The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 6)

[Whitesnake]

I guess Sidney Crosby is the most extremist of all extremists..

You mean crybaby Crosby? You mean the guy who keeps being ridiculized in this board for how "extreme" his reactions could be? Why would he be exempt of having an extreme opinion that might not be right? So great, that's his opinion. Like tons of other players had the same or different opinion. Is Shea Weber's opinion less important? He went with Lundqvist. Eric Staal went with Rinne. Toews with Luongo. But I guess it doesn't count as the best player in the league is always right and has THE opinion.

I guess CP's three all star games appearance are pure garbage too.. Not to mention his gold medal at the world junior championship and the fact he was named best player of the series when the Dogs won the Calder cup with an average team..

Of course, that's exactly what I said. Oh wait...no. What I did say is that ALL this, plus, and I'll help you, he was also named CHL goalie of the year once, and you add the trades we made to make for room, all this that I already named at least 5 times, were reasons that expectations were so high with him. That he had an insane pre-Pro career, then you add what he did with the Dogs and it was an incredible achievement.....Yet, that incredible run with the Dogs, being able to, like you said, win everything with an average team....he didn't do it yet in the NHL. I guess that's a little more difficult which in the end then prooves that the NHL is a total different ballgame. But you don't lack hockey knowledge, so you know that already.

You spend too much time scrutinizing CP's game when you would have so much more to say about your personal top 5 goaltenders in the league if you spent as much time on their back as you do on CP's one.. You should start with your clear cut no.1 Lunqvist or the last Vezina winner that let 2 softies in last game, especially the game winner goal, and dont tell me it wasnt an average shot lol.. thats a pretty good start, you would have so much fun and maybe, after having watched them play a bit more, it would change your mind a bit too..

Well strangely enough, players that are playing for our team, are a little more scrutinized than the other players. Strange, but that's how it is. Yet, I do have TV's, do have internet, go often see tons of hockey live from all levels and funnily enough watch a lot of hockey. Doesn't mean I'm always right, far from it, but it should mean that I'm familiar with what's going on around the league. So yes, every goalie struggles, from the best to the worst. Not sure why you are bringing Bobrovsky in the mix, pretty sure I didn't name him ahead of Price as one of my favorite. As far as Lundqvist is concerned, well I think that while you are naming me all those great things Price did prior to the NHL and can only add his all-star games, I can say that my favorite in Lundqvist, had: 1 Vezina, 1 NHL first all-star team, 3 all-star games, 6 Vezina nominations, 1 Hart trophy nomination, 1 Ted Lindsay nomination (voted by the NHLPA). Lundqvist isn't perfect, nobody is. But I think he did more to be ahead of Price. Still waiting for some incredible playoffs like Quick showed. Best playoff performance only a 3rd round....but that's 2 more rounds than Pricey. And he finished with an incredible .931 Sv%. But then it was all because of the Rangers defense and so on. Lundqvist had a .929 Sv% during the season but again it was all because of that incredible defense, I mean, you could have put anybody in net and he would have done the same thing, anybody, let say Biron...and he would have put a......903 SV%....anyway, doesn't matter....

Oh and BTW, not reconizing how much the loss of Emelin hurt that team last year is either unfair or a serious lack of hockey knowledge...

Oh and BTW....is it what I said? Didn't I say "I know that the end of the year made Price numbers plunged?" Yet.....is it ONLY Emelin? Or is it clinching a playoff spot? Is Therrien unfair or have a serious lack of hockey knowledge for saying what he said at the end of the year? Yes....Emelin was a factor based on Emelin himself and our lack of depth. But it wasn't only that. As Price had 6 games below .900Sv% without Emelin but had 12 games of below .900 Sv% WITH Emelin.

By the way, I would say that having a serious lack of hockey knowledge would actually do exactly what you're suggesting I do. That I should look NOW at Lundqvist to see that he's finally not that good of a goalie because he has his struggles. Hey Quick is not that good either....only .910. But Josh Harding will be a Vezina nominee, he does have .946 Sv%....Probably with Bernier and Bishop who have better Sv% than Price...And Fleury a little behind, yet great numbers....is he sieve or is he not a sieve? Anyway, THAT would demonstrate a serious lack of hockey knowledge.

Price, right now, is in his zone and playing tremendously well. Somehow though it has to mean that the bad moments he had in the past wasn't that bad because of how good he is playing now? Not sure what's serious lack of that is.....But my incredible scrutiny of his game makes me think that with Waite, he's clearly in a great shape to finally play up to his potential. Bergevin do need to work and surround him better with a much better overall team but mostly on D.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes including ALL of those...which we don't know how many there are. Which we don't know how much are they having in their head "potential" when they are racking up goalies. I'd, again, so much would like to see ALL of those rankings.....Keep looking for it...don't find a whole lot of them.

He's top five all the time dude... give it up. Even if I just limit it to NHL.com, TSN and THN... and I didn't dig hard into this either. I recall other polls from players and coaches ranking him there but I don't feel like Googling myself to death tonight. If somebody wants to take up the challenge that's cool.

There were a bunch of polls from coaches and players in the spring that had him there. There are threads here somewhere and you can go find them if you wish, I just can't be bothered. It was recent enough that everyone should remember him being on it.

Full disclosure, I don't remember the full details on these but they're out there with separate polls GMs and coaches on one and players on another with another poll saying Price was deserving of the Vezina in the East (and that poll was actually taken one day after the Toronto fiasco.)

Fall 2013: NHL coaches & GMs name Price top five
Fall 2013: Crosby names Price the best
Spring 2013: Players ranked him top five
Spring 2013: Coaches say he’s the best in the East (Vezina candidate)

If we limit it to NHL.com or THN:
March 2013, NHL.com:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=662735

2012:
THN: Price top 5
http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2012/09/21/habs-price-ranked-as-no-5-goalie-in-nhl-by-thn/

TSN: Unknown. Only three goalies make the top 50. Price is not among them.

2011:
TSN: Price top five:
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=49958
THN: Price is number 6
http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2011/09/22/thn-ranks-price-as-sixth-best-goalie-in-nhl/


You don't think he's top five. Okay, no problem we can disagree. But you're wrong to say there's no basis for it when he has been consistently ranked there since 2011. Even after his late season blowup he's still ranked there by his peers and number one by the best player in the league.

That has SOME credibility doesn't it? Saying he's top five is not an extreme position - it is the consensus of his peers and hockey analysts, its been that way for a while now and it's been reinforced again in the most recent rankings.

There is NO debate here... that's where he's been ranked by his peers and the most credible sites we can appeal to. You can disagree with the ranking but don't sit there like he hasn't been ranked there and there's no basis for putting him there. Please don't tell us this again and waste our time debating something that's fact. THAT'S where he's been ranked over and over... feel free to disagree but don't distort the facts.

 

[NewHabsEra*]

You mean crybaby Crosby? You mean the guy who keeps being ridiculized in this board for how "extreme" his reactions could be? Why would he be exempt of having an extreme opinion that might not be right? So great, that's his opinion. Like tons of other players had the same or different opinion. Is Shea Weber's opinion less important? He went with Lundqvist. Eric Staal went with Rinne. Toews with Luongo. But I guess it doesn't count as the best player in the league is always right and has THE opinion.



Of course, that's exactly what I said. Oh wait...no. What I did say is that ALL this, plus, and I'll help you, he was also named CHL goalie of the year once, and you add the trades we made to make for room, all this that I already named at least 5 times, were reasons that expectations were so high with him. That he had an insane pre-Pro career, then you add what he did with the Dogs and it was an incredible achievement.....Yet, that incredible run with the Dogs, being able to, like you said, win everything with an average team....he didn't do it yet in the NHL. I guess that's a little more difficult which in the end then prooves that the NHL is a total different ballgame. But you don't lack hockey knowledge, so you know that already.



Well strangely enough, players that are playing for our team, are a little more scrutinized than the other players. Strange, but that's how it is. Yet, I do have TV's, do have internet, go often see tons of hockey live from all levels and funnily enough watch a lot of hockey. Doesn't mean I'm always right, far from it, but it should mean that I'm familiar with what's going on around the league. So yes, every goalie struggles, from the best to the worst. Not sure why you are bringing Bobrovsky in the mix, pretty sure I didn't name him ahead of Price as one of my favorite. As far as Lundqvist is concerned, well I think that while you are naming me all those great things Price did prior to the NHL and can only add his all-star games, I can say that my favorite in Lundqvist, had: 1 Vezina, 1 NHL first all-star team, 3 all-star games, 6 Vezina nominations, 1 Hart trophy nomination, 1 Ted Lindsay nomination (voted by the NHLPA). Lundqvist isn't perfect, nobody is. But I think he did more to be ahead of Price. Still waiting for some incredible playoffs like Quick showed. Best playoff performance only a 3rd round....but that's 2 more rounds than Pricey. And he finished with an incredible .931 Sv%. But then it was all because of the Rangers defense and so on. Lundqvist had a .929 Sv% during the season but again it was all because of that incredible defense, I mean, you could have put anybody in net and he would have done the same thing, anybody, let say Biron...and he would have put a......903 SV%....anyway, doesn't matter....



Oh and BTW....is it what I said? Didn't I say "I know that the end of the year made Price numbers plunged?" Yet.....is it ONLY Emelin? Or is it clinching a playoff spot? Is Therrien unfair or have a serious lack of hockey knowledge for saying what he said at the end of the year? Yes....Emelin was a factor based on Emelin himself and our lack of depth. But it wasn't only that. As Price had 6 games below .900Sv% without Emelin but had 12 games of below .900 Sv% WITH Emelin.

By the way, I would say that having a serious lack of hockey knowledge would actually do exactly what you're suggesting I do. That I should look NOW at Lundqvist to see that he's finally not that good of a goalie because he has his struggles. Hey Quick is not that good either....only .910. But Josh Harding will be a Vezina nominee, he does have .946 Sv%....Probably with Bernier and Bishop who have better Sv% than Price...And Fleury a little behind, yet great numbers....is he sieve or is he not a sieve? Anyway, THAT would demonstrate a serious lack of hockey knowledge.

Price, right now, is in his zone and playing tremendously well. Somehow though it has to mean that the bad moments he had in the past wasn't that bad because of how good he is playing now? Not sure what's serious lack of that is.....But my incredible scrutiny of his game makes me think that with Waite, he's clearly in a great shape to finally play up to his potential. Bergevin do need to work and surround him better with a much better overall team but mostly on D.

Where did I say Lunqvist wasnt an elite goaltender anymore and that Biron could do about the same job as he did? Lunqvist is an elite goaltender that is mostly struggling cause of the actual lack of structure in front of him and no goaltender in this league is at the shelter of this, not even Brodeur who said 2-3 years ago when he and the Devils were struggling that "you are as good as the team playing in front of you"... A sentence that isnt entirely true but still pretty realist and representative of what happens when the structure in front of you is flawed.. While Lunqvist is an elite goaltender, we see what happens right now when the load of work he has to deal with is simply too much and unfair, quality scoring chances coming one after the other from about everywhere, there is no way you can make a difference by your own in those circumstances as skilled and good as you are.. You can limit the damages and find a way to keep your team in the games, but when you are being outplayed bad, 95% of the times you lose.. That being said, technically Price has absolutely nothing to envy to Lunqvist or any other "elite" goaltenders in the league, actually thats quite the opposite, he is an "heavy weight" moving like a lightweight, he is tall and extremmely quick in his net, faster than Lunqvist or Luongo for exemple, he is calm, poised and has everything to become a top 3 in this league.. He is making an average team look like a good team right now, imagine if we had a good team, he actually would make us look like a contender and no one would complain about his "average" stats anymore.. Too bad we signed Briere and couldnt add another solid foward last summer cause with that foward and Emelin back, this team would suddenly become pretty interesting.. But Briere, come on, why oh why?? It could have been Mason Raymond at the limit, at least the guy has some speed and hands, but Briere, a 4M finished midget slow as hell, what did MB think????

 

[Whitesnake]

There is NO debate here... that's where he's been ranked by his peers and the most credible sites we can appeal to. You can disagree with the ranking but don't sit there like he hasn't been ranked there and there's no basis for putting him there. Please don't tell us this again and waste our time debating something that's fact. THAT'S where he's been ranked over and over... feel free to disagree but don't distort the facts.

So there are lists. Good find. Lists that go from one extreme to another. And take into consideration what? Actual results or potential? On one list, the statement was that he had 1 great year last year and there's no reasons to think he won't have another the year after. So okay, of course, for that season he had a .923 Sv%, he was top 5. But being top 5, for me, means the best possible combination of longetivity, consistency and playoffs result. Price beigins to have that longetivity part. Around the league for quite some time now compared to a lot of present goalies. Don't think consistency has been established yet. Nor are playoff results. Funny part is that everytime there's a list, we keep destroying saying how awful it is. But when it's positive about our players.....it's suddenly legit. Fine. Great list in 2013 to see Fleury ahead of Luongo, Rask and Crawford and Howard. That's funny. Hey Craig Anderson is a top 5 goalie too. 6 out of 10 have Price top 5, 4 don't have him there. But I guess you are right....there's NO debate. People do need to go beyond sometimes and see that if you take that NHL list, which is the 2013, pretty sure that's the year we are in right now, and that's the debate WE're having.....Lundqvist, Quick and Rinne are pretty much in everybody's top 3....after that....THERE's the debate. You then go back at one of your 2012 example and you see Martin Brodeur being top 5.....Pretty sure that the debate we're having NOW...nobody is considering Brodeur as top 20.

Anyway, there are tons of lists out there. He is in some, he isn't in others. HENCE the debate. I have him top 10 until he has a great season, and hoping for a 2nd round. If so, chances are he's up there. But we also have to consider the other goalies as he's not the only one goaltending in this league. From the most obvious opponents that Carey has, Lundqvist, Rask, Rinne, Quick, Crawford, Luongo, real soon we "might" have to consider Lehtonen (who, based on the "defensive" aspect of the teams he's been in, as to be considered), Varlamov, Bishop, Hiller, Niemi, Anderson, Howard, Schneider......Halak. Guess what though....if Rinne keeps falling apart, injury related or not, he will fall off the top 5 himself as well. Top 5 list isn't immovable. It changes. At one point, Price did look like an easy top 5 for me. But I didn't like his consistency making him fall from it.

I choose to believe that an overall top 5 goalie for that long had to go through 3 goalie coaches 'cause he had to get fixed in some ways. Most goalie experts, guys who gives goalies lessons, guys like Allaire who has seen some goalies cross his path, ex-habs goalie coach in Melanson (hoping there was more an analysis than some bitterness) saw things to work on that you cannot think that a top 5 goalie should still be working on. They ALL think he has the potential to be though. So do I.

And for whoever keep wanting to point out to everybody else but Price as far as his things to work on, Price needs to take some responsability for it. Every guy who follows the Habs would say that his work ethic wasn't great. And you don't need the RDS guys for that....go back to probably the smoothest journalists around in Dany Dubé who will tell you the same thing. Seems that it changed this year with Waite. Strangely, already doing much better. With probably his head more in order too. THAT to me is a sign of a future top 5 on top of all the natural talent he has.

 

[Whitesnake]

Where did I say Lunqvist wasnt an elite goaltender anymore and that Biron could do about the same job as he did? Lunqvist is an elite goaltender that is mostly struggling cause of the actual lack of structure in front of him and no goaltender in this league is at the shelter of this, not even Brodeur who said 2-3 years ago when he and the Devils were struggling that "you are as good as the team playing in front of you"... A sentence that isnt entirely true but still pretty realist and representative of what happens when the structure in front of you is flawed.. While Lunqvist is an elite goaltender, we see what happens right now when the load of work he has to deal with is simply too much and unfair, quality scoring chances coming one after the other from about everywhere, there is no way you can make a difference by your own in those circumstances as skilled and good as you are.. You can limit the damages and find a way to keep your team in the games, but when you are being outplayed bad, 95% of the times you lose.. That being said, technically Price has absolutely nothing to envy to Lunqvist or any other "elite" goaltenders in the league, actually thats quite the opposite, he is an "heavy weight" moving like a lightweight, he is tall and extremmely quick in his net, faster than Lunqvist or Luongo for exemple, he is calm, poised and has everything to become a top 3 in this league.. He is making an average team look like a good team right now, imagine if we had a good team, he actually would make us look like a contender and no one would complain about his "average" stats anymore.

Point is, with a supposed incredibly superior defensive unit, Lundqvist has had much superior numbers than Biron did. With the same unit. What Lafleur Guy continuously tried to prove with this 1 example of Elliott and Halak isn't ALWAYS the case.

I have confidence in Price with the new goalie coach he has. I kept saying that I prefered by far to have Bergevin improve the team to help Price than to see Price improving, even if it's obviously important. Yes, you do need a combination of everything, that a goalie alone will rarely do it. But you should still be able to know a goalie's worth no matter how great your defense is.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

The issue isn't Price's play during the regular season (at least not with me). It's his play in the playoffs. Price always starts strong. Hopefully his play thus far will continue into the playoffs. IMO that's where goalies earn their money.

 

[Whitesnake]

The issue isn't Price's play during the regular season (at least not with me). It's his play in the playoffs. Price always starts strong. Hopefully his play thus far will continue into the playoffs. IMO that's where goalies earn their money.

He will indeed have to prove that. If he does well this year with a relatively good Save%, unless injuries comes our way...he will have the same team in the playoffs too. This is exactly where stories are written.

 

[BLONG7]

Lots of banter about Price, and we have all seen the highs and lows of his performance...One thing that seems to go unnoticed....

HE HAS THE TOUGHEST JOB IN HOCKEY...playing goal for the Habs...no other goalie has the pressure or the scrutiny, and this thread proves it!!

Be glad he's ours guys, he's a good goalie, and will get us a Cup!!

 

[Whitesnake]

Lots of banter about Price, and we have all seen the highs and lows of his performance...One thing that seems to go unnoticed....

HE HAS THE TOUGHEST JOB IN HOCKEY...playing goal for the Habs...no other goalie has the pressure or the scrutiny, and this thread proves it!!

Be glad he's ours guys, he's a good goalie, and will get us a Cup!!

Tough job for sure. Yet....he has mostly got the recognition by the fans than the hate. Was mocked seriously once so far at the Bell Centre and booed sometimes but he also got tons of ovations and encouragements. He's anglophone so doesn't talk a whole lot to the medias. So out of one of the toughest job in hockey because of the scrutiny, he's still is able to do his thing. Can't go to the grocery....but then, nobody can't.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So there are lists. Good find. Lists that go from one extreme to another. And take into consideration what? Actual results or potential? On one list, the statement was that he had 1 great year last year and there's no reasons to think he won't have another the year after. So okay, of course, for that season he had a .923 Sv%, he was top 5. But being top 5, for me, means the best possible combination of longetivity, consistency and playoffs result. Price beigins to have that longetivity part. Around the league for quite some time now compared to a lot of present goalies. Don't think consistency has been established yet. Nor are playoff results. Funny part is that everytime there's a list, we keep destroying saying how awful it is. But when it's positive about our players.....it's suddenly legit. Fine. Great list in 2013 to see Fleury ahead of Luongo, Rask and Crawford and Howard. That's funny. Hey Craig Anderson is a top 5 goalie too. 6 out of 10 have Price top 5, 4 don't have him there. But I guess you are right....there's NO debate. People do need to go beyond sometimes and see that if you take that NHL list, which is the 2013, pretty sure that's the year we are in right now, and that's the debate WE're having.....Lundqvist, Quick and Rinne are pretty much in everybody's top 3....after that....THERE's the debate. You then go back at one of your 2012 example and you see Martin Brodeur being top 5.....Pretty sure that the debate we're having NOW...nobody is considering Brodeur as top 20.

Anyway, there are tons of lists out there. He is in some, he isn't in others. HENCE the debate. I have him top 10 until he has a great season, and hoping for a 2nd round. If so, chances are he's up there. But we also have to consider the other goalies as he's not the only one goaltending in this league. From the most obvious opponents that Carey has, Lundqvist, Rask, Rinne, Quick, Crawford, Luongo, real soon we "might" have to consider Lehtonen (who, based on the "defensive" aspect of the teams he's been in, as to be considered), Varlamov, Bishop, Hiller, Niemi, Anderson, Howard, Schneider......Halak. Guess what though....if Rinne keeps falling apart, injury related or not, he will fall off the top 5 himself as well. Top 5 list isn't immovable. It changes. At one point, Price did look like an easy top 5 for me. But I didn't like his consistency making him fall from it.

I choose to believe that an overall top 5 goalie for that long had to go through 3 goalie coaches 'cause he had to get fixed in some ways. Most goalie experts, guys who gives goalies lessons, guys like Allaire who has seen some goalies cross his path, ex-habs goalie coach in Melanson (hoping there was more an analysis than some bitterness) saw things to work on that you cannot think that a top 5 goalie should still be working on. They ALL think he has the potential to be though. So do I.

And for whoever keep wanting to point out to everybody else but Price as far as his things to work on, Price needs to take some responsability for it. Every guy who follows the Habs would say that his work ethic wasn't great. And you don't need the RDS guys for that....go back to probably the smoothest journalists around in Dany Dubé who will tell you the same thing. Seems that it changed this year with Waite. Strangely, already doing much better. With probably his head more in order too. THAT to me is a sign of a future top 5 on top of all the natural talent he has.

Like I said, just because he's in a list (pretty much every list I looked up) you don't have to have him there yourself. We all have our own opinions.

The problem as I see it is when somebody comes in and says that it's an extreme position or that he has no business being called a top five goalie.

The overwhelming consensus of:

The GMs
The Coaches
The Best Player in the World
The Players
The Most credible analysts we have (THN, TSN, NHL.com)

Is that he's considered a top five goalie and has been considered this for the past few years. THAT's the consensus of the most credible people we have.

You are (of course) free to disagree. But these are the most credible lists we have and there is one where he's number six (in 2011) and another where it's inconclusive. Every other list has him top five. You guys are the ones swimming against consensus, not us.

I think it's important to make this distinction and at the very least get you guys to understand this. I thought you'd already agreed to this so it was surprising to see it come up again. That's the consensus for the past three years and right now. Subject to change of course (rankings always are) but let's not pretend like there's no reason not to think of him as a top five goalie because there very clearly is.

The burden of proof is on you guys, not us.

So point to the numbers, point to the slumps... I'll point to the teams he's been on and the overwhelming consensus of his peers and the analysts. And we can go round and round forever.

Or, we can just move on from this top five discussion - as I thought we had long ago.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The issue isn't Price's play during the regular season (at least not with me). It's his play in the playoffs. Price always starts strong. Hopefully his play thus far will continue into the playoffs. IMO that's where goalies earn their money.

If we want success in the playoffs we should build a team for the playoffs. We don't do this and that's why we don't succeed.

If we don't pass round one (I don't expect we will) I won't blame Price. Just like I won't blame Subban. We need to build a team that's playoff ready. Until we do this, get used to disappointment.




Flip this argument on it's ear. Pretend you're debating a Hawks fan...

"Keith is better than Subban because he's won some cups. He's proven that he can win the big game and Subban hasn't. If Subban were better the Canadiens would have done better in the playoffs but he just can't seem to raise his game enough."

That's basically what you're doing with Price. Putting the blame for us not advancing on one guy. In 2011 our goalie was awesome and in 2013 was knocked out early. You can point to his earlier years but I don't think it's relevant at this point.

You want a team that can advance? Get bigger forwards. Screen the opposing goalie. Clear the crease.

We'll have much better results.

 

[Compile]

I don't have the replay in front of me, but it looked like it deflected off the defenders skate first. I could be wrong but that's what it looked like to me.

It was actually one hell of a shot. Before completing it, Pleks rolled his wrist (in mid shot) to change the direction. That is incredibly hard to do when you are about to release the puck.

Don't know if he intended to or not but there was no deflection.

 

[Whitesnake]

If we want success in the playoffs we should build a team for the playoffs. We don't do this and that's why we don't succeed.

Problem is that other teams had ordinairy teams and incredible goalie performances made it possible to go further. Halak in Montreal, Ward in Carolina in their Cup run, Quick made a name out of himself based on the playoffs etc. Problem is that strangely, when a team is at the top, people say that the teams are great and that's why the goalie has some success, just forgetting that the goalie is a big part of the success too. I keep hearing that no matter who you put in net, team would win. True with Hawks....strangely enough, not that true with Kings as Bernier was much better statswise than Quick in the regular season. Boston won their Cup, Thomas with .938, Rask with .918., Roloson was better than Smith in 10-11 etc....Unfortunately, our last 2 cups was also a tremendous display of a goalie stealing most of the games. So while we do agree that we have to improve much more than that and so on...it's not like we are the Oilers or anything. We had players in place so that we could have done more than 1 3rd round in the last oh so many years. And I guess that for a goalie to be called top goalie of the league, we are expecting that he'd take a good team....and makes it great.

 

[Whitesnake]

The problem as I see it is when somebody comes in and says that it's an extreme position or that he has no business being called a top five goalie.

Well I called "extreme" the position that Crosby took. Why? 'Cause he's the ONLY one out of your lists to have called him the best of them all. That's just as extreme as people having him #20 as nobody have him there as well. And I'm pretty sure that nowhere did I say that nobody has any business putting him top 5. I love when people who keeps asking to respect the facts distort other facts in the same breath.....Your poins is that there's NO debate. My point is that there is. So for me to say that there's one debate.....it has to mean that I'm accepting people who puts him there. While by saying there's NO debate....you actually doesn't respect people who have him out of there. You bring me some "experts", I'll bring you others and so on and again....hence the debate.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Well I called "extreme" the position that Crosby took. Why? 'Cause he's the ONLY one out of your lists to have called him the best of them all. That's just as extreme as people having him #20 as nobody have him there as well. And I'm pretty sure that nowhere did I say that nobody has any business putting him top 5. I love when people who keeps asking to respect the facts distort other facts in the same breath.....Your poins is that there's NO debate. My point is that there is. So for me to say that there's one debate.....it has to mean that I'm accepting people who puts him there. While by saying there's NO debate....you actually doesn't respect people who have him out of there. You bring me some "experts", I'll bring you others and so on and again....hence the debate.

There is no debate that this is the consensus of analysts and his peers. That's where they see him. This has been shown over and over.

There is debate as to whether or not you agree with the consensus. I have no problem with this. And I don't think this is beyond debate dude.

Just don't sit there and tell us that this isn't the consensus of these people because it very clearly is.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Problem is that other teams had ordinairy teams and incredible goalie performances made it possible to go further. Halak in Montreal, Ward in Carolina in their Cup run, Quick made a name out of himself based on the playoffs etc. Problem is that strangely, when a team is at the top, people say that the teams are great and that's why the goalie has some success, just forgetting that the goalie is a big part of the success too. I keep hearing that no matter who you put in net, team would win. True with Hawks....strangely enough, not that true with Kings as Bernier was much better statswise than Quick in the regular season. Boston won their Cup, Thomas with .938, Rask with .918., Roloson was better than Smith in 10-11 etc....Unfortunately, our last 2 cups was also a tremendous display of a goalie stealing most of the games. So while we do agree that we have to improve much more than that and so on...it's not like we are the Oilers or anything. We had players in place so that we could have done more than 1 3rd round in the last oh so many years. And I guess that for a goalie to be called top goalie of the league, we are expecting that he'd take a good team....and makes it great.

Take everything before 2011 (when Price really became the starter) and throw it in the trash.

We've been to the playoffs twice.


In 2011 we shouldn't have even been in the playoffs but Price got us there. Once he was as good as could be.

Last year he was knocked out in the third period of a tie game with the Sens up 2-1 in the series.

There's not a whole lot to go on here dude. But I don't see how he warrants the skepticism you're throwing at him.


Yes Halak was great a few years ago, yes we've seen goalies steal series. But it's so early in Price's career, the guy is only even entering his prime now. And I'm sorry but I don't think we'll advance this season either no matter how good he plays. We just aren't built for the postseason.

Again, do we extend this to Subban too? If we lose in the first round again do we say that Subban isn't good enough to get us past it? Why can Keith do it but not Subban?

 

[Whitesnake]

There is no debate that this is the consensus of analysts and his peers. That's where they see him. This has been shown over and over.

There is debate as to whether or not you agree with the consensus. I have no problem with this. And I don't think this is beyond debate dude.

Just don't sit there and tell us that this isn't the consensus of these people because it very clearly is.

Not sure why you try to prove that I'm the only one who thinks he isn't top 5 worthy as it's ALSO been proven that he's not on everybody's top 5 list either. OF COURSE, it is a consensus amongst people who agree with you....as I said, that would be like me going with only the guys who don't see him top 5 and say "Well there's a consensus of people who thinks he's not worthy and so on..." The consensus is that some see it there, some don't. You keep naming "Coaches, players (out of the great survey you love about Crosby naming Price, all the other guys don't name him....Should I be unfair enough as to think that he's a favorite for 1 out of 10 players, so on a larger scale of 800 players it means 80 only, so where's the consensus? Of course I won't do that), GM's and whatever" as if EVERYBODY puts him there which they aren't. Hence the debate once again. You seem to be the one who has so much problems accepting the fact that he isn't up there for everybody. I recognize the ones who do. Yet, you don't recognize the ones who don't and try to put him under the "Well it's YOUR opinion". No. Not only mine. You want to move on from this? I'm ready. Are you?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Not sure why you try to prove that I'm the only one who thinks he isn't top 5 worthy

I'm not saying this at all...

as it's ALSO been proven that he's not on everybody's top 5 list either. OF COURSE, it is a consensus amongst people who agree with you....

I only bothered looking up TSN and THN... in my travels I saw some on NHL.com that's ALL that I looked at man and he's on all their lists. He's also on the lists of the GMs, coaches, players... I didn't cherrypick people who would agree with me.

I'm sure there are some blogs who wouldn't agree, individuals who wouldn't agree. I'm not saying it's unanimous. But it is heavy consensus.

Do we really have to debate this?

He's a consensus top five netminder. Accept it and move on.

as I said, that would be like me going with only the guys who don't see him top 5 and say "Well there's a consensus of people who thinks he's not worthy and so on..." The consensus is that some see it there, some don't. You keep naming "Coaches, players (out of the great survey you love about Crosby naming Price, all the other guys don't name him....Should I be unfair enough as to think that he's a favorite for 1 out of 10 players, so on a larger scale of 800 players it means 80 only, so where's the consensus? Of course I won't do that), GM's and whatever" as if EVERYBODY puts him there which they aren't. Hence the debate once again. You seem to be the one who has so much problems accepting the fact that he isn't up there for everybody. I recognize the ones who do. Yet, you don't recognize the ones who don't and try to put him under the "Well it's YOUR opinion". No. Not only mine. You want to move on from this? I'm ready. Are you?

Okay, YOU go and find other sources that don't have him top five.

Obviously TSN, THN, GMs, Coaches, Players, NHL.com will disagree with you. So what are you going to come back with? Individual blogs? Agnostic's posts? I mean come on dude... Like I said, consensus does not mean unanimity. You could point to say... Jack Todd (a journalist) and I'm sure he'd agree with you.

These weren't cherrypicked by me. I went to the most obvious sites and you've seen the results. By consensus that's where he is. Why do you have to argue against this? That's where the most credible analysts and players and coaches (as a whole) have ranked him consistently. That's just a fact, no point in arguing against what's true.

That doesn't mean you have to agree with it or that the consensus is beyond debate. But that is the consensus.


With all due respect, the only thing I can think here is that there's a language barrier here. I'm not sure how to be more clear on this. Do you know what I mean when I say consensus?

 

[Whitesnake]

Take everything before 2011 (when Price really became the starter) and throw it in the trash.

Double standards here. So fine, let's throw everything in the garbage to see his real worth and yet....everybody comes back with the "But he's been incredible in his pre-Pro career and in Hamilton". And now we also have to disregard his first years? Well of course, he was incredibly young, was not going to make miracles. But they decided in 2007-2008, that's 3 seasons before you're asking me to start consider him, that he had to play more games than what we had at the time. Still ended up playing 41 games and yet, not sure why we should discard this, it's probably another reason for our high expectations based on how great he played in the regular season. And every goalie who plays most of the games in the playoffs are considered to be your starting goalie. Playing 52 games isn't a starter? We had strong backup...but he was the starter. And was also the guy to go with in the playoffs. 2009-2010, well because he was unable to get his level up...he lost his starting job. That's pretty much what happened. But then gained it back after and had a tremendous season. Surely his best season yet as he had to deal with the pressure of letting Halak go. Followed by a bad season where everybody was bad. And a short season with ups and downs. So there's a little something for everybody. For the people who see glimpses of brillance from people looking for more consistency. Not being able to do what Halak did will still follow him till he does it himself. Nature of the beast. We had the same team that Halak had, Price lost his starting job to him and wasn't able to regain it in the playoffs. Till he doesn't stand tall in those playoffs, there will be question marks. He has proven he's capable of very good regular seasons....playoffs, with good reasons, is still a question mark. Hope he transform the question mark in exclmation mark real soon.

In the end though, it's tough to throw everything in the garbage and only keep the things that we're happy about. When people analyse his play, from good to bad, they are not solely analysing his last 2 seasons. They are remembering what he did with the Dogs. They remember his first season with the Habs. Remember his tremendous season after Halak left. While we can all understand that a goalie doesn't peak at 20, we also have seen a lot of goalies who also happen to reached a plateau fairly young. In all the reports and consensus you are talking about....you will always read and ear something along the likes of "....but his potential is elite standard..." We saw glimpses of that potential as proven, needs to see it in a more consistent basis. As we're seeing it this year. Yes, he will have bad games. Pretty sure that nobody could be constantly good for 82 games. But the great ones don't have a lot of those.

Again, do we extend this to Subban too? If we lose in the first round again do we say that Subban isn't good enough to get us past it? Why can Keith do it but not Subban?

No. Subban has already proven he's #1 in his category. And we pretty much all know he's going to be there this year. And for years to come at least be final 3 almost every year. When this is achieved, you know that you are doing the best job you can. As far as why others are doing it and not us....well of course, pretty sure that the only thing we agree on is that we're clearly not strong enough to be considered a cup contender for years to come. Not yet.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Double standards here. So fine, let's throw everything in the garbage to see his real worth and yet....everybody comes back with the "But he's been incredible in his pre-Pro career and in Hamilton". And now we also have to disregard his first years? Well of course, he was incredibly young, was not going to make miracles. But they decided in 2007-2008, that's 3 seasons before you're asking me to start consider him, that he had to play more games than what we had at the time. Still ended up playing 41 games and yet, not sure why we should discard this, it's probably another reason for our high expectations based on how great he played in the regular season. And every goalie who plays most of the games in the playoffs are considered to be your starting goalie. Playing 52 games isn't a starter? We had strong backup...but he was the starter. And was also the guy to go with in the playoffs. 2009-2010, well because he was unable to get his level up...he lost his starting job. That's pretty much what happened. But then gained it back after and had a tremendous season. Surely his best season yet as he had to deal with the pressure of letting Halak go. Followed by a bad season where everybody was bad. And a short season with ups and downs. So there's a little something for everybody. For the people who see glimpses of brillance from people looking for more consistency. Not being able to do what Halak did will still follow him till he does it himself. Nature of the beast. We had the same team that Halak had, Price lost his starting job to him and wasn't able to regain it in the playoffs. Till he doesn't stand tall in those playoffs, there will be question marks. He has proven he's capable of very good regular seasons....playoffs, with good reasons, is still a question mark. Hope he transform the question mark in exclmation mark real soon.

In the end though, it's tough to throw everything in the garbage and only keep the things that we're happy about. When people analyse his play, from good to bad, they are not solely analysing his last 2 seasons. They are remembering what he did with the Dogs. They remember his first season with the Habs. Remember his tremendous season after Halak left. While we can all understand that a goalie doesn't peak at 20, we also have seen a lot of goalies who also happen to reached a plateau fairly young. In all the reports and consensus you are talking about....you will always read and ear something along the likes of "....but his potential is elite standard..." We saw glimpses of that potential as proven, needs to see it in a more consistent basis. As we're seeing it this year. Yes, he will have bad games. Pretty sure that nobody could be constantly good for 82 games. But the great ones don't have a lot of those.

He wasn't considered a top five goalie before 2011. Should we look at Pekka Rinne's years when he was 22? He wasn't even in the NHL by then. Hell the guy only started making the playoffs at age 27. Look at how long it took Lundqvist to have success in the playoffs and he's never won a cup.

Does that make him less good? Is Corey Crawford better than him?

No. Subban has already proven he's #1 in his category. And we pretty much all know he's going to be there this year. And for years to come at least be final 3 almost every year. When this is achieved, you know that you are doing the best job you can. As far as why others are doing it and not us....well of course, pretty sure that the only thing we agree on is that we're clearly not strong enough to be considered a cup contender for years to come. Not yet.

But Keith has won two cups. Chara has won a cup and been to the finals last year.

They MUST be better blueliners in the playoffs right? 'Cause why else would they have advanced and not Subban?



I realize that these are ridiculous questions. But those are the kinds of arguments you are making against Price.

 

[habsfanatics*]

I'm not saying this at all...

I only bothered looking up TSN and THN... in my travels I saw some on NHL.com that's ALL that I looked at man and he's on all their lists. He's also on the lists of the GMs, coaches, players... I didn't cherrypick people who would agree with me.

I'm sure there are some blogs who wouldn't agree, individuals who wouldn't agree. I'm not saying it's unanimous. But it is heavy consensus.

Do we really have to debate this?

He's a consensus top five netminder. Accept it and move on.


Okay, YOU go and find other sources that don't have him top five.

Obviously TSN, THN, GMs, Coaches, Players, NHL.com will disagree with you. So what are you going to come back with? Individual blogs? Agnostic's posts? I mean come on dude... Like I said, consensus does not mean unanimity. You could point to say... Jack Todd (a journalist) and I'm sure he'd agree with you.

These weren't cherrypicked by me. I went to the most obvious sites and you've seen the results. By consensus that's where he is. Why do you have to argue against this? That's where the most credible analysts and players and coaches (as a whole) have ranked him consistently. That's just a fact, no point in arguing against what's true.

That doesn't mean you have to agree with it or that the consensus is beyond debate. But that is the consensus.


With all due respect, the only thing I can think here is that there's a language barrier here. I'm not sure how to be more clear on this. Do you know what I mean when I say consensus?

Except he's not a consensus top 5 goalie, why should we move on agreeing with this lunacy.

 

[Whitesnake]

With all due respect, the only thing I can think here is that there's a language barrier here. I'm not sure how to be more clear on this. Do you know what I mean when I say consensus?

With all due respect...yeah right. Pretty sure you're past that point with this now dude.

And since no matter what list I'm providing, you're going to diss them 'cause they are not up to Lafleur Guy's standards, what's the point in wasting my time. No, I don't see the consensus. Didn't see the pool where all 800 players were asked who was the best goalie and they mostly all had him top 5. Same with the 30 GM's. The same report you are giving me on NHL.com as 6 guys that has him top 5, 4 who don't. So YES, by the way they counted the points depending where in the list he is....he finishes top 5. Yet, it's not as clear as Lundqvist, Rinne and Quick who CLEARLY fits more the profile of being consensus pick as EVERYBODY minus 1 or 2 has then in their top 5. Consensus is somebody most if not all agree on. Not the case on NHL.com.

Anyway, frankly, I'm really done discussing this with you. You have your view. I have mine. Experts have their views from yours to mine. But if you really want the final word, I'll gladly give it to you....with all due respect.

 

[Whitesnake]

He wasn't considered a top five goalie before 2011. Should we look at Pekka Rinne's years when he was 22? He wasn't even in the NHL by then. Hell the guy only started making the playoffs at age 27. Look at how long it took Lundqvist to have success in the playoffs and he's never won a cup.

Does that make him less good? Is Corey Crawford better than him?

Don't get this. You said, let's disregard 2011 and less 'cause he wasn't a starter, well as I prove to you, he kinda was and lost it. But now you're point is, less disregard those years 'cause he wasn't considered top 5? Why? If a goalie comes in the league and is absolutely brillant the first 2 years before peole realize it and acknowledge him....when it's time to judge him, we need to forget about the first 2 years 'cause he wasn't looked at as one of the best? Again...Why? He was a starter. Started most of the games regular season and playoffs. Till he lost it to Halak.

As far as Rinne and Lundqvist....again, look at their personal nominations and wins. Pretty sure I clearly mentioned that playoffs, while a big part, was a PART of a goalie's success. We still can't disregard the freakin Vezina trophy.....or NHL first all-star team or the 6 Vezina nominations.....1 Hart Trophy and 1 Ted Lindsay award should we? And Rinne 2 Vezina nominations and playing with teams who couldn't score to save their lives year after year...

But Keith has won two cups. Chara has won a cup and been to the finals last year. They MUST be better blueliners in the playoffs right? 'Cause why else would they have advanced and not Subban?I realize that these are ridiculous questions. But those are the kinds of arguments you are making against Price.

Those are ridiculous 'cause I never said that the playoffs were the ONLY thing to take into consideration. Considering the fact that I've said it plenty of time that it wasn't....it is somewhat ridiculous. But you said it....not me. Okay I said it too.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

With all due respect...yeah right. Pretty sure you're past that point with this now dude.

And since no matter what list I'm providing, you're going to diss them 'cause they are not up to Lafleur Guy's standards, what's the point in wasting my time. No, I don't see the consensus. Didn't see the pool where all 800 players were asked who was the best goalie and they mostly all had him top 5. Same with the 30 GM's. The same report you are giving me on NHL.com as 6 guys that has him top 5, 4 who don't. So YES, by the way they counted the points depending where in the list he is....he finishes top 5. Yet, it's not as clear as Lundqvist, Rinne and Quick who CLEARLY fits more the profile of being consensus pick as EVERYBODY minus 1 or 2 has then in their top 5. Consensus is somebody most if not all agree on. Not the case on NHL.com.

Anyway, frankly, I'm really done discussing this with you. You have your view. I have mine. Experts have their views from yours to mine. But if you really want the final word, I'll gladly give it to you....with all due respect.

Do you understand the difference between 'consensus' and 'unanimity'?

Nobody is saying it's unanimous or that it can't be disputed.

But the consensus from the most credible sources (and his peers, coaches and NHL GMs) is that he's top five. That's fact.


I can't explain it any clearer than this.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Don't get this. You said, let's disregard 2011 and less 'cause he wasn't a starter, well as I prove to you, he kinda was and lost it. But now you're point is, less disregard those years 'cause he wasn't considered top 5? Why? If a goalie comes in the league and is absolutely brillant the first 2 years before peole realize it and acknowledge him....when it's time to judge him, we need to forget about the first 2 years 'cause he wasn't looked at as one of the best? Again...Why? He was a starter. Started most of the games regular season and playoffs. Till he lost it to Halak.

As far as Rinne and Lundqvist....again, look at their personal nominations and wins. Pretty sure I clearly mentioned that playoffs, while a big part, was a PART of a goalie's success. We still can't disregard the freakin Vezina trophy.....or NHL first all-star team or the 6 Vezina nominations.....1 Hart Trophy and 1 Ted Lindsay award should we? And Rinne 2 Vezina nominations and playing with teams who couldn't score to save their lives year after year...

Well, we're talking about Price now. We're talking about how he'd do in the playoffs now. And I'd say that he's shown that he can play well. We haven't shown that we can support him well enough to win. And I feel the same about Subban.

Those are ridiculous 'cause I never said that the playoffs were the ONLY thing to take into consideration. Considering the fact that I've said it plenty of time that it wasn't....it is somewhat ridiculous. But you said it....not me. Okay I said it too.

Well, some have said it's the playoffs... others haven't.

Just pointing to the argument that 'he has to win in the playoffs or else' (which we've heard a lot here - maybe not by you) is a ridiculous one to make. The guy can play awesome and we lose (as he did against Boston) and we'll still hear guys saying he can't win. Well, extend the same argument to Subban then... guess he's not good enough to win either.