Teams used to carry 3 goalies... why?

SealsFan

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May 3, 2009
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...pretty much. Take yer Seals for example.
over 10years saw a parade through the crease;

Lyle Carter
Bob Champoux
Marv Edwards
Charlie Hodge
Gary Kurt
Gilles Meloche
Gary Simmons
Gary Smith
Bob Sneddon
Ted Tucker
and Chris Worthy,

Maybe not the best example. Gary Smith was the starter the first 4 seasons with Charlie Hodge backing him up mostly, with Worthy backup for one season. Once Meloche came aboard he was the starter, and apart from his rookie year with Kurt and Carter backing him up, it was Meloche/Edwards, then Meloche/Simmons. 73/74 was an anomaly because both Meloche and Edwards got injured and career minor-leaguers Champoux and Tucker were called up. But I don't see where the Seals were rotating three goalies to try to find one who would stick, unlike some of the other teams mentioned. They were pretty much a 2-goalie team unless injuries forced more into the picture.
 
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Hoser

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Maybe not the best example of a team that carried three goalies who shared started duties relatively equally, but they often carried three goalies. The starter stayed relatively constant (Hodge in '67-'68, Smith from '68 to '71, Meloche from '71 to the Barons-North Stars merger of '78) but the backup position was a revolving door of mostly minor-leaguers until Gary Simmons was acquired in '74.

The backup in '67-'68 was Smith.

The backups in '68-'69 were Hodge and Chris Worthy. Fred Glover believed bigger = better and poor Charlie Hodge was a paltry 5'6", 150 lbs. They carried all three goalies until later in the season when Hodge was demoted to the Canucks of the WHL.

Hodge was backup in '69-'70; Worthy made one appearance.

In 1970 Hodge was selected in the expansion draft by the Canucks so Worthy got the job, but he had to battle with farmhand Bob Sneddon for it.

In '71 they got rid of both Sneddon and Worthy and brought in Gary Kurt and Lyle Carter. Neither asserted themselves and were gone: Carter was demoted and Kurt defected to the WHA. They brought in Marv Edwards in 1972; by then he was 37 years old.

Edwards played backup in '72-'73 and '73-'74, and yes, when both he and Meloche were injured Ted Tucker and Bob Champoux were pressed into action in the latter season. Otherwise Meloche and Edwards were the top two goalies.

In '74 they acquired Gary Simmons but they kept Marv Edwards on the roster. He didn't see any playing time and retired in '75 to take over coaching the Seals' farm team in '75-'76 and '76-'77, taking over for new Seals coach Jack Evans.

Simmons and Meloche were the only two goalies used until the team moved to Cleveland. In the first season in Cleveland Simmons was dealt to L.A. and Gary Edwards came in return. Edwards and Meloche played out the rest of the team's time in Cleveland (and the two of them took Pete LoPresti and Paul Harrison's jobs in Minnesota when the teams merged!).
 

DJ Man

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Chicago had a lot of trouble getting a decent backup for Esposito, and he was usually overworked. Had they dumped Smith and Desjardins and kept Meloche, the Hawks would have had an impressive tandem for several years and a ready successor.
 

Hoser

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Smith was pretty good; he and Esposito shared the Vezina Trophy in '72. They might have fared better had they held on to either one of Smith or Desjardins but they were willing to give up Smith for Dale Tallon (then a 23-year-old who had played in two All-Star games entering only his fourth year) and lost Desjardins (who was also pretty good; you might recall he was the goalie who led the Sabres to the finals in 1975, not Roger Crozier) in the '72 Expansion Draft. It's quite conceivable they could have lost Meloche in '72 too if not for having moved him to California a year earlier.

I don't think the Hawks had troubles getting good backups for Esposito: they had trouble keeping them.
 
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Mayor Bee

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The reason for carrying 3 goalies is simple: because it could be done.

The reason no one does it any more is also simple: because the 1994-95 lockout saw a reduction in the active roster from 25 to 24, then down to 23 in time for the 1999-00 season. Given the choice between carrying three goalies or being able to have a spare defenseman or forward, everyone chose the latter.
 

MS

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The reason for carrying 3 goalies is simple: because it could be done.

The reason no one does it any more is also simple: because the 1994-95 lockout saw a reduction in the active roster from 25 to 24, then down to 23 in time for the 1999-00 season. Given the choice between carrying three goalies or being able to have a spare defenseman or forward, everyone chose the latter.

Bingo.

It happens the odd time (Buffalo carried Mika Noronen around for most of the 2005-06 season, Detroit carried Kevin Hodson for most of one year in the late 1990s) but when you're only allowed 3 extra bodies on the roster past the 20 you dress every night, carrying an extra goalie makes zero sense. Only time it happens if a team is really deep in net and has a prime prospect they don't want to expose to waivers.

If there was a 28 man roster limit, loads of teams would be carrying 3 goalies.
 

Beerfish

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The threesome I remember back when I was a young and Leaf fan was Doug Favelle, Dunc Wilson and Eddie Johnston.
 

canuckster19

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The reason for carrying 3 goalies is simple: because it could be done.

The reason no one does it any more is also simple: because the 1994-95 lockout saw a reduction in the active roster from 25 to 24, then down to 23 in time for the 1999-00 season. Given the choice between carrying three goalies or being able to have a spare defenseman or forward, everyone chose the latter.

Sorry to bring up an old thread but I hoped to have a sort of debate...

How common do you think it would be for teams to carry 3 goalies if a 24th roster spot was open solely for an optional third goalie?
 

Bear of Bad News

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Sorry to bring up an old thread but I hoped to have a sort of debate...

How common do you think it would be for teams to carry 3 goalies if a 24th roster spot was open solely for an optional third goalie?

I don't think it would happen any more than it happens now.
 

Killion

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How common do you think it would be for teams to carry 3 goalies if a 24th roster spot was open solely for an optional third goalie?

I think actually you might want to reconsider the premise of your question canuckster as carrying 3 goalies is problematical in as much as a good goalie requires a lot of starts & playing time in order to stay sharp, get into a groove. Back-ups can struggle and in some cases not because their inferior to the starter but because they just dont get enough consistent game after game starts. Carrying a 3rd goalie redundant, however, it was at one time, first expansion through the early 70's practised by several teams, the Blues with the ageing Hall or Plante getting strings, short bursts then rested, the Leafs as well with variously Bruce Gamble & others sandwiched in between Sawchuk & Bower, Plante again & so on. Bottom line is goalies need to play a lot, the majority of a regular seasons schedule in order to stay sharp. 3rd stringer like a 5th wheel. Better he should go somewhere & actually play.
 

hockeydude1

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I don't see it happening. If your gonna pay big bucks for someone like Luongo for example. You better make him play. If you have 3 goalies playing equal time, than its a big waste. Sure you can argue that resting your goalie would be good. However, how reliable are the other two goalies going to be? And how much resting before the starter (ex: luongo) gets frustrated about not getting minutes.
 

canuckster19

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I don't see it happening. If your gonna pay big bucks for someone like Luongo for example. You better make him play. If you have 3 goalies playing equal time, than its a big waste. Sure you can argue that resting your goalie would be good. However, how reliable are the other two goalies going to be? And how much resting before the starter (ex: luongo) gets frustrated about not getting minutes.

I'm not saying having 3 rotating goalies is the better choice, I'm wondering if there are examples of where it might be useful to some teams in todays game who maybe don't have a clear #1 goalie.
 

Bear of Bad News

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I'm not saying having 3 rotating goalies is the better choice, I'm wondering if there are examples of where it might be useful to some teams in todays game who maybe don't have a clear #1 goalie.

You asked how common it would be.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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I'm not saying having 3 rotating goalies is the better choice, I'm wondering if there are examples of where it might be useful to some teams in todays game who maybe don't have a clear #1 goalie.

Only is as much as lets say in training camp you think youve got a number one however its fairly equal between two of them, a 3rd showing promise but not quite ready for Prime Time. You'd hope one of the top 2 wins the starting position early, not have to concern yourself thereafter. You want one guy, not 2 or God forbid 3 with a revolving door in the crease as its rather important to overall team chemistry & confidence that they can rely upon the #1 starter. Though most goalies today play the same style essentially, the difference not as dramatic as they once were requiring some adjustments by the team out front, there are enough differences, certain nuances, adjustments still being need to be made. Additionally, a good goalie will build a rapport, a certain understanding with his defenceman. That dynamic forever changing with a 3 goalie system or approach. Further, it adds extra pressure to each of the goalies if theres no clear starter. None of them feel comfortable or at ease, knowing that if they have a bad game could sit for weeks, months. Not unusual in fact for starters & backups to not exactly get along, be fast friends. Its enough of a competitive situation in some cases with 2 let alone 3 goalies. Arguable as well if theres even enough talent & coaching savvy going around to add 30 to the mix. I highly doubt that there is.
 

Big Phil

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Even 1969 had Vachon, Worsley and Esposito. Technically, Esposito's name is on the Cup that year, although he only played 13 games, and no postseason play.

I was going to also say that a goalie was more likely to get hurt with the shoddy equipment (or even no masks) but then remembered that in the O6 era it was common for a goalie to play every game with no back up in sight.
 

Killion

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...in the O6 era it was common for a goalie to play every game with no back up in sight.

Ya, up until the early 60's. The 66-67 Stanley Cup Winning Leafs were a little unusual in that regard though, as they did have 3 mainstay goalies splitting the Regular Season & Playoffs:

Bower 27G
Sawchuk 28G
Bruce Gamble 23G
Gary Smith 2G

Gamble the following season the main starter, couple of years later when theyd acquired Plante & Parent, Bruce Gambles at 23 with Parent via trade for Gamble receiving 18, Plante 40... Murray McLachlan 2 starts before embarking on a solo music career, charting with Farmers Song and Down by the Henry Moore. :D
 

cujoflutie

Registered User
I actually think some teams would use the 3rd goaltender more often if rules permitted. Consider this classic scenario;

team plays their #2 guy on the first of back to back nights with the intention of starting their #1 guy the next night. Team gets shelled. How often do you see them pull the #2 guy for the #1 guy? Sometimes they will if the #2 guy is playing badly and the game is within reach but rarely do you see the #1 guy sent in for mop up minutes.

Two cases I remember of backups being left out to dry; late in his Philly tenure, Ken Hitchock left Robert Esche in for a 9-0 loss (Hitch and Esche didn't get along, some people felt it was for spite). And of course the night Darryl Sittler scored 10 points, goalie Dave Reese played the entire game (his final of his career) due to the team playing the next night.


Hasek wasn't dressing for games he wasn't starting late in his career so the Wings usually had to use a 3rd goalie to backup Osgood.

I don't think a team would use a good prospect as the 3rd string in lieu of sending them to the AHL (as it is some choose to have them as #1 for the AHL team than #2 with the big club) but I could see them using some veterans as 3rd string or some guys whom they don't see starter potential.



Also to add to the discussion, Toronto did start the 2006-07 season with Raycroft, Aubin, and Tellqvist on the roster. Tellqvist played one game before being traded.
 

crump

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In the 1973-74 season, Toronto coach Red Kelly had three goalies (Doug Favell, Eddie Johnston and Dunc Wilson) and for the first 40-50 games of the season he literally had them take turns starting games. Each goalie would start every third game, regardless of how they played previously. One of them was quoted in a newspaper article as saying that they hated it. If they had a great game and felt hot, they'd have to wait a week for their next start; and if they had a bad game they'd be stuck dwelling on it for a week before their next start.

Yes I remember that season. Leafs were always looking for the next Bower, Sawchuk or Plante to anchor the net. I think they were a little impatient, then Palmateer sort of took the bull by the horns. The thing is, they had Parent for a season and a half and traded him back to the Flyers. Hindsight I guess.
 

Doctor No

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In the 1973-74 season, Toronto coach Red Kelly had three goalies (Doug Favell, Eddie Johnston and Dunc Wilson) and for the first 40-50 games of the season he literally had them take turns starting games. Each goalie would start every third game, regardless of how they played previously. One of them was quoted in a newspaper article as saying that they hated it. If they had a great game and felt hot, they'd have to wait a week for their next start; and if they had a bad game they'd be stuck dwelling on it for a week before their next start.

Here are the game logs for that season - it's a beautiful pattern if you like patterns:

1973-1974 Toronto Maple Leafs Goaltender Game-by-Game Performance

Wilson got a back-to-back nights start on December 30 (that "belonged" to Johnston), which ruined the pattern, but then it started up again until the end of February when Favell took the reins.
 
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Iron Mike Sharpe

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The absence of quality goalies may be because many minor league programs in Canada were training small boys to be goalies. Often, the smallest kid was put in net. Technically, they might have been solid, but size stops a lot of pucks. In the mid to late 80's, the Jets had a number of goalies that were short and skinny. Alain Chevrier was 5'8" 180 lbs, Pokey Reddick was 5'8" 170, Lindsey Middlebrook 5'7" 170, Pierre Hamel 5'9" 170 and Daniel Berthiaume 5'9" 155. Bodies like this aren't made to handle 60+ games. With forwards and defense men getting bigger, faster and shooting harder, goalies with this frame were over matched. The bob and weave influence of the European game also challenged their lateral movement, which was not the forte of Canadian trained goalies at the time. Now, its difficult to find a goalie under 6'1" 200 lbs.

Yep, this is the truth.

The early 80s was also the apex of the more acrobatic form of standup style, partially due to the smaller size of the goalies: this was a time of flopping & diving, skating wayyy out to cut off the angle, skating into the corners & behind the net, & getting clobbered all the time. It was a style more prone to injury & it required more recharging time. The three goalie teams were usually two-goalie tandems with injury replacements sometimes ending up playing as many games as a backup does today. Nowadays the goalies are stapled to the spot in their nets & can pace themselves better over the season. Also, for the 82-83 season, the NHL expanded the roster size from 17 to 18 skaters, which helped create a seismic shift in the way the game was played, as teams could roll equal 4F 3D lines; Flyers revolutionized short shifts because they had the depth to roll 4-3 equal lines. A lot of players were phased out by that within a couple of years & replaced by players who could handle the new pacing, & the butterfly & playing deeper back into the net started to become a stronger strain in goaltending style, & goalies who didn't adjust got left behind.

Since the OP mentions Brodeur-Caprice-McLean, I'll explain the 3-goalie rotation for the Canucks through the Brodeur era. Brodeur, by the way, was 5'7" & epitomized the style I mentioned above. He was pudgy, especially after his injury in 83-84, & he had a tendency to skate out even further than most goalies to cut off the angle. He'd often get picked off by snipers on his glove side when he did that (Bossy & Potvin made mincemeat of him in the 82 Finals) & when Roger Neilson's crease-clearing army disappeared, he was exposed as a goalie who always flopped, he could be drawn down on the blocker side & get killed on rebounds & garbage goals. When he bulked up & lost his speed he was toast as a starter, but after the 82 run the Canucks re-signed him to a big, fat long-term contract that came back to haunt them later on when no team in the league wanted to touch Brodeur.

In 79-80, rookie Glen Hanlon won the starting job for the Canucks & was touted as the goalie of the future for the team, with an .883 over 57 games his first season. But he separated his shoulder & kept reinjuring it through the 80-81 season, so Brodeur emerged as the starter. The Canucks had picked him up in the offseason from the Isles - he was third string behind Billy Smith & Chico Resch & spent the year in the AHL after being a veteran starter in the WHA for several years. He was 28 when he joined the Canucks. Gary Bromley replaced Hanlon to backup Brodeur while Hanlon was out.

In 81-82, Brodeur was playing much better than Hanlon, so the Canucks basically gave up on him at this point & shipped him off to St. Louis & got 5'10" 165-lb Rick Heinz in return as part of a package, who never really showed much of anything while in a Canucks uniform.

82-83 Canucks dealt for veteran John Garrett to back up Brodeur, because he was being backed up by career minor leaguer Ken Ellacott. Garrett impressed immediately because he replaced the injured Brodeur in the All-Star Game & won a three-star selection. In the meantime, Canucks junior prospect Caprice impressed as the backup helping backstop Canada to a gold medal (winning his only 3 starts) at the World Juniors that year.

83-84, Brodeur went down to injury, but Caprice badly outplayed Garrett that year & won the starter's job late in the season while Brodeur was down: in 19 games, he went 3.39 & .882, compared to Garrett's .851 & 4.10 in 29. Brodeur returned in time for the playoffs, relegating Caprice to the press box.

84-85 - big drama year: Brodeur showed up to training camp overweight, & new coach Bill LaForge - the worst, most disastrous, destructive coach in NHL history, bounced Brodeur to Fredericton, & I don't think he ever got over the humiliation, the already moody Brodeur became more bitter and cantankerous after this. The young & green Caprice was prematurely thrust into the starter position with the badly declining Garrett backing him up & a coach the entire team hated from the get-go. Poor Caprice was chewed up by teams like the Oilers that season, & after LaForge was canned Harry Neale kissed & made-up with Brodeur & let him take the barrage the rest of the season, the Canucks' worst. Caprice was never really the same after the LaForge experience: the flashes of talent he showed at the World Juniors & the 83-84 season never really returned.

85-86 & 86-87, Brodeur continued as starter with Caprice as backup, & new prospect Wendell Young pushed for Caprice's job. The aging, pudgy, moody Brodeur was among the worst starters in the league, but he was protected somewhat by defensive-minded coach Tom Watt.

87-88 regime change with Pat Quinn in charge, he finally remedied the disastrous goaltending situation in Vancouver by dealing Brodeur to the Whalers for Steve Weeks & by picking up Kirk McLean from the Devils, which essentially finally put Caprice out of a job. Captain Kirk with Weeks as a solid backup with Troy Gamble as the up and coming prospect was arguably the strongest group of goaltenders the Canucks had ever had in their history.

Canucks never intended for there to ever be anything but a starter + backup, but their ongoing goaltending woes usually meant a third guy was playing a lot, just like a lot of teams of that era.
 

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Oh, yeah, quick Caprice anecdote popped into my head:

went to a Canucks game in February or March of 87, if I recall correctly, with the Canucks giving up 7 goals in a devastating loss to the Capitals. After the game, we saw Pat Quinn go into the Canucks' dressing room while he was under suspension from & in dispute with the NHL over his attempted move from the Kings. I'll never forget that moment because the first time I ever saw him in person he just seemed like the largest human being I had ever seen, he just had this aura about him, & I was someone who went to wrestling matches. Anyway, as we were leaving, we saw Frank Caprice outside in the parking lot, so I walked over to him with my game program & asked him to sign it. In a great pique of irony & humor after being shelled in the game, instead of signing his picture, he signed the hot dog in the adjacent ad.
 
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The Panther

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NHL 'goalie culture' is so strange to me. It seemed like an arcane position for decades, populated by weirdos and basket-cases. Arguably the most important position on the club, it seemed to be filled by less athletic players. The one position certainly requiring size, it seemed (as Le Blonde Demon mentioned upthread) to be populated, in the 70s/80s anyway, by the smallest guys on the team (Dryden, Burke, Hextall, as exceptions). It was considered bizarre in the early-80s for a goalie to start more than about 50 games, and then fifteen years later it was considered bizarre to have 2 'starting' goaltenders... as if that's a bad thing! The 'butterfly' style was laughed at by commentators and hockey observers in the mid-80s, and then a dozen years later it was almost mandatory for every new goalie to play the butterfly style.

In short, it appears to be a position for which the powerful coaches and managers in hockey had no idea what to do with for decades.


By the way, does anybody know what NHL team played the highest number of goalies in one single season?
 

Hoser

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By the way, does anybody know what NHL team played the highest number of goalies in one single season?

The record is seven, held by the '89-'90 Nordiques (Ron Tugnutt, Greg Millen, Scott Gordon, Sergei Mylnikov, Mario Brunetta, Stephane Fiset and John Tanner), '02-'03 Blues (Brent Johnson, Freddie Brathwaite, Chris Osgood, Curtis Sanford, Tom Barrasso, Reinhard Divis and Cody Rudkowsky) and '07-'08 Kings (Jason LaBarbera, J-S Aubin, Erik Ersberg, Dan Cloutier, Jonathan Bernier, Jonathan Quick and Danny Taylor).

EDIT: As an aside, the '13-'14 Sabres had six goalies play (Ryan Miller, Jhonas Enroth, Matt Hackett, Nathan Lieuwen, Connor Knapp and Michal Neuvirth), but dressed another three who didn't see any game action, to break the record for most goalies dressed in a season (9):

- Jaroslav Halak, who was dealt to the Sabres for Miller on Feb. 28, 2014 and traded away to the Capitals a week later,
- Andrey Makarov, who backed up Hackett on April 8 and 10, and,
- Ryan Vinz, an emergency goalie who backed up Enroth on the day the Miller/Halak trade happened; the Sabres didn't have time to get Halak to the game nor to get Hackett called up from Rochester
 
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The Panther

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Thanks, you Hoser!

2779e79d410e4fe6fee55c001e38a5bc.jpg
 

ShelbyZ

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Hasek wasn't dressing for games he wasn't starting late in his career so the Wings usually had to use a 3rd goalie to backup Osgood.

While it's true the Red Wings carried 3 goalies at times for a couple of seasons during Haseks couple of stops in Detroit, it had less to do with Haseks age and more to do with factors concerning that 3rd (or 1st or 2nd?) goalie:

-03/04: The Cujo/Hasek/Legace debacle that likely needs no explanation. However, since they tried pretty hard to get down to Hasek and Legace they weren't worried about Haseks age until he ended up done for the season

-06/07: The Red Wings carried Hasek, Osgood and Joey MacDonald. The Red Wings decided they wanted to cut down on Haseks practice time, didn't want him playing back to back games, and didn't want him to enter games cold if Osgood went down, so he sat in the press box when Osgood started which meant MacDonald sat on the bench. However, the situation had more to do with MacDonald than Hasek. MacDonald had been a solid G prospect in the AHL during and in the two season prior to the lockout, but had an off year after recovering from a back injury. Now subject to waivers, the Wings were worried they might lose him on waivers based on those better seasons and weren't sure what they had in him yet, but they also didn't have room in GR with Jimmy Howard entering his 2nd pro year and 25YO Stefan Liv coming over from Europe. The Wings had some room on their roster after Greg Johnson had his heart issue and retired later in the summer, so they basically told MacDonald he'd have that spot if he had a good camp.

Eventually, MacDonald was waived and lost, and Hasek went back to riding the pine if he wasn't starting for the rest of that season and the next season, which was his last in the NHL.

---

Closer to the topic of the thread, what other somewhat recent teams carried 3 healthy goalies for a long period of time and why?

Of the top of my head:

-Previously mentioned 06/07 Red Wings

-1996-97 Red Wings - Vernon/Osgood/Hodson - Front office (Ken Holland especially) was high on Kevin Hodson and didn't want to lose him on waivers. They also probably wanted a good excuse to dump off Vernon as he wasn't exactly the front offices favorite player...

-1998-99 Red Wings - Osgood/Maracle/Hodson and then Osgood/Ranford/Maracle - Maracle was now subject to waivers. He beat out Hodson for the #2 job, but they didn't want to lose Hodson for nothing and wouldn't move him unless they got a 3rd rounder. Eventually they traded him to Tampa in the Wendel Clark deal. They then acquired Ranford from Tampa as an insurance policy for the 99 playoffs and to give him a shot to earn the back up job for 99-00 since they basically already knew they were going to lose Maracle to Atlanta in the expansion draft.

-05/06 Oilers: I don't think Markkanen, Conklin or Morrison were all on the roster at the same time, but they ended the season with Roloson at #1 and Conklin and Markkanen rotating at #2.

-05/06 Sabres - Miller/Biron/Noronen - Miller basically leap frogged both once highly touted goalies Biron and Noronen, which made Noronen a lame duck until he was traded to the Canucks at the deadline.

-16/17 Islanders - Greiss/Halak/Berube - They didn't want to lose Berube on waivers.
 

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