Teemu Selänne vs John Bucyk

[Ziostilon]

Both played in different eras. Even the regular seasons were shorter then.

One is already in the HHOF, the other will follow.

Who is the better player all-time?
Teemu Selänne or John Bucyk?

Click to read more...

 

[MXD]

...WuT?

BTW, Selanne SHOULD make it. But he's absolutely not a lock.

 

[Big Phil]

Selanne has all but punched his ticket for the HHOF, observe:

First Team all-star ('93, '97)
Second Team all-star ('98, '99)
1 Cup
1 Calder
Led the league in goals 3 times (a threshold impossible to ignore)
Top 10 scorer 6 times
Four 100 point campaigns (132, 109, 108, 107)
Strong career numbers


But back to the question. It is a close one. Bucyk was more physical, could hit better and was likely defensively stronger. Selanne was a better individual talent, could score without much help and later in his career has had a resurgence in the playoffs redeeming himself from earlier setbacks. My pick? Selanne

 

[Dark Shadows]

Selanne has all but punched his ticket for the HHOF, observe:

First Team all-star ('93, '97)
Second Team all-star ('98, '99)
1 Cup
1 Calder
Led the league in goals 3 times (a threshold impossible to ignore)
Top 10 scorer 6 times
Four 100 point campaigns (132, 109, 108, 107)
Strong career numbers


But back to the question. It is a close one. Bucyk was more physical, could hit better and was likely defensively stronger. Selanne was a better individual talent, could score without much help and later in his career has had a resurgence in the playoffs redeeming himself from earlier setbacks. My pick? Selanne

Was definitely defensively stronger, not likely.

I am not sure how much of a resurgence Selanne has had in the playoffs. When Anaheim won the cup, Selanne was their best regular season performer, but was overshadowed in the playoffs by Pronger, Niedermayer, Getzlaf, Pahlsson, Giguere and MacDonald, and arguably even Perry, Moen

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Was definitely defensively stronger, not likely.

Likely not stronger defensively? Defintely was.

 

[overpass]

While Bucyk was far, far, more consistent than Selanne, Selanne has at least three or four seasons better than Bucyk's best.

 

[Finnpin]

...WuT?

BTW, Selanne SHOULD make it. But he's absolutely not a lock.

LOL not a lock? What else does he have to do?

 

[quoipourquoi]

While Bucyk was far, far, more consistent than Selanne, Selanne has at least three or four seasons better than Bucyk's best.

Would you really say that though? Selanne was competing for goal-scoring titles as a 22 year-old, had surgery to repair a degenerating leg that affected him from 2000-2004, and then went back to competing for goal-scoring titles as a 36 year-old.

I think the biggest problem is that we don't have a good reading on Selanne as a playoff performer, because he only had 21 playoff games before his leg problems (13 goals and 20 points). He's always been good in best-on-best international though (Goal leader in 1992 Olympics, Point leader in 1998 Olympics, Goal and Point leader in 2006 Olympics).


As for your assessment of his play in 2007, Dark Shadows, he was overshadowed by the others (those playoffs were Getzlaf's coming out party), but he quietly put up only two fewer points than the highest scoring Duck, good for a tie for second on the team. The Duck team had great offensive depth that Spring. The year before, he led the Mighty Ducks offensively with 6 goals and 14 points in 16 games (not counting a legit backhand goal against Calgary that was called off for an early whistle). Pronger really smothered him in the Oilers series, holding him to 4 points, and that's the main reason the Mighty Ducks got knocked out.

 

[jepjepjoo]

Top5 goals:
Bucyk: 1 (2nd)
Selanne: 5 (1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd)

Top5 assists:
Bucyk: 1 (3rd)
Selanne: 1 (4th)

top5 points:
Bucyk: 1 (3rd)
Selanne: 4 (2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th)

All star selections:
Bucyk: 1st team, 2nd team
Selanne: 2x 1st team, 2x 2nd team, 1st rookie team

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Selanne had the better peak, no doubt. If he was as good in the playoffs as in the regular season, this wouldn't even be in question.

Bucyk had the longer, more consistant career. Also much better at intangibles and defense and stuff. I consider Bucyk very close to Ron Francis. Would you take Francis over Selanne?

 

[Reds4Life]

Selanne is better, better peak and could score without much help.

 

[tony d]

Going with Teemu Selanne

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Can't win with either as your best player. (Selanne makes Joe Thornton look like Maurice Richard.) And Selanne has no use as a non-marquee player.

I'd take Bucyk.

 

[overpass]

Can't win with either as your best player. (Selanne makes Joe Thornton look like Maurice Richard.) And Selanne has no use as a non-marquee player.

I'd take Bucyk.

What exactly do you mean by this? While Selanne in his prime would be the best player on most teams, surely any Cup contender would love to have a healthy Selanne on the right wing of a scoring line.

 

[jepjepjoo]

Selanne had the better peak, no doubt. If he was as good in the playoffs as in the regular season, this wouldn't even be in question.

Bucyk had the longer, more consistant career. Also much better at intangibles and defense and stuff. I consider Bucyk very close to Ron Francis. Would you take Francis over Selanne?

Their careers spanned over similar scoring eras and their playoff stats are pretty comparable(Bucyk has better stats). Also I don´t see how Bucyk had a more consistent career:

Selanne ppg:

1.57
1.06 <- achilles tendon cut
1.07 <- lockout
1.37 (trade to Anaheim)
1.40
1.18
1.43
1.08
0.99 <- trade to San Jose, knee problems
0.66 knee problems
0.78 knee problems
0.41 knee problems
lockout (reconstructive knee surgery)
1.13
1.15
0.88 (second line)
0.83 (second line)

In his 20s he was in the top20 in both goals & points with the exception of 93-94 when he was injured half a season.

92-93: 1st goals, 5th points 84gp
93-94: 51gp
94-95: 19th goals, 18th points 45gp
95-96: 17th goals, 7th points 79gp
96-97: 2nd goals, 2nd points 78gp
97-98: 1st goals, 8th points 73gp
98-99: 1st goals, 2nd points 75gp
99-00 16th goals, 5th points 79gp

The first half of 2000´s was pretty much ruined by his knee problems and San Jose´s defensive system. After the lockout he has played two full seasons:

05-06: 10th goals, 13th points
06-07: 3rd goals, 11th points

Excluding 03-04 and to a lesser extent 01-02,02-03 Selanne has been a consistant scoring threat. 01-02 he led San Jose in goals and in 02-03 he led the team in goals & points, but if you are making 9,5mil and 6,5mil you are expected to score atleast ppg even in a defensive system.

All in all thats a pretty consistant career

 

[Chased By Trolls]

Can't win with either as your best player.

I thought the Ducks just did two years ago, or atleast he was the best forward on the team.

Also internationally Finland has had good success with Selänne as their best player, even though they did come up a little short of winning it all at the last olympics.

Anyways, I never saw Bucyk play so I can't compare their actual playing styles and such, but judging from the numbers it looks like Selänne pretty much destroys Bucyk offensively in terms of peak performance, even though Bucyk did rack up more career points thanks to his impressive longevity and no lockouts or major injuries (afaik). Didn't Bucyk also play his best seasons with Espo (and Orr)? I'm guessing it's not very hard to get points playing with those two.

Was he exceptionally good at something other than scoring? Otherwise I can't see how you could take him over Selänne.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Can't win with either as your best player. (Selanne makes Joe Thornton look like Maurice Richard.)

With the added clause that Steve Rucchin be your third best player.

I've heard the Thornton comparisons by Dark Shadows before, and still, I just don't see it. Up until his leg problems, he consistently put up points in the playoffs, despite playing the Detroit Red Wings in eight of those twenty-one games (all during the Wings' nine series win streak), and the division winning 1993 Vancouver Canucks in another six games (where he scored 4 Goals and BOTH of Winnipeg's GWGs). In the only series in his prime in which his team had home ice, Selanne and the Mighty Ducks won in seven games, with Selanne scoring in Game 7.

Granted, none of this makes him a playoff legend, it at least makes his prime playoff resume more adequate than Joe Thornton's. If people rag on Thornton too much, it is because he couldn't put up a single point in a seven game upset to the Montreal Canadiens in 2004. How that is Richardian compared to Selanne, I don't know. You would have to judge Selanne strictly by his play with the San Jose Sharks and Colorado Avalanche to draw that conclusion, and as evidenced by his resurgence since leg surgery, that was mostly due to the fact that one leg was over an inch longer than the other.

In his career, Selanne has played on two division winners: The 2002 San Jose Sharks and the 2007 Anaheim Ducks. The Ducks won the Cup and the Sharks lost to a higher seed. As a result, only two of Selanne's teams have ever been upset by a lower seed: The 2006 Mighty Ducks (who, as a 6th Seed, lost to an 8th Seed) and the 2008 Anaheim Ducks (who, as a 4th Seed, lost to a 5th Seed). By contrast, his teams have upset the 2006 Calgary Flames, 2007 Detroit Red Wings, and 2009 San Jose Sharks. His teams pretty much won what they deserved to have won and lost what they deserved to have lost- by regular season standards.

Thornton, as a Bruin, traded upsets with the Hurricanes and Sabres in 1999 (all were about equal, anyway), before losing to the Canadiens as a #1 Seed in 2002 and as a #2 Seed in 2004. As a Shark, he lost to the #8 Seed in 2006 and 2009, and to the #5 Seed in 2008. Oddly enough, every low seed that upset Selanne's teams ALSO upset Thornton's team in the same year. The difference is, of course, that Selanne's teams weren't upset by an additional four teams, and they had three upsets themselves to Thornton's teams' one (over a Southeast team with fewer points).


I've probably read to much into a flip comment and strayed too far from Bucyk, but I hope this erases some of the stigma about Selanne's playoffs, at least relative to Thornton's.

 

[jepjepjoo]

Didn't Bucyk also play his best seasons with Espo (and Orr)? I'm guessing it's not very hard to get points playing with those two.

Before the 70-71 his career high in points was 69 points. That season 4 Bruins scored over 100 points (Esposito 152, Orr 139, Bucyk 116, Hodge 105). Bucyk had all his 70+ points seasons after the age of 35.

Also internationally Finland has had good success with Selänne as their best player, even though they did come up a little short of winning it all at the last olympics.

His olympic stats are pretty impressive: 25gp 20g 15a 35p (1st in scoring in Nagano and Torino)

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

I see Bucyk as his generations Ron Francis. A very good player for a long time, but never one of the league's elite, and able to compile some very nice career stats. Selanne, IMO, did hit elite status at certaing points in his career.

 

[Big Phil]

Was definitely defensively stronger, not likely.

I am not sure how much of a resurgence Selanne has had in the playoffs. When Anaheim won the cup, Selanne was their best regular season performer, but was overshadowed in the playoffs by Pronger, Niedermayer, Getzlaf, Pahlsson, Giguere and MacDonald, and arguably even Perry, Moen

Pre-lockout yes. He was Dionne-ish in the playoffs. But once 2006 hit he redeemed himself a bit. He threw together back to back 90 and 94 points seasons and in the playoffs he stepped up a bit more than usual:

2006 14 points in 16 games
2007 15 points in 21 games (Cup win)

Reminiscent in a way of how Jean Ratelle stepped up in the playoffs later in his career with Boston after having some less than stellar springs with NYR. Plus Selanne scored the biggest goal in Ducks history (OT win in Game #5 vs. Detroit in '07). There may have been a good supporting cast that year in Anaheim but being a nice part of it at age 37 helps

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

What exactly do you mean by this? While Selanne in his prime would be the best player on most teams, surely any Cup contender would love to have a healthy Selanne on the right wing of a scoring line.

Exactly, he'd be the top guy because of his talent, then he'd let the team down in the playoffs and having your marquee player faulter makes a championship near impossible.

I thought the Ducks just did two years ago, or atleast he was the best forward on the team.

Also internationally Finland has had good success with Selänne as their best player, even though they did come up a little short of winning it all at the last olympics.

Anyways, I never saw Bucyk play so I can't compare their actual playing styles and such, but judging from the numbers it looks like Selänne pretty much destroys Bucyk offensively in terms of peak performance, even though Bucyk did rack up more career points thanks to his impressive longevity and no lockouts or major injuries (afaik). Didn't Bucyk also play his best seasons with Espo (and Orr)? I'm guessing it's not very hard to get points playing with those two.

Was he exceptionally good at something other than scoring? Otherwise I can't see how you could take him over Selänne.

The Ducks won in spite of Selanne because their secondline emerged as an elite line that playoff.

I'm not sure if Bucyk was exceptionally good at other aspects. But. He was one of the most well rounded players in history. If he's your #2 forward, that's a great position to be in.

With the added clause that Steve Rucchin be your third best player.

I've heard the Thornton comparisons by Dark Shadows before, and still, I just don't see it. Up until his leg problems, he consistently put up points in the playoffs, despite playing the Detroit Red Wings in eight of those twenty-one games (all during the Wings' nine series win streak), and the division winning 1993 Vancouver Canucks in another six games (where he scored 4 Goals and BOTH of Winnipeg's GWGs). In the only series in his prime in which his team had home ice, Selanne and the Mighty Ducks won in seven games, with Selanne scoring in Game 7.

Granted, none of this makes him a playoff legend, it at least makes his prime playoff resume more adequate than Joe Thornton's. If people rag on Thornton too much, it is because he couldn't put up a single point in a seven game upset to the Montreal Canadiens in 2004. How that is Richardian compared to Selanne, I don't know. You would have to judge Selanne strictly by his play with the San Jose Sharks and Colorado Avalanche to draw that conclusion, and as evidenced by his resurgence since leg surgery, that was mostly due to the fact that one leg was over an inch longer than the other.

In his career, Selanne has played on two division winners: The 2002 San Jose Sharks and the 2007 Anaheim Ducks. The Ducks won the Cup and the Sharks lost to a higher seed. As a result, only two of Selanne's teams have ever been upset by a lower seed: The 2006 Mighty Ducks (who, as a 6th Seed, lost to an 8th Seed) and the 2008 Anaheim Ducks (who, as a 4th Seed, lost to a 5th Seed). By contrast, his teams have upset the 2006 Calgary Flames, 2007 Detroit Red Wings, and 2009 San Jose Sharks. His teams pretty much won what they deserved to have won and lost what they deserved to have lost- by regular season standards.

Thornton, as a Bruin, traded upsets with the Hurricanes and Sabres in 1999 (all were about equal, anyway), before losing to the Canadiens as a #1 Seed in 2002 and as a #2 Seed in 2004. As a Shark, he lost to the #8 Seed in 2006 and 2009, and to the #5 Seed in 2008. Oddly enough, every low seed that upset Selanne's teams ALSO upset Thornton's team in the same year. The difference is, of course, that Selanne's teams weren't upset by an additional four teams, and they had three upsets themselves to Thornton's teams' one (over a Southeast team with fewer points).


I've probably read to much into a flip comment and strayed too far from Bucyk, but I hope this erases some of the stigma about Selanne's playoffs, at least relative to Thornton's.

I am exaggerating. But Selanne's step down in the post-season is quite possibly the most severe in history.

Regular season: 1.063 ppg
Post season: 0.686 ppg

Thornton:
1.010 vs 0.697

Dionne:
1.314 vs 0.918

So explain to me how Selanne isn't just like Thronton, a failure as an offensive leader. Because all I'm seeing is failure to lead.

 

[jepjepjoo]

The Ducks won in spite of Selanne because their secondline emerged as an elite line that playoff.

So Getzlaf with 17p, Perry with 15p and Penner with 8p were elite, but Selanne with 15p was somehow just pure crap?

 

[overpass]

Would you really say that though? Selanne was competing for goal-scoring titles as a 22 year-old, had surgery to repair a degenerating leg that affected him from 2000-2004, and then went back to competing for goal-scoring titles as a 36 year-old.

I wasn't slamming Selanne, it's no shame to be less consistent than John Bucyk. Nobody was more consistent than Bucyk.

Exactly, he'd be the top guy because of his talent, then he'd let the team down in the playoffs and having your marquee player faulter makes a championship near impossible.

So you're saying Selanne is no use as a non-marquee player...because he's a marquee player?

And presumably you'd rather have Bucyk...because he's not as good?

 

[Chased By Trolls]

So explain to me how Selanne isn't just like Thronton, a failure as an offensive leader. Because all I'm seeing is failure to lead.

That's a funny quote about a player who lead the olympics in scoring not once but twice.

Also, Selänne did lead the team in goals in the playoffs each time they got there in the nineties. Sure, he had some less impressive seasons with the Sharks and the Avs when he playing on one leg and had lost his speed (which also hurts his career ppg), but after he had the surgery he came back and lead the Mighty Ducks in postseason scoring in 05-06 and was second on the team when they won the Cup. Your hatred for him really seems rather irrational.

 

[MXD]

LOL not a lock? What else does he have to do?

Well...

He simply needed to have a better career than he did. We're talking about Teemu Selanne, not Joe Sakic or Jaromir Jagr here.