The Biggest Disappointments... Teams "DEAD TO ME"

[MadLuke]

You cheer for your hometown team because that's what you're supposed to do... it's what your family and friends do... and it's kind of expected.

It is way more convenient, maybe less now, but in the past in some market it was the only game you could watch.

And even in a nhl network world, chearing for the same team than the people you are likely to watch it with, the sports bar will play on the big screen, the local media cover, at work that what the conversation will be about, like most thing that seem irrational that human sheepily do, they kind of make sense in a rational level and human are programming to do it automatically for reasons.

Fan of other teams often hate watch the local one anyway to keep on.

 

[Boxscore]

And yes, the fans' utter obsession with salaries is bizarre to me.

I don't think it's the salaries -- as is, "fans caring how much money a player makes" -- as much as it's the trickle down effect of said salaries. When player salaries become so massive they cumulatively price the average middle class person, or family, out of the arena... and ultimately being the reason that player (or other popular players) eventually get jettisoned... fans get frustrated, feel betrayed, and lash out at the biggest elephant in the room: outrageous player salaries.

Of course there is way more nuance to this line of thinking, such as the greedy owners still pricing fans out, then pocketing all the extra money. But I believe the sentiment among most fans is that they simply want the NHL to revert back to the game they loved growing up. And that includes being able to afford tickets for a family of four and cheer for players who end up mainstays. These days, every aspect of an NHL "experience" is a blatant "money grab" and the overly-corporatization has no doubt effected fandom.

As Sr. Edler stated above, it's almost become an abusive relationship of sorts with many teams. These faceless, cold, corporate owners want our money more than they want to create a winning culture, to embrace the community, make the games enjoyable and affordable, and give fans a reason to be emotionally engaged. It's only when many of us begin to walk away, shut our pockets, or become apathetic, that they are financially-driven to make radical changes. And, in some cases, they still don't, lol.

 

[MadLuke]

When player salaries become so massive they cumulatively price the average middle class person, or family, out of the arena... and ultimately being the reason that player (or other popular players) eventually get jettisoned... fans get frustrated, feel betrayed, and lash out at the biggest elephant in the room: outrageous player salaries.

Not saying people don't think like that (in the mid 90s maybe), but I doubt it, I imagine lot of people now assume player get 50% of the revenues, ticket are sold the highest people will pay for them (why would they be sold cheaper than that ?), tomorrow if players to leave half their salary on the table, why would ticket price goes down ?

Ticket in toronto cost much more than the Dallas star, they have not that dissimilar of salary mass.

Specially since the salary cap, it is it quite normal for fans to care about players contract.

 

[Boxscore]

Not saying people think like that (in the mid 90s maybe), but I doubt it, I imagine lot of people now assume player get 50% of the revenues, ticket are sold the highest people will pay for them (why would they be sold cheaper than that ?), tomorrow if players to leave half their salary on the table, why would ticket price goes down ?

Ticket in toronto cost much more than the Dallas star, they have not that dissimilar of salary mass.

Specially since the salary cap, it is it quite normal for fans to care about players contract.

Agreed. But I think the crux is that fans (erroneously) believe that if the players all made 50% less, tickets would be reduced by 40% and players wouldn't need to be traded for cap reasons. My point being, I don't think fans personally care that John Tavares makes 10.5 mil or whatever, unless his salary is a main reason they can't afford Leafs tix and why there's no money left over for the team to spend on beefing up the defense for a Cup run. That's just my take after years of listening to fans of all ages vent about ticket prices and teams being hampered by the salary cap.

 

[MadLuke]

I feel fans care about player salary way less than when I was younger (say the 90s, when they exploded) outside cap hit issue.

Rewatching Jerry McGuire is like a time capsule, traveling back in the days people find it weird and questionable that an athlete made millions, now if someone make 10m a year in actual money but with a cap hit of "just" $2.5m because of some cap retention, about zero fans will have any issue with it, they would all say great.

Now we hear more about people having issue with CEO of a giant company making the kind of money third liner do.

 

[Boxscore]

I feel fans care about player salary way less than when I was younger (say the 90s, when they exploded) outside cap hit issue.

Rewatching Jerry McGuire is like a time capsule, traveling back in the days people find it weird and questionable that an athlete made millions, now if someone make 10m a year in actual money but with a cap hit of "just" $2.5m because of some cap retention, about zero fans will have any issue with it, they would all say great.

Now we hear more about people having issue with CEO of a giant company making the kind of money third liner do.

Hey, you could be right, I dunno. But, do you really think Leafs fans would care what Tavares, Matthews, Marner, and Nylander were making if there was no cap and we could have signed Alex Pietrangelo, Nazem Kadri, and Ondrej Palat as UFAs? I honestly don't.

 

[MadLuke]

were making if there was no cap

It depends it would be how much, (say $30 millions for Matthews in a capless world ? maybe it rise some highbrows), I feel that no, like I said caring about how much athlete, singer, actor, movie director do is a bit of a 90s things.

It is more CEO, doctors, lawyers, etc... making millions that get that scrutiny or people caring. For entertainer, it is easy for people to see their talent and make the link between revenues and their income in a way it is really hard for most other high paid profession.

I am a bit confused with your But in the sentence, you seem to 100% agree with me and disagree with the initial idea that people cared about player salary because they thought it increased ticket price.

 

[Boxscore]

I am a bit confused with your But in the sentence, you seem to 100% agree with me and disagree with the initial idea that people cared about player salary because they thought it increased ticket price.

Sorry for the confusion. My point is -- I don't think people care about a player's "actually salary" in terms of resenting them for being able to buy multiple homes, cars, and have financial security for their families. I think fans mainly gripe over a player's salary because they believe their salaries are the reason ticket prices are soooo high and that their favorite teams see their success limited due to the player's cap hit.

Honestly, prior to the hard cap, I don't remember any fans I know complaining about a player's salary. Even when the Flyers overpaid on washed up players, the fans could care less because Mr. Snider would keep spending to bring in talent.

 

[The Panther]

Fans seem to be obsessed over salaries because of the salary cap. Any player who makes an above-average salary but isn't regularly winning Harts, Norries, or Vezinas is deemed to be a bum who is costing the team and therefore must be flogged by the fanbases. Before the salary cap, my impression is that fans blamed teams / owners (ex., Rangers) for over-spending on high-priced players rather than building through the draft, etc. But there were few(er) fans who blamed the individual players for being overpaid.

Complete opposite now, where it's pretty much all the player's fault for being overpaid. Or, if it's not the player's fault, the fanbase is nevertheless going to judge that player incredibly harshly because of his salary (and therefore how his salary inhibits the team from paying / signing other players).

A club today can barely lift the Stanley Cup without the commentators immediately talking about the team's salary cap issues going into next season...

 

[MadLuke]

I feel there is a bit of revisionist history going on (or maybe Quebec was a bit more socialist than average back in the day and Expos were bleeding their players, the nordiques moved away because of it and so on).

Like I said about rewatching Jerry McGuire being about the controversy of high athlete salary being a bit of a time travel, it is hard to reput ourself in that mindset, but in the 90s athlete salary was a much bigger topic of discussion than now, it is all almost exclusively about their cap hit now, not their salary (the consensus being pretty much go get as much money you can and build multi generation wealth if you can).

Complete opposite now, where it's pretty much all the player's fault for being overpaid.

In Mtl, I think there a lot of Gallagher cap hit and the other terrible contract is Bergevin fault, not the player at all. With fans being hyper leniant on the Weber-Price retirement and almost all bad contract from a player fault point of view.

 

[Boxscore]

Fans seem to be obsessed over salaries because of the salary cap. Any player who makes an above-average salary but isn't regularly winning Harts, Norries, or Vezinas is deemed to be a bum who is costing the team and therefore must be flogged by the fanbases. Before the salary cap, my impression is that fans blamed teams / owners (ex., Rangers) for over-spending on high-priced players rather than building through the draft, etc. But there were few(er) fans who blamed the individual players for being overpaid.

Complete opposite now, where it's pretty much all the player's fault for being overpaid. Or, if it's not the player's fault, the fanbase is nevertheless going to judge that player incredibly harshly because of his salary (and therefore how his salary inhibits the team from paying / signing other players).

A club today can barely lift the Stanley Cup without the commentators immediately talking about the team's salary cap issues going into next season...

Very true. Exhibit A: The Flyers signing Chris Gratton to that insane deal. When he was mediocre in Philly and crumbled under the pressure, the fans never really took it out on him... they were laughing at the Flyers for the deal... but they weren't upset because Philly would just fork over more cash for another good player.

 

[sr edler]

Very true. Exhibit A: The Flyers signing Chris Gratton to that insane deal. When he was mediocre in Philly and crumbled under the pressure, the fans never really took it out on him... they were laughing at the Flyers for the deal... but they weren't upset because Philly would just fork over more cash for another good player.

Sure, but I think these type of things or deals or signings or contracts during that particular time period still contributed to higher ticket prices, et cetera, and the overall economic landscape in which the league operates today. Fans can say "what does it matter if it doesn't count against the cap it's just the owners money" but owners don't think like this they raise the ticket prices instead and they raise the merch prices and they raise food prices in the arena, et cetera, because you can't run a long-term business on minuses. Teams and players essentially work for the same company, the National Hockey League Inc.

 

[MadLuke]

College football athlete were not paid that much (officially at least), NCAA college football game ticket were higher than even Toronto I think:

NCAA college football average ticket price by conference 2021 | Statista

College football takes place in organized leagues between teams of students from different universities in the U.S.

www.statista.com

Wouldn't scalper market capture all of the mistake made by selling too low made those teams if they sell their ticket lower than market value ?

The players demands for a giant share of the revenues can push them at becoming a more revenues oriented league, ads on the board-ice-shirt, etc... TV contract structure, decision about going to the olympics or not, etc...

But ticket price at the gate ? Or merch, that seem that would follow demand-supply.

if player wanted both a fix amount and lower than now or going from 50% to 35% of the revenues, how much lower ticket price would go do we think ?

We saw Buffalo ticket price go under $20 ($17) this year, they get already extremely low in place that do not have strong demand and in place with high demand why would they go down ?

 

[overpass]

I dropped the Leafs back in 2004. I had started cheering for them when I lived in Southern Ontario. Back when they had Doug Gilmour, Wendel Clark, and Felix Potvin. Then my family moved to Ottawa not long after. The Sens were terrible and I stuck with the Leafs.

By 2004, I didn't have much attachment to the remaining Leafs. Gary Roberts and Alyn McCauley were my favourites and both were gone or leaving. But the bigger factor was that I realized I didn't like the Leafs fan in Ottawa experience. There was a weird combative attitude associated with it, like it was about sneering at Sens fans as much as cheering for the team. I realized I would rather just cheer for the local team with everyone else.

It also helped that the Sens were a Stanley Cup favourite, and I was ready to watch Spezza and Hasek lead them to the Cup. That didn't work out, but it was a good run and I didn't miss anything from the Leafs.

More recently the Sens have been more or less dead to me ever since they traded Mark Stone. I understood trading Karlsson, even though it was tough, but the Stone trade just drove it home that the experience was going to suck as long as Melnyk owned the team. Pierre Dorion recently confirmed Stone was willing to sign long term but Melnyk refused, and I'm not surprised to hear it.

I have been watching with interest ever since they brought Jacques Martin back to teach the young players winning hockey. And Sanderson and Pinto look like the real deal. So I'm probably getting back in next year.

 

[overpass]

Sure, but I think these type of things or deals or signings or contracts during that particular time period still contributed to higher ticket prices, et cetera, and the overall economic landscape in which the league operates today. Fans can say "what does it matter if it doesn't count against the cap it's just the owners money" but owners don't think like this they raise the ticket prices instead and they raise the merch prices and they raise food prices in the arena, et cetera, because you can't run a long-term business on minuses. Teams and players essentially work for the same company, the National Hockey League Inc.

I think owners are becoming less sympathetic because these franchises are starting to sell for billions of dollars. We see what's going on in other leagues as well. And new ownership groups are coming in, having paid huge amounts of money and taken on debt financing, and they have to squeeze more out of each revenue stream and limit costs more than the last owner just based on what they paid. This cycle puts downward pressure on player salaries going forward as well as all the increase in value gets captured by owners, both those cashing out and those holding on to their increasingly valuable assets. Cheering for a business that has to balance the books and make money for millionaires is one thing, but it's not as bad as cheering for an asset that has to constantly increase in valuation for the benefit of billionaires.

 

[MadLuke]

and they have to squeeze more out of each revenue stream and limit costs more than the last owner just based on what they paid. This cycle puts downward pressure on player salaries going forward as well as all the increase in value gets captured by owners

If revenues goes up, players salary goes up, the cost-cutting can hardly be on player salaries, they kind of caputre a fix amount, they can cut all their benefit in term of personnals, infrastructure, some of the extra not protected around travel, coaching.

Turning the league in speculative asset not linked that much to actual profit with leverage like you say was how they captured value more than players salaries going down. Has interest went up and if they stay up, with network TV having peaked as well, we could be after the peak of professional team valuation.

I think in that regard public state involvement (on the arena, on the tax credit on commercial suite), when the Molson family made the Centre Molson financed at 100% from private equity-money, there was some nostalgia talk about leaving the Forum, but zero controversy surrounding a new arena. Now with city-state getting involved massively in them (was the Center Molson the very last one to be 100% private?), it is always a big deal. Specially in the era when the ownership bring almost zero money, get financed at near 0% and sell the team at a giant profit because the team had an brand new arena that was largely public financed.

I wonder how football club that stayed kind of fan owned versus the giant business one go on in Europe.

 

[overpass]

If revenues goes up, players salary goes up, the cost-cutting can hardly be on player salaries, they kind of caputre a fix amount, they can cut all their benefit in term of personnals, infrastructure, some of the extra not protected around travel, coaching.

Yes, as long as the CBA keeps the percentage of revenue that goes to the players constant. But the owners will always want to push that percentage down and they have been successful at times. I don't remember the details but wasn't that what the owners were trying to do in the 2013 lockout, as well as the 2012 NBA lockout?

 

[MadLuke]

Couple of points, but players revenue share cut down to 46% was probably the big one yes

 

[Voight]

Fans seem to be obsessed over salaries because of the salary cap. Any player who makes an above-average salary but isn't regularly winning Harts, Norries, or Vezinas is deemed to be a bum who is costing the team and therefore must be flogged by the fanbases. Before the salary cap, my impression is that fans blamed teams / owners (ex., Rangers) for over-spending on high-priced players rather than building through the draft, etc. But there were few(er) fans who blamed the individual players for being overpaid.

Complete opposite now, where it's pretty much all the player's fault for being overpaid. Or, if it's not the player's fault, the fanbase is nevertheless going to judge that player incredibly harshly because of his salary (and therefore how his salary inhibits the team from paying / signing other players).

A club today can barely lift the Stanley Cup without the commentators immediately talking about the team's salary cap issues going into next season...

Not to mention sites like CapFriendly that not only list every players salary, but allow people to be armchair GMs.

 

[MadLuke]

Not to mention sites like CapFriendly that not only list every players salary, but allow people to be armchair GMs.

And I imagine video game franchise/gm mode ?

Of nhl 94 as a kid when you were building teams for fun, salary was not much in my head, sometime I was not going purely all-star on them, but for aesthetic-realism of the trades, not that it would not fit under my team revenue and some of my favorite player were not big stars.

 

[Staniowski]

Because...?

I'm not really sure (i haven't analyzed it much), but I think it's partly because I have very low feelings of nationalism. I've almost never cheered for Canada in any sport. But I think it's more than that, because I don't cheer for any NHL team either.

I love best-on-best hockey, though.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yeah, IMO it's a weird thing with a league (and its teams) like this (or modern sports in general) being so overly in-your-face corporate, and then expecting their fans to be loyal to death. It almost reminds me of an abusive relationship. Obviously, like any healthy relationship it should be a two-way street.

Sports clubs aren't even called clubs anymore, they're called "franchises" as if it's a McDonald's restaurant or something, and the league is run by lawyers.

And 50+% of the fan discourse nowadays is all about the cap and contracts, and about the cap and multi-million $ contracts, and about the cap and contracts...

the last part is partly due to how much the CBA governs the on-ice product, but i think there’s a similar phenomenon that has nothing to do with the CBA: what i think of as baseball and football’s influence on north american sports fandom in general, in terms of hyperspecific micro-stats and breaking the game down to discretely measurable events, via an ungodly combination of moneyball, fantasy sports, and widespread legalized sports betting.

in very different context, a german critic once wrote about an “aesthetics of administration.” just a bizarre impoverishment of experience and enjoyment.

 

[MadLuke]

When the Forum closed, they made an auction, selling the famous red seat, hot-dog grill, penalty box door.

It is hard to imagine something like that for the modern arenas, for the nice items (banner, etc...) I am sure, but people paying $500 for a brick ? Of a building that changed name all the time depending on the highest bidder to place an ad on it...

Has for the micro-stats and micro-events, hockey being so fluid and hard to track much... that does not seem too bad, does not come up much watching the game, basketball has that factor much more.

 

[Boxscore]

When the Forum closed, they made an auction, selling the famous red seat, hot-dog grill, penalty box door.

It is hard to imagine something like that for the modern arenas, for the nice items (banner, etc...) I am sure, but people paying $500 for a brick ? Of a building that changed name all the time depending on the highest bidder to place an ad on it...

Has for the micro-stats and micro-events, hockey being so fluid and hard to track much... that does not seem too bad, does not come up much watching the game, basketball has that factor much more.

I remember that. I was there and got my hands on an original blue seat. I was tempted to purchase the turnstile... which was surprisingly affordable... but the shipping from Montreal to Philly was hundreds.

 

[MadLuke]

Was it that one ?: