God Bless Canada said:There aren't many players in their prime today who warrant HHOF induction. My HHOF standards are very lofty.
God Bless Canada said:I think if a player is going to get in without some form of playoff success (not necessarily a Cup, just a good track record, like Cam Neely), they need to have either dominated the regular season for an extended period of time (a la Marcel Dionne) or done something unprecedented in the history of the game. (Witness Mike Gartner, who also struggled in the playoffs but did things in the regular season over the course of his career that nobody else, ever, has done). Playoffs are a very big deal to the HHOF voters, and for good reason, because that's the hockey that's truly important. (Dionne and Gartner would be much higher on the all-time lists if they're playoff records were better).
Selanne has never had a playoff where he stepped up his performance from the regular season, or a memorable playoff, or a playoff where he carried his team on his back. The fact that he was on mediocre teams is not an excuse, as a lot of players have been on mediocre teams, and still found a way to produce.
His international track record won't matter, as it is only used as a barometer for those who played their prime or the majority of their career outside of the NHL.
God Bless Canada said:Fedorov will get in. Even though he had several years where his production didn't match his skills, he was still excellent defensively, and his key role on three Cup champions will cement his case. Shanahan has been one of the quintessential power forwards for the last 15 years, and likely going to go down as one of the best all-round LWs ever. Again, a key player on three Cup champions, and the missing piece for Detroit. He'll get in. Joe Nieuwendyk is one of six players to win a Cup with three different teams. He was a clutch player in the playoffs, and has a Conn Smythe. Factor in his faceoff ability and leadership, and his regular season production when healthy, and he gets in. Sakic, Jagr and Forsberg, of course, are locks.
Right now, there isn't a player under 30 who is a lock to get in the HHOF. It's been a long time since we've been able to say that.
I hold Selanne in the highest regard. He was an offensive wizard with the puck in both playmaking and goal scoring roles. He had something resembling a physical game, But his playoff record and his play after 1999 will keep him out. Recchi, Roenick, Turgeon and Bondra won't get a sniff of the Hall. Sundin, Modano and Mogilny won't make it, either.
Jovanovski = Norris said:Let me throw a spin into this.
If Selanne is such a lock to make the HHOF, what about Keith Tkachuk?
God Bless Canada said:Right now, there isn't a player under 30 who is a lock to get in the HHOF. It's been a long time since we've been able to say that.
Recchi, Roenick, Turgeon and Bondra won't get a sniff of the Hall. Sundin, Modano and Mogilny won't make it, either.
Comparisons to Pierre Turgeon are usually reserved for highly-skilled players who lack intensity, consistency and a willingness to take a hit to make a play. Turgeon is likely far and away the softest player among the all-time top 50 scorers. HHOF voters look beyond the statistics, and when they do that, they'll realize that what they have is a player with immense talent who put up some eye-popping numbers, but was frail and unwilling to be involved in the physical nature of the game.Kingbobert said:umm he's getting in...
one of the greatest Finish players of all time
and i think if not mistaen the current holder of most career points of any Finish player
speaking of Fins...should people who have gone through what koivu has be considered for HHOF at the end of their carreers? (not saying koivu specifically just the whole cancer and comeback type of thing)
Also, people mentioned turgeon not making the HHOF..well 1302 points so far in 1242 games and 94 points in 105 playoff appearences...why does he not diserve consideration...he's amongst the top 50 all time scorers in NHL history
You're a tough guy to convince, I'll give you thatGod Bless Canada said:I don't care if Selanne never won a playoff series in his life. That's not the point. After all, it's hard to soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by turkeys. I care about whether or not he elevated his play in the post-season. That's something he never did. Look at the all-time greats in the history of the game. All of them elevated their play in the post-season at some point in their career, and most did it on several occasions. Name me all of the players in the HHOF who never once elevated their play in the post-season. Dionne. Gartner. Those are the two that come to mind immediately. (Tretiak and Kharlamov not included because they spent their careers in the USSR).
The bottom line is that Selanne never elevated his play from the regular season to the post-season. You can say he played at such a high level already, but a defining characteristic of greatness is being able to elevate your game to another level when the games are most important. Selanne never did that, and that will be a blight on his portfolio when his turn comes up for HHOF induction. Forget the numbers, the 13 goals in 21 games or the 33 points in 49 games overall (I know looking beyond numbers is a hard concept in today's fantasy sports-driven world), just look at his play, and the bottom line is he never elevated his play in the playoffs. He had four goals in six games in 1993. But three of those goals came in Game 3, and he struggled in the other five games. The post-season is a very big deal to Hall voters, and Selanne's abject failure to take his game to the next level is why he won't get in.
As for the argument of taking a certain number of players from each era, I strongly disagree with the concept. If there's nobody who deserves to be inducted, they shouldn't be inducted. Inducting Bondra, Recchi, Mogilny, Roenick and especially human Nerf ball Turgeon would amount to nothing more than inducting players for the sake of inducting them, and I think the HHOF has succeeded in getting away from that practice in recent years. (Clark Gillies and, to a lesser extent, Bernie Federko, excluded).
God Bless Canada said:I don't care if Selanne never won a playoff series in his life. That's not the point. After all, it's hard to soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by turkeys. I care about whether or not he elevated his play in the post-season. That's something he never did. Look at the all-time greats in the history of the game. All of them elevated their play in the post-season at some point in their career, and most did it on several occasions. Name me all of the players in the HHOF who never once elevated their play in the post-season. Dionne. Gartner. Those are the two that come to mind immediately. (Tretiak and Kharlamov not included because they spent their careers in the USSR).
The bottom line is that Selanne never elevated his play from the regular season to the post-season. You can say he played at such a high level already, but a defining characteristic of greatness is being able to elevate your game to another level when the games are most important. Selanne never did that, and that will be a blight on his portfolio when his turn comes up for HHOF induction. Forget the numbers, the 13 goals in 21 games or the 33 points in 49 games overall (I know looking beyond numbers is a hard concept in today's fantasy sports-driven world), just look at his play, and the bottom line is he never elevated his play in the playoffs. He had four goals in six games in 1993. But three of those goals came in Game 3, and he struggled in the other five games. The post-season is a very big deal to Hall voters, and Selanne's abject failure to take his game to the next level is why he won't get in.
God Bless Canada said:As for the argument of taking a certain number of players from each era, I strongly disagree with the concept. If there's nobody who deserves to be inducted, they shouldn't be inducted. Inducting Bondra, Recchi, Mogilny, Roenick and especially human Nerf ball Turgeon would amount to nothing more than inducting players for the sake of inducting them, and I think the HHOF has succeeded in getting away from that practice in recent years. (Clark Gillies and, to a lesser extent, Bernie Federko, excluded).
God Bless Canada said:Andreychuk, as I've said before, is a very interesting case. Before TBay, I would have said no, and an emphatic one at that, even though his career numbers are nice. (His 637 goals would set a new standard for players not in the Hall). But his work as a leader in Tampa cannot be overlooked. As hard as it is to believe, Andreychuk has as much to do with the organization's turn-around as anyone. That locker room would still be a fractured, dysfunctional mess if not for Andreychuk and Tim Taylor. Lecavalier would have been dealt in early 2004 if not for Andreychuk playing peacemaker between Lecavalier and Tortorella. He was the best captain in the league from 2002 to 2004. Our last memories of Andreychuk are going to be very, very good, and that will influence some votes. I still say no to Andreychuk in the HHOF, but not as fiercely as I did before. To say he's one-dimensional is to discount his leadership in TBay.
reckoning said:Selanne`s numbers are very impressive over his career, but they look lower than they are because of the dead puck era. A while back on here, somebody (I think Hockey Outsider) posted a list of the top all-time scorers with their totals adjusted for eras and Selanne finished much higher than I would have expected.
Hall of Fame? Selanne has had virtually no success of any type in the playoffs in his career. If your playoff resume is that thin, then you have to put up Marcel Dionne-type numbers in the regular season in order to overcome that and get in the Hall. He`ll also be hurt by the fact that his best season was his rookie season, making everything that came afterwards look not as impressive.
International only becomes a factor when dealing with players who spent the majority of their careers overseas (Tretiak, Kharlamov, Fetisov). Name me one player who spent the majority of their career in the NHL, was viewed as a borderline candidate for the Hall, and got the nod because of international play. It hasn't happened. In the case of Sergei Makarov, his international record hasn't got him in, either. (IMO, Makarov was a better player than Selanne, and Makarov has been passed over a mere five times).El_Loco_Avs said:What about Selanne's international achievements?
He did some amazing things.
Cam Neely was a much better hockey player than Teemu Selanne.Jarkko_Fan said:What about Cam Neely...if he gets in, then so selanne should in a heartbeat
sorry didnt see your post roshiajin
reckoning said:I`ll be surprised if Iginla doesn`t get in, but how many guys are locks before they`re 30? A lot of current locks (i.e. Belfour, Hasek, Shanahan,) weren`t considered sure-HHOF`ers at that age. How a player plays in his 30s plays a huge role. Even if you`re never the best player in the league, several consistent years at a high level will be enough. That`s why I feel Modano and Sundin are qualified for the Hall. Far more deserving than a one-dimensional player who merely accumulated points by sticking around for a long time (i.e. Andreychuk or Robitaille).
canucksfan said:Cam Neely was a much better hockey player than Teemu Selanne.
canucksfan said:Cam Neely was a much better hockey player than Teemu Selanne.