The Biggest Goat: Bernier, Leighton, others

[Reduxs]

Don't bother, man. I've been down this road.

EDIT: I see you are new here. Go back and look at some old threads where people say that Michael Leighton's three shutouts in the ECF are not a big deal and he deserves no credit or anything for that (because the defense was so good, not him). That will give you an idea about how "unbiased" people are around here regarding Michael Leighton.

I've browsed long enough to know that there's not a lot of original or rational thought going on here, which is why I typically don't post, or take any stock in what's said around here.

We're all human, and as such we're imperfect and mistake prone. Leighton just happened to make one of his mistakes on the national stage. But the fact that he got there in the first place speaks to how talented he is relative to all of you. It's been two years. Are you all still pissed at Mitch Williams?

I know at some point all of you have screwed up and it's affected someone else around you. Would it be fair if that person continued to dwell on it for years if it was an honest mistake? Do you not think you would deserve a second chance? Get the **** over it. It's in the past.

 

[Beef Invictus]

the problem is, Leighton wasn't a good goalie then. He isn't a good goalie now. Its not that he's unfairly a scapegoat, its that he sucks as an NHL player.

 

[CharlieGirl]

the problem is, Leighton wasn't a good goalie then. He isn't a good goalie now. Its not that he's unfairly a scapegoat, its that he sucks as an NHL player.

And unfortunately, he's in the present and not just in the past.

 

[Beef Invictus]

And unfortunately, he's in the present and not just in the past.

It's unbelievable. I don't know how anybody could look at Leighton, how he played, the sort of goals he allowed versus the difficulty of saves made, and thinnk "Yes. This is the solution. Problem: solved!"

 

[Flyerfan4life]

It's unbelievable. I don't know how anybody could look at Leighton, how he played, the sort of goals he allowed versus the difficulty of saves made, and thinnk "Yes. This is the solution. Problem: solved!"

ummm the same thing could be said for Bryz at alot of points during last season..

 

[Reduxs]

I don't think anyone here is claiming that he's a great goalie, or even a good goalie. I think pinning the loss in the 2010 Finals on him is unfair though, considering how poor the third defensive pairing was, and the fact that our best players failed to show up offensively.

We don't make the playoffs or the finals though without Leighton, so pinning it on him is unfair.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I don't think anyone here is claiming that he's a great goalie, or even a good goalie. I think pinning the loss in the 2010 Finals on him is unfair though, considering how poor the third defensive pairing was, and the fact that our best players failed to show up offensively.

We don't make the playoffs or the finals though without Leighton, so pinning it on him is unfair.

so let me ask you this and the other Leighton lovers around here. The Flyers scored 22 goals in 6 games and it wasnt enough. Leighton was yanked twice in the first 5 games of the Cup Final.
Who do you pin the blame on then? Timonen? the offense should of scored more then 3.5 goals a game? who? Leighton was ****ing brutal against Chicago. There is no disputing that.
anyone who thinks that the matchups in the first 3 series werent a factor are in serious denial.
i am looking forward to this season with Leighton in goal when every goal he allows will be someone elses fault. Like Bryzgalov last year who appearantly didnt allow a goal that wasnt his fault.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't think anyone here is claiming that he's a great goalie, or even a good goalie. I think pinning the loss in the 2010 Finals on him is unfair though, considering how poor the third defensive pairing was, and the fact that our best players failed to show up offensively.

We don't make the playoffs or the finals though without Leighton, so pinning it on him is unfair.

We scored 22 freaking goals! Even a .900 save percentage (still considered bad) would have probably given us a Cup. The 3rd pairing wasn't good, but the were made to look worse than they actually were because the goalie was utterly incapable of bailing them out.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

so let me ask you this and the other Leighton lovers around here. The Flyers scored 22 goals in 6 games and it wasnt enough. Leighton was yanked twice in the first 5 games of the Cup Final.
Who do you pin the blame on then? Timonen? the offense should of scored more then 3.5 goals a game? who? Leighton was ****ing brutal against Chicago. There is no disputing that.
anyone who thinks that the matchups in the first 3 series werent a factor are in serious denial.
i am looking forward to this season with Leighton in goal when every goal he allows will be someone elses fault. Like Bryzgalov last year who appearantly didnt allow a goal that wasnt his fault.

We scored 22 freaking goals! Even a .900 save percentage (still considered bad) would have probably given us a Cup. The 3rd pairing wasn't good, but the were made to look worse than they actually were because the goalie was utterly incapable of bailing them out.

Just so we are clear. Your best three offensive players score 6 total points and are a -21 and they get a pass. Your third pairing defense plays a TOTAL of what, ten minutes in six games and they get a pass. They are blameless because other players stepped up. Is this a correct characterization of what you are saying?

 

[Reduxs]

so let me ask you this and the other Leighton lovers around here. The Flyers scored 22 goals in 6 games and it wasnt enough. Leighton was yanked twice in the first 5 games of the Cup Final.
Who do you pin the blame on then? Timonen? the offense should of scored more then 3.5 goals a game? who? Leighton was ****ing brutal against Chicago. There is no disputing that.
anyone who thinks that the matchups in the first 3 series werent a factor are in serious denial.
i am looking forward to this season with Leighton in goal when every goal he allows will be someone elses fault. Like Bryzgalov last year who appearantly didnt allow a goal that wasnt his fault.

May want to work on your reading comprehension before taking the SATs in a couple of years. I think my first sentence in my previous post said I'm not claiming Leighton is a good goalie. All I said is we don't make the cup final without him, or the playoffs. Is something difficult to understand about that?

 

[Hockeypete49]

I have seen a ton over the years. Bernier's is pretty bad. Marty McSorley's illegal stick was a cup killer in 1993. Bobby Orr's minor with two minutes to go dashed any hopes Boston had against us. But my all time goat and any true Flyer fan old enough will agree. Is the Leon Steckel off sides call against us. He cost us the game and if we win that game there was no way the isles beat us at home for the cup. Just one of the worst calls ever. But its things like that, that make you suck it up and take calls against you in stride. **** happens, get busy living and do not sweat the little ****!

 

[Hockeypete49]

Just so we are clear. Your best three offensive players score 6 total points and are a -21 and they get a pass. Your third pairing defense plays a TOTAL of what, ten minutes in six games and they get a pass. They are blameless because other players stepped up. Is this a correct characterization of what you are saying?

Very well stated. That is one reason Leighton was not even on my list.

 

[DumpyD]

I wonder if the Devils will sign Bernier two more times in the coming years.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Other players stepped up to try to cover Leighton. Leighton didn't cover for anybody.

Seriously, how do you look at that team and its stats and not immediately identify the goaltender who was pulled twice and put up a horrific .86% as the biggest issue? When your goalie does that it doesn't matter what anybody else does, because they have no chance to win.

Nobody absolves the 3rd pairing or first line of all blame, but at the end of the day they weren't nearly as big a problem as Leighton laying a rhino-sized turd in the crease.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Other players stepped up to try to cover Leighton. Leighton didn't cover for anybody.

Seriously, how do you look at that team and its stats and not immediately identify the goaltender who was pulled twice and put up a horrific .86% as the biggest issue? When your goalie does that it doesn't matter what anybody else does, because they have no chance to win.

Nobody absolves the 3rd pairing or first line of all blame, but at the end of the day they weren't nearly as big a problem as Leighton laying a rhino-sized turd in the crease.

It's clear, as it has been since 2010, that we just don't see eye to eye on this. It is a team effort to win and a team effort to lose. When you get abysmal scoring from your primary scorers, that is a problem. Secondary scoring stepping up is great, but teams aren't going to win many series, let alone championship series, if their primary scoring doesn't show up. And as well as the defense played, they were far from perfect. You have a competent third pairing that can play, I don't know, even 8 minutes per game to take some heat off of Pronger/Timonen etc, and the level of defensive play goes up as well. You can look at any of those problems and say if they were different the outcome would have been different. Leighton plays better and the third pair/top scorers don't and they win. Top scorers play better and Leighton/third pair don't and they win. And so forth and so on.

If that wasn't the case, I would agree with you. But if you have multiple things that you could change individually and have a different outcome, I don't understand how you can tell me one is a larger cause than the other. It isn't like I am saying that Jody Shelley should have scored more goals. I am talking about your three best offensive players having a better line than 6 points and -21. If it isn't too much to ask for the goalie to put up reasonable stats, it shouldn't be too much to ask for your three best players to do so.

I think you also have to keep in mind, that I am in no way saying Leighton played well or that he is blameless. He sucked. But he wasn't the only one sucking. Team game. Team loss. You can blame whomever you want, but in the end there was more than one person on the ice in that series that didn't hold up their end of the bargain.

 

[Embiid]

Seeing people ***** about Coburn reminded me of this thread. So as the resident thread necromancer I have resurrected this thread in Lazarus like fashion.

Obviously, Leighton was a legit goat despite the opinions of some apologists. The same with Bryz, Shelley and some others including Hartnell when he would go into stupid mode and be a waste of kinetic energy like Meltzer once characterized the play of Simmonds.

Carle IMO was mostly an exaggerated goat ....same with Coburn.

Going into this upcoming season...who are your goats?

Will it be Vinny ...AMac...the Schenns, Grossmann..etc.

 

[flyershockey]

I forgot how indignant some posters used to get about Leighton. The guy sucked. He should have never been in a position to cost the Flyers a cup, but he was. And I'll dislike him forever for it.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

Is it sad that I read the past 3 pages of this thread without realizing it was from 2012 and the only thing I found odd was that CharlieGirl came back to post here?

 

[Flyerfan4life]

It's not about one goal, it's really about the entire series where he was just dreadful. Outside of game 3 he was awful. And iirc a big problem during the season for the team was not scoring goals. So I don't think Leighton had much to do with turning that around. He didn't save the season by himself.

you guys are hilarous..

"he didnt save the season by himself", but he did loss the cup by himself ??

nice dual-standard..

 

[Random Forest]

Is it sad that I read the past 3 pages of this thread without realizing it was from 2012 and the only thing I found odd was that CharlieGirl came back to post here?

Don't forget MsWoof who is now a hardcore Kings fan.

I think I saw her cheering about Giroux's arrest because it meant he would be traded to LA...

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Is this thread really being brought back?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Ah yes, 2012. When the trauma of a Devils elimination made me go through my fish phase.


Also, LOL. But I don't think we need to bump this, as it's just too dated. And thinking about Leighton in the Finals makes me sad.