league have their top three offensive options on one line?

It seems like most teams that can execute on that, do. Not all, but some even go out of their way to play guys off their natural position to do so.

Let's look at some examples of most common linemates from Dobber this year and last from high scoring lines.

Stamkos-Point-Kucherov (when all three have been healthy, this has been the most common combo)
Giroux-Couturier-Voracek
Landeskog-MacKinnon-Rantanen
Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak
Connor-Schiefele-Laine
Teravainen-Aho-Svechnikov
Miller-Petterson-Boeser
Huberdeau-Barkov-Dadonov

Are there examples where the 3 best go LW, C, RW and they don't play together? Are they having success?

It seems like in the NHL right now, the only time that doesn't happen is if you can't make it happen because your two best players are centers (See: Drais, McDavid) or your top 4 all play the same position (Matthews-Marner, Tavares-Nylander). I'm not really finding anything substantial otherwise
 

Over the volcano

Registered User
Mar 10, 2006
34,307
18,750
Watertown
This is going to be a long one, so bear with me (no B's pun intended).

I guess it's human nature to look to blame everything on one person/group, but I look at it a little differently.

I think Don Sweeney is a smart guy (hockey and otherwise), but I think he might be a better scout or Dir of Scouting than a GM? When he was AGM, I saw him scouting NCAA games and this really appeared to be his element? He has added to the scouting department every year he's been GM, and clearly understands the importance of drafting and development. This is ironic given that the 1st round of the 2015 draft has been a key component in the lack of talent beyond the Top 3. I don't have an answer for that, other than I believe the B's had no intention of making all three of those picks (which doesn't excuse the lack of preparation). I also believe that Sweeney may be handcuffed to an extent when it comes to "rebuilding" (more on that in the JJ section).

Like Dom, I was skeptical about Cassidy, but he has won me over for the most part. That said, I think he relies way too much on his 1st and 4th lines and isn't great about allowing chemistry to develop, except with those two units. One of the reasons this team has no secondary scoring is his insistence on keeping the first line together (the other is lack of cheap talent, which isn't Butch's fault). How many other teams in the league have their top three offensive options on one line? The answer is very few (if any) because nobody has the depth to do it, and that depth will worsen for everyone with expansion. In addition, I think his system of defensive responsibility leads to the team always being competitive, but I wonder if it hinders the F's a bit when it comes to generating offense/scoring.

I think Neely means well and wants the Bruins to do well, but I'm not sure he's the best guy to be running the team (ie the John Moore overreaction signing after the B's D got pushed around in the Tampa series)?? I don't know Cam Neely at all, but I think it's safe to say that he's a relatively smart guy who is extremely passionate about the game and believes there is a right and wrong way to play it. It's clear that he loves the game and the B's and basically sacrificed parts of his body to play said game. I admire all of that and it's why Cam is probably my favorite bruin all-time (Top 3 at the worst). However, none of this means that he's the best candidate to be the Prez or whatever his title is. I believe he has a tendency to overreact and has not adapted to the way the game is played now with physicality taking a back seat to speed and skill, which has resulted in FA signings like Beleskey and Backes, trades like Jimmy Hayes, and drafting players like Frederic (who I like) and Beecher over more skilled alternatives.

Next up, you have the players. I think for the most part, the B's have been blessed the last 10-15 years with some very good players and leaders in the room. They have won only one Cup over that time, but have had a lot of success, going to three SCF's and winning tons of games. That said, the players (and not Don Sweeney) were the ones at fault in 2019 for not winning the Cup. His moves (in part) got them to a Game 7 at home that they should have won. Sh** happens, and there are no guarantees, but lets not act like the players don't share a big chunk of the blame for losses like that and stretches like now, when they are not playing well.

I think JJ spends to the Cap every year, but I also tend to think it's all about the bottom line for him (as opposed to someone like Kraft, who was a fan before he was the owner). I have nothing to substantiate this, but I think JJ looks at the successes of the other teams in Boston, and I don't believe he has or will have the patience to rebuild this team properly, until it is forced upon him (which may be soon). Dom keeps saying that everything begins at the top. He may be directing this at Neely and Sweeney, but the tippity-top is really above them and the buck stops with JJ and his son presumably. Given Sweeney's apparent love of scouting and prospects, it is my belief that he probably would have preferred to build this roster a little differently, but was limited in his options. Again, while that sucks, it is not an excuse for lack of execution.

The point of this little exercise was to say that there are a number of people and factors at play when it comes to the success and/or failure of a team. Everyone bears some responsibility and everyone is at least partially to blame. So, while there are factions that want to lynch Sweeney and Neely, and some that want Cassidy fired, and some that want players traded, and some that want new ownership, none of them are completely right, or completely wrong.

Now you are saying to yourself, great Joe, then what should they do? Truth is, I don't know. They are in a tough spot with several of their key players aging out, and because of poor drafting and free agent signings they don't have a pipeline of talent at this moment to step in. I don't believe that any one change being proposed will fix the team. Personally, I think that the B's FO really needs to nail the draft, expansion and trades/FA signings now and in the offseason, otherwise this team is headed towards a stretch of bad/mediocre years and will need to be almost completely overhauled. I guess the difference between me and some fans is that I think that this is somewhat natural and incredibly hard to avoid (look at LA and CHI) with the way the league is set up (unless you have a generational talent like Crosby and even that's not a guarantee ie McJesus/EDM).

Bottom line is that I want the team to do well, and if that means firing Sweeney and Neely, or firing Cassidy, or trading players (even ones I like), or getting new ownership (unlikely) I am down for all of that...PROVIDED that there is some sort of plan, and better options than the people they get rid of.

I hope this wasn't too much of a waste of your time.
Think you’re spot on.

Not really a surprise that they’re struggling after deciding to go all kids on the defensive end and then running into injury trouble in a condensed season. I mean like it or not we can’t say they haven’t had a plan.

I don’t mind them losing some games, but how they lose them is concerning as is Cassidy’s increasingly desperate comments about his players.
 

StrBender

Registered User
Mar 7, 2005
258
143
North Shore, MA
Nicely put. I believe the FO has gotten themselves into a real bind that they have no idea or direction on how to get themselves out of it. I hope they don't make drastic changes like firing the coach without first looking in the mirror themselves. When I watch the games now, it's almost too painful. I'm just waiting for the sh*t show to start. Not always, but more than it should be. I understand that it's not easy for the players, coaches, and staff to deal with Covis, and remember they have to live a much stricter lifestyle than most of us. But for the veterans, they should know how to get prepared for the games. You almost have that feeling that the players are waiting for the season to end.
 
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Absurdity

light switch connoisseur
Jul 6, 2012
10,730
6,731
Great post @GloryDaze4877 ! It brings me back to a similar thread I made back in 2017 just before Claude got fired.

I had the same questions 4 years ago. Like you mentioned, there are a lot of factors in play that leads us to where the Bruins currently stand.

Coach - Back in 2016-2017 I didn't think Claude was getting the most out of the roster. However, I also think the team stopped playing for him and his system. Bring it back to today's Bruins, I see the same thing happening. It is on the coach to coach the team, but how much of it is on him and how much of it is on the players for executing? I don't think this team is bad by any means, in fact, I think they are underperforming, but when there have been holes on the roster that have not been addressed in years, is it on Bruce? Again, how much of that is on the coach and how much of that is on the players and management? It's easier to fire the coach than it is half the team.

Players - They are underperforming and not playing Cassidy's system. I was happy when the Bruins hired Cassidy because he preached about quick transitions outside the defensive zone and into the neutral and offensive zones. He harped on triangle offense which contributed to the Bruins success in the playoffs against teams like Toronto. With Krug and Chara gone, two of the slowest defensemen that were on the team, I thought we would see more of that, reminiscent to the Bruins - Carolina series. The players are capable of playing that way, so why aren't they this season? There is a complete and utter failure to move their feet, make quick short passes, and build/sustain pressure in the offensive zone. Are they lazy, complacent? Claude was the fall guy 4 seasons ago. What is the excuse this time? I think it is 100% fine to question the talent on the team, but the players aren't even putting themselves in the position to succeed and score goals. It's one thing to generate chances and not finish, and another to not be generating any chances. There is a failure to execute.

Management
-
How many years has it been since they've needed a top 6 RW and have failed to deliver? It's hard to see what kind of team they want to build and what direction they want to go in. They fired Claude and hired their coach, Cassidy. At what point should the team's results be a reflection on Sweeney and Neely? Sweeney has shown he is able to make bold moves, why aren't we seeing anything materialize? I wouldn't be disappointed if both are shown the door.
 

member 96824

Guest
Appreciate the thought you put into this, and I know you and I both already know each others points haha.

This isn't a defense of Cam, I want him gone.

But this is a continuation of what I was talking about in the other thread. Everyone uses Cam as whatever they want him to be because no one is really sure of what is his and what isn't his.

Cam's the one responsible for the John Moore contract. Cam's responsible for Backes, Beleskey, Hayes. Cam's also making drafting decisions with Frederic and Beecher.

So what's Sweeney to blame for in the "who to blame" thread here? You glossed over that and assigned no blame to the guy whose job it is to build the team for today and for the future, other than he likes to scout and is "handcuffed"
 

ap3lovr

Registered User
Dec 31, 2005
6,219
1,291
New Brunswick
The only one to blame is father time. He comes for everyone including ice hockey teams. We chose a core of Chara, Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic, and Rask. They won a cup, but in order to keep that core together we had to pass on Seguin and Hamilton. We re-energized the core when it was showing problems with Chara, Bergeron, Marchand, Krejci, Pastrnak, Krug, and Rask. They tried for a cup and failed. Now we are again in a position where we have 1 last fading chance at glory with a portion of this group before father time wins. It is a natural cycle of a team.

The reason Toronto has been mediocre for so long is because they were never patient. They never let a team build the proper way. They finally are, and it is showing on the ice. We as fans need to stop fantasizing about winning the cup every year. Very few GMs can sustain success over a long period of time. I hate this idea that we need to fire everyone and start fresh every time the team misses the playoffs. I like this management group, they have shown they can put together a team that is in the hunt every few years. As a fan, I can't ask for more than that.
 
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rocketdan9

Registered User
Feb 5, 2009
20,411
13,210
This is going to be a long one, so bear with me (no B's pun intended).

I guess it's human nature to look to blame everything on one person/group, but I look at it a little differently.

I think Don Sweeney is a smart guy (hockey and otherwise), but I think he might be a better scout or Dir of Scouting than a GM? When he was AGM, I saw him scouting NCAA games and this really appeared to be his element? He has added to the scouting department every year he's been GM, and clearly understands the importance of drafting and development. This is ironic given that the 1st round of the 2015 draft has been a key component in the lack of talent beyond the Top 3. I don't have an answer for that, other than I believe the B's had no intention of making all three of those picks (which doesn't excuse the lack of preparation). I also believe that Sweeney may be handcuffed to an extent when it comes to "rebuilding" (more on that in the JJ section).

Like Dom, I was skeptical about Cassidy, but he has won me over for the most part. That said, I think he relies way too much on his 1st and 4th lines and isn't great about allowing chemistry to develop, except with those two units. One of the reasons this team has no secondary scoring is his insistence on keeping the first line together (the other is lack of cheap talent, which isn't Butch's fault). How many other teams in the league have their top three offensive options on one line? The answer is very few (if any) because nobody has the depth to do it, and that depth will worsen for everyone with expansion. In addition, I think his system of defensive responsibility leads to the team always being competitive, but I wonder if it hinders the F's a bit when it comes to generating offense/scoring.

I think Neely means well and wants the Bruins to do well, but I'm not sure he's the best guy to be running the team (ie the John Moore overreaction signing after the B's D got pushed around in the Tampa series)?? I don't know Cam Neely at all, but I think it's safe to say that he's a relatively smart guy who is extremely passionate about the game and believes there is a right and wrong way to play it. It's clear that he loves the game and the B's and basically sacrificed parts of his body to play said game. I admire all of that and it's why Cam is probably my favorite bruin all-time (Top 3 at the worst). However, none of this means that he's the best candidate to be the Prez or whatever his title is. I believe he has a tendency to overreact and has not adapted to the way the game is played now with physicality taking a back seat to speed and skill, which has resulted in FA signings like Beleskey and Backes, trades like Jimmy Hayes, and drafting players like Frederic (who I like) and Beecher over more skilled alternatives.

Next up, you have the players. I think for the most part, the B's have been blessed the last 10-15 years with some very good players and leaders in the room. They have won only one Cup over that time, but have had a lot of success, going to three SCF's and winning tons of games. That said, the players (and not Don Sweeney) were the ones at fault in 2019 for not winning the Cup. His moves (in part) got them to a Game 7 at home that they should have won. Sh** happens, and there are no guarantees, but lets not act like the players don't share a big chunk of the blame for losses like that and stretches like now, when they are not playing well.

I think JJ spends to the Cap every year, but I also tend to think it's all about the bottom line for him (as opposed to someone like Kraft, who was a fan before he was the owner). I have nothing to substantiate this, but I think JJ looks at the successes of the other teams in Boston, and I don't believe he has or will have the patience to rebuild this team properly, until it is forced upon him (which may be soon). Dom keeps saying that everything begins at the top. He may be directing this at Neely and Sweeney, but the tippity-top is really above them and the buck stops with JJ and his son presumably. Given Sweeney's apparent love of scouting and prospects, it is my belief that he probably would have preferred to build this roster a little differently, but was limited in his options. Again, while that sucks, it is not an excuse for lack of execution.

The point of this little exercise was to say that there are a number of people and factors at play when it comes to the success and/or failure of a team. Everyone bears some responsibility and everyone is at least partially to blame. So, while there are factions that want to lynch Sweeney and Neely, and some that want Cassidy fired, and some that want players traded, and some that want new ownership, none of them are completely right, or completely wrong.

Now you are saying to yourself, great Joe, then what should they do? Truth is, I don't know. They are in a tough spot with several of their key players aging out, and because of poor drafting and free agent signings they don't have a pipeline of talent at this moment to step in. I don't believe that any one change being proposed will fix the team. Personally, I think that the B's FO really needs to nail the draft, expansion and trades/FA signings now and in the offseason, otherwise this team is headed towards a stretch of bad/mediocre years and will need to be almost completely overhauled. I guess the difference between me and some fans is that I think that this is somewhat natural and incredibly hard to avoid (look at LA and CHI) with the way the league is set up (unless you have a generational talent like Crosby and even that's not a guarantee ie McJesus/EDM).

Bottom line is that I want the team to do well, and if that means firing Sweeney and Neely, or firing Cassidy, or trading players (even ones I like), or getting new ownership (unlikely) I am down for all of that...PROVIDED that there is some sort of plan, and better options than the people they get rid of.

I hope this wasn't too much of a waste of your time.

I thought you were going to state, trading your binkie Heinen was the #1 mistake

Otherwise I agree with your points

MANAGEMENT
Sweeney formula of drafting big forwards/centers and stay at home Ds = not enough skill in the lineup. And it is apparent

If Sweeney drafted Barzal and Debrincat alone, this lineup would be producing more goals. If they took Chabot instead of Zboril. Bruins PP would be better

Sweeney tendencies to draft big, strong, responsible players vs IQ and Skills at the bottom of the list .......... this is why the Bruins are one of the stingiest teams but also can't score goals

COACHING
Bruce Cassidy has a clue at the defensive end and mid ice. But has no clue after that. The offense (outside of the 1st and 2nd line at times) cycle around to nowhere. Ds from the point can't get puck through/lack creativity. Its just blind hockey and hoping for lucky goals most of the time

Watch what the TBL or Islanders do. They know where to dump it, guys know how to protect/hold the puck and IF the puck is sent to the point, player know how to setup to tip the puck or find the open shooters

One of Sweeney or Cassidy have to change/tweak their approach.
 

GloryDaze4877

Barely Irrelevant
Jun 27, 2006
44,395
13,873
The Sticks (West MA)
Appreciate the thought you put into this, and I know you and I both already know each others points haha.

This isn't a defense of Cam, I want him gone.

But this is a continuation of what I was talking about in the other thread. Everyone uses Cam as whatever they want him to be because no one is really sure of what is his and what isn't his.

Cam's the one responsible for the John Moore contract. Cam's responsible for Backes, Beleskey, Hayes. Cam's also making drafting decisions with Frederic and Beecher.

So what's Sweeney to blame for in the "who to blame" thread here? You glossed over that and assigned no blame to the guy whose job it is to build the team for today and for the future, other than he likes to scout and is "handcuffed"

When you see the types of players that Sweeney was reported to have been in on over the years, and the NCAA FA's he has gone after, would you say that big, lumbering guys are his preference? I mean it makes total sense that a guy who was an undersized dman that could skate would be all over those types, while the Prez, who was a large, physical guy who was not the greatest skater would care nothing for those types...lol.

Also, Neely explicitly and publicly called out a lack of size on the left side as a huge factor in TB manhandling them in that playoff series. Shortly after, the 6'2", 210 lb Moore was signed to a deal. Coincidence I'm sure.

As far as the Sweeney blame, it goes without saying he is responsible for the scouting (pro and amateur) and all operations. Any failure to execute in those areas falls on him ultimately. The "handcuffed" comment was more me trying to explain why a guy who is clearly a rink rat and interested in scouting/prospects would not build the team that way if given the opportunity. New GM or not, the 1st round misfire (as much as I hate to keep bringing it up) in 2015 is clearly on Sweeney, as are some of the reaches in the draft.

I am not trying to absolve Sweeney of his share of blame, which I pointed out several times. I suspect it's more that you know I like Sweeney and are looking to call me out on something? Lol
 

GloryDaze4877

Barely Irrelevant
Jun 27, 2006
44,395
13,873
The Sticks (West MA)
I thought you were going to state, trading your binkie Heinen was the #1 mistake

Otherwise I agree with your points

Lol, not quite.

In hindsight, I wish they had asked for Ritchie instead of Kase in that deal and never traded Heinen. I think he is a very good defensive player that plays a smart game and will chip in offensively. He would be a good fit in Boston's Bottom 6. That said, you don't pay him like the guy that scored 47 pts and then not utilize him in that type of role. His $2.8m salary is much too high for what his role here was.
 

member 96824

Guest
When you see the types of players that Sweeney was reported to have been in on over the years, and the NCAA FA's he has gone after, would you say that big, lumbering guys are his preference? I mean it makes total sense that a guy who was an undersized dman that could skate would be all over those types, while the Prez, who was a large, physical guy who was not the greatest skater would care nothing for those types...lol.

Also, Neely explicitly and publicly called out a lack of size on the left side as a huge factor in TB manhandling them in that playoff series. Shortly after, the 6'2", 210 lb Moore was signed to a deal. Coincidence I'm sure.

As far as the Sweeney blame, it goes without saying he is responsible for the scouting (pro and amateur) and all operations. Any failure to execute in those areas falls on him ultimately. The "handcuffed" comment was more me trying to explain why a guy who is clearly a rink rat and interested in scouting/prospects would not build the team that way if given the opportunity. New GM or not, the 1st round misfire (as much as I hate to keep bringing it up) in 2015 is clearly on Sweeney, as are some of the reaches in the draft.

I am not trying to absolve Sweeney of his share of blame, which I pointed out several times. I suspect it's more that you know I like Sweeney and are looking to call me out on something? Lol

Hah, no I swear it's not. I was just curious because the rest of the post was very prescriptive of blame(I blame X for Y), but the Sweeney section was vague. Appreciate the clarity.
 

MattFromFranklin

Fire Sweeney and Neely
Jun 19, 2012
4,138
3,072
Franklin, MA
I believe ownership deserves blame for some things as well. When Sweeney traded Hamilton he mentioned that he had to “accelerate” the return (2015 picks) as opposed to an offer sheet or other offers that would’ve happened that offseason. I firmly believe that ownership demanded that he get a return ASAP because the edict was to compete now. Now, that’s not to let Sweeney off the hook. He turned down higher firsts than Calgary’s and an offer sheet would’ve netted us Matthew Tkachuk the very next season. He botched that trade, but it didn’t help that ownership was pressuring him. I think ownership and Neely also drove the Beleskey and Hayes acquisitions. Beleskey was one of the “top” (ha!) Free Agents that summer, and we know how much Neely is obsessed with big bodies who throw checks and have limited offense.

At the 2016 deadline I believe he had to waste assets to give the Jacobs family playoff revenue. Eriksson should have been dealt for a first, but I think Jacobs would’ve prevented any move where they were selling.
 
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GloryDaze4877

Barely Irrelevant
Jun 27, 2006
44,395
13,873
The Sticks (West MA)
Hah, no I swear it's not. I was just curious because the rest of the post was very prescriptive of blame(I blame X for Y), but the Sweeney section was vague. Appreciate the clarity.

As others have said (more bluntly lol), as the GM, Sweeney ultimately bears responsibility for all the hockey Ops stuff, which is why GM's almost always go before the Prez or the owner.
 
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McGarnagle

Yes.
Aug 5, 2017
28,913
38,617
Largely Sweeney's fault.

There's no depth in the bottom 6, and there's a lack of 2nd line scoring talent. His missteps at the draft are catching up to us where the team could really use a Barzal or Connor right now and instead have Zach Senyshyn and a washed up Debrusk.
 

GloryDaze4877

Barely Irrelevant
Jun 27, 2006
44,395
13,873
The Sticks (West MA)
@GloryDaze4877 this might be your best writing article, it's excellent
I'm going to respond but I need a bit of time to organize my thoughts better, seeing today's practice lines ruined the progress I made this morning lol

Eric thank you.

Unfortunately, I am not writing for anyone right now, except myself. I would like to get a blog and/or podcast up, but just have not found the time.
 

bbfan419

Registered User
Jul 3, 2006
8,923
9,358
Moncton NB
Largely Sweeney's fault.

There's no depth in the bottom 6, and there's a lack of 2nd line scoring talent. His missteps at the draft are catching up to us where the team could really use a Barzal or Connor right now and instead have Zach Senyshyn and a washed up Debrusk.
Imagine drafting Barzal, Connor and Chabot round 1 and then Carlo, Aho and Lauzon round 2, this is a whole different looking team today.
 

Yeti34

Registered User
Apr 13, 2013
3,083
1,437
Tampa
There’s blame to be had all around.
GM- not addressing the need for a scoring winger. Signing the wrong guys. Drafting poorly
The Players- playing at a level below what they are capable
The Coach- mismanagement of players. Personnel decisions that are awful.
 

GloryDaze4877

Barely Irrelevant
Jun 27, 2006
44,395
13,873
The Sticks (West MA)
It seems like most teams that can execute on that, do. Not all, but some even go out of their way to play guys off their natural position to do so.

Let's look at some examples of most common linemates from Dobber this year and last from high scoring lines.

Stamkos-Point-Kucherov (when all three have been healthy, this has been the most common combo)
Giroux-Couturier-Voracek
Landeskog-MacKinnon-Rantanen
Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak
Connor-Schiefele-Laine
Teravainen-Aho-Svechnikov
Miller-Petterson-Boeser
Huberdeau-Barkov-Dadonov

Are there examples where the 3 best go LW, C, RW and they don't play together? Are they having success?

It seems like in the NHL right now, the only time that doesn't happen is if you can't make it happen because your two best players are centers (See: Drais, McDavid) or your top 4 all play the same position (Matthews-Marner, Tavares-Nylander). I'm not really finding anything substantial otherwise

Brad, I'm not ignoring this, I am just doing "real" work at the same time (lol) and have to research this. I can tell you that my primary reasoning for this was that I have always felt that spreading out the talent (and the scoring) is harder to defend than the "one line" approach. I look at PIT and the way they have had sustained success by splitting up Sid and Geno, putting them with good (not great) players and creating three lines that could score was the way to go. Of course, not every team has two talents like that to elevate the play of players around them.
 

Montecristo

Registered User
Jul 29, 2012
6,921
2,146
This team has more offensive talent than it is showing. I blame senior leadership. Krejci, marchand, bergeron, coyle, rask, carlo.

they need to hold the team and themselves accountable.

i also blame sweeney. While he hasnt torpedoed this team like chiarelli did he basically has treaded water with the lineup he was given 6 years ago and has not made it markedly better or worse for the most part. The farm system is basically non existent and all that has been accomplished is that time has aged his players to the point where a step back is bound to be soon. I once made a statement that i felt sweeney was not well liked among gms and his lack of relationship building had led to some pretty underwhelming trades and also a general lack of trades with more than a couple teams. I had nothing to base this claim on. I just saw this harvard guy who picks these off the board players in the draft and felt that he must think hes smarter than everyone. Anytime i meet someone like that, i generally dont like them. So i assumed his gm peers also felt that way.

i also blame neely. He hired sweeney, end of reason.

i like cassidy too much to blame him.

and i dont blame jacobs because who cares what their reasoning is? They spend to the cap. What else can an owner do. I guess i blame them for hiring neely who in turn hired sweeney. Thats it
 

GloryDaze4877

Barely Irrelevant
Jun 27, 2006
44,395
13,873
The Sticks (West MA)
This team has more offensive talent than it is showing. I blame senior leadership. Krejci, marchand, bergeron, coyle, rask, carlo.

they need to hold the team and themselves accountable.

i also blame sweeney. While he hasnt torpedoed this team like chiarelli did he basically has treaded water with the lineup he was given 6 years ago and has not made it markedly better or worse for the most part. The farm system is basically non existent and all that has been accomplished is that time has aged his players to the point where a step back is bound to be soon. I once made a statement that i felt sweeney was not well liked among gms and his lack of relationship building had led to some pretty underwhelming trades and also a general lack of trades with more than a couple teams. I had nothing to base this claim on. I just saw this harvard guy who picks these off the board players in the draft and felt that he must think hes smarter than everyone. Anytime i meet someone like that, i generally dont like them. So i assumed his gm peers also felt that way.

i also blame neely. He hired sweeney, end of reason.

i like cassidy too much to blame him.

and i dont blame jacobs because who cares what their reasoning is? They spend to the cap. What else can an owner do. I guess i blame them for hiring neely who in turn hired sweeney. Thats it

So, pretty much everyone BUT Cassidy.

I think everyone is culpable, including Butch and Jacobs. Can you picture Sweeney or Neely pitching to JJ that the team might have to take a step back and endure a couple of bad seasons to turn it around the right way, and him agreeing to that?

I can't.
 

smack66

Registered User
Mar 5, 2008
5,035
3,676
ontario
Black/White (no grey), cut and dried.

It would be nice if life was this simple :laugh:
that's how I see it. at the end of the day it's the GMs responsibility to get the best available players and in my opinion he has failed. he really hasnt brought any elite talent to the team beside McAvoy.
 
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Montecristo

Registered User
Jul 29, 2012
6,921
2,146
So, pretty much everyone BUT Cassidy.

I think everyone is culpable, including Butch and Jacobs. Can you picture Sweeney or Neely pitching to JJ that the team might have to take a step back and endure a couple of bad seasons to turn it around the right way, and him agreeing to that?

I can't.

me either but while that might be a reason why jacobs is at fault ulitmately if im jacobs if sweeney and neely come to me and tell me that they are both fired on the spot as it never should have come to a spot where a step back was needed. So in a way knowing that there is no way neely or sweeney ever ask. Because they know theyll be canned. Probably leads to a toxic leadership team but accountability and results sit at the top of the pyramid. So the lack of trust by sweeney and neely towards their own job security is likely warranted when they haven't performed. And a leadership team without trust and who is afraid of conflict because of a lack of results and too much pride to be accountable for failure is bound to fail. And most of that failure falls on management, not ownership. I dont blame cassidy because i like him too much and hes good with the media and says what everyone is thinking but still are shocked that he says it. Which is the truth. Hes coaching a team that isnt very good and was handed a roster that was a downgrade from the year prior.
 

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