I remember Brad Richards saying that playing under Torts was like being in a cult. You either played the way he wanted or you did not play. That went for everyone who was on the roster.
Team toughness
- Thread starter dumpin
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Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Little bit of both.
Though watching Kreider get neutered makes me lean towards a lot of it being an AV thing.
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
Exactly—especially when you consider how much UFA money has been spent on bottom sixers.
effen
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- Feb 3, 2018
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Then you stopped watching.
After I think the Vesey hit the Rangers overcame their coaching and decided they were getting punked and treated like pieces of shit.
EVERYONE was drilling Preds at that point because it was personal and they were trying to injure them.
You saw McDonagh, after months of gently pressing guys to the boards, creaming people.
Zucc rocket launched a Predator defenseman into Rinne with one hand and the guy came an inch or two away from having his windpipe crushed against the crossbar.
At that point the Preds VERY clearly stopped hitting or doing anything because they had a future and didn't want to get their guys hurt.
effen
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WRT coaching, the team seemed to do the worst of both worlds, turning away from productive hits at ~every opportunity while kinda gently 'finishing' checks on guys against the boards a full second or two after the puck was already gone.
1000% thats on the coach, no other team played that way.
1000% thats on the coach, no other team played that way.
I don't think I can pin Kreider's loss of aggression on AV. It seemed to me like every time he was involved in an "incident," he would immediately lose the edge. And then he'd slowly work back towards it until something else happened, and then it was like hitting the reset button. That to me seems like the player himself was concerned about fines, suspensions or hurting other guys more so than the coach changing his game. I just think Kreider let the incidents get to him.
Captain Monglobster
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- Nov 9, 2005
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The 2014 team went as it far as it did because it still had that mental and physical toughness left over from the Torts era. You dont need guys like Colton Orr anymore, as much as I would love to have him in his prime again. Like others have said you need an organizational identity that promotes sticking up for your teammates.
Im tired of seeing our goalie and Captain get run with no repercussions. Taking a penalty in situations like that usually end up in a successful PK. No I dont have fancy stats to back that up, too bad.
Glad that AV is gone and yes I do blame him for the team turning charmin soft, just look at his Canucks teams getting smacked around by the Bruins. But I digress, this team needs to get back to the combination of speed and toughness it used to have, and that teams like PIT, VGK, and the Caps have. You dont need a team full of Lucics and Max Domis, you just need an organizational mentality that doesnt take shit from anyone, ever.
Im tired of seeing our goalie and Captain get run with no repercussions. Taking a penalty in situations like that usually end up in a successful PK. No I dont have fancy stats to back that up, too bad.
Glad that AV is gone and yes I do blame him for the team turning charmin soft, just look at his Canucks teams getting smacked around by the Bruins. But I digress, this team needs to get back to the combination of speed and toughness it used to have, and that teams like PIT, VGK, and the Caps have. You dont need a team full of Lucics and Max Domis, you just need an organizational mentality that doesnt take shit from anyone, ever.
Captain Monglobster
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With Kreider i feel like a different coach would have led him through those incidents letting him know its ok to play on the edge, thats right where you want to be. I doubt that was the message from AV.
eco's bones
Registered User
To be honest I don't think the Rangers have all that many players who take a direct route to their target on a consistent all the time basis. Jesper Fast does and it shouldn't surprise that he also led the team in hits. Is it any wonder he's won the Player's Player award 3 years in a row? or why he was the guy who got an A after the trade deadline?....moved to the top line? His teammates know he is for real is why. He doesn't cheat--he plays the right way. Only 4 guys on our team went over 100 hits last year and one of them spent half the season in Nashville. The Rangers were a non-physical team pretty much the entire year. To me it's an issue. It's not just the non-fighting---they didn't back each other up very well and there was very rarely a hard forecheck going on and they didn't get physical with the opposition nearly enough. A team is not going to play well when you have players cheating on direct routes to targets and it happened all the time last year. The Rangers were an easy team to play against. AV IMO is a chief culprit in that. Leaders like McDonagh, Nash and Staal--guys who wear the letter bear some responsibility too.
Captain Monglobster
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NYR Viper
Registered User
That was pretty much his first game with the Rangers. That game was directly after the previous game with Philly where they were taking liberties on Jagr and others. That stopped after that fight.
That moment exercised years (decades) of demons regarding Rangers/Philly.
eco's bones
Registered User
It's an interesting article. Not sure though I would want to bring in Scott Hartnell. Two/three years ago I thought it wouldn't be bad but 36 is really up there in age.
I've always liked Antoine Roussel--keeping in mind that when it comes to a fight--he fights well but he's no heavyweight. Don't expect him to win against Tom Wilson, Wayne Simmonds, Matt Martin or Adam McQuaid or Zdeno Chara. He's a pain in the ass though. He will pick and target certain players in any particular game and make their day a misery. He's rough and ornery and he's also a legit 3rd/4th line player as in if he didn't do all that extra-curricular stuff he'd probably still be in the league as a bottom line player. He's an everyday player you can give 15 minutes of ice time game in and game out.
Reaves---if we want a goon--he's pretty much the best. He's not a very good player but players are very wary of him--not just for the fighting but if he hits you he hits like a truck and no one in their right mind wants to be hit by a truck. I wouldn't be against signing him because he shouldn't break the bank and if worse came to worse some other team will come asking for him sooner or later and if necessary you could cash him in for some other asset. There are teams always looking a guy like him.
On Brady Tkachuk--seriously doubt he'll be on the board when it's our turn at 9. I don't think he'll get past 4 but the latest he'll go is 6. The Rangers will have to move up to get him. Not to get me wrong I would love for us to draft Tkachuk. He's a very good player and a complete asswipe to play against. Someone compared him to Claude Lemieux. A big, nasty, shit-disturber with a lot of hockey skill and one of Coach Quinn's players at BU. One problem with trading up for him though comes when you ask questions such as is he as good as Boqvist? Hughes? Bouchard? Dobson? Wahlstrom? and I don't think the answer is a clear yes at all on any of them and while I prefer Tkachuk to at least 4 of the above what it's going to cost to move up to get him might be very substantial and make it more worth staying exactly where we are. The second problem is finding that team that will trade---and if you're determined to pursue Tkachuk it's pretty much Montreal, Ottawa and Arizona you'll end up dealing with and their willingness comes into play here and they might not be willing.
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
Good post.
Personally, I don’t believe you can acquire toughness you need to breed it and make it an organic part of your organization. Adding a Hartnell or even a Reeves doesn’t all the sudden make you tough.
Haven’t we seen enough of buying UFAs for toughness?
eco's bones
Registered User
The thing with UFA's is they don't usually exceed expectations--or at least not by very much. Michael Grabner was kind of an exception for us. When it comes to a guy like Roussel--yeah, he'd give us a bit more edge but he's not really a panacea either. He's one player. The Caps have developed Tom Wilson into the role he has and it's not all that different from how the Bruins developed Milan Lucic into the role he had with them and when Lucic moved on he has not been able to quite recreate that same role for his new teams. A lot of things are situational--a player will fit with one team and not with another. And to go back to UFA's in general quite often they don't meet expectations. But IMO that's not a good reason to sign any especially when you've a lot of cap space. IMO it's best to make that space work for you than not use it all. As far as UFA's though I always prefer younger ones--25, 26, 27, 28 and shorter term the better. When you're signing a big name though shorter term usually doesn't work. Generally the big names we've signed have not exceeded expectations and have fallen short. Easier to move shorter term--if nothing else and the team isn't going to make the playoffs again---try to acquire more draft picks and prospects with them.
I expect the Rangers are going to be a tougher team and harder to play against. AV to some degree defanged and declawed them. We were an easy team to play against the last couple years. What changes (whether personnel or not) are going to be made to accomplish that remain to be seen. We've got all summer though.
If you have a player who has no qualms taking out the other teams best player in a 7 game series, and he can play, is that guy on your roster?
Thordic
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- Jul 12, 2006
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Tom Wilson makes just about every roster in the league, barring his play dropping off a cliff.
eco's bones
Registered User
I really don't like predatory players who try to injure other players. I've never minded fights when they're done fairly (and a player looking for a mismatch against an opponent isn't fair or suckering isn't fair) or agitators. To me Avery got a bad rap as a dirty player when he was more a hard player to play against. There wasn't a long line of players going to the emergency room with him. About the worst thing I saw him do was sucker punch and concuss Ladislav Smid though Smid certainly wanted to fight Avery and let his guard down---still I don't think Sean should have done what he did there. He took advantage when he shouldn't have. But he wasn't Matt Cooke---not even Brad Marchand or Brooks Orpik guys who've injured a lot of others. A guy like Tom Wilson I don't like because IMO he is deliberately trying to injure players all the time--regular season and even more so in the playoffs. His being suspended three times in one season speaks to that and when you see players being suspended multiple times and often for the same things and still making excuses and their teams backing them up well.......anyway players that target heads are dangerous players. The concussion thing is going to bite the NHL in the ass eventually and it might be very soon. They're either going to have to settle with the players and for big $'s or they're going to lose and pay out even more and it's only right.
Not too many guys like him around anymore.
I can respect that. There's Matt Cooke who was not respected. Sean had other things... like a verbal game more than a physical one.
I'm talking more along the lines of a Gudas, Wilson, Orpik, Kesler, Neal (Neal is very dirty).
Not saying you acquire those guys, but get guys with that type of game.
pld459666
Registered User
Didn't watch that game, but all I remember hearing and reading was that the Rangers yet again got ran out of the building.
NYR Viper
Registered User
I’ve been on the Roussell wagon for a while now. He’s a useful depth player who is a PIA to play against regularly. That’s a useful skill that seems to be so undervalued in the current all-skill NHL. I don’t think he’d break the bank and I would hope teammates learn from it and develop that side of their games.
Matt Calvert plays with some sandpaper.
I’d look into a lower cap hit Matt Martin who I think is a useful 4th loner who can bring some intensity, leadership and transport the puck ala the old Boyle line.
A rejuvenated Brendan Smith would help. So does an entire season of ADA and Pionk who play with an edge.
Very few players have the skill in any facet to change and entire team. In saying that, finding a group of players who can help mold a team in a certain direction. I think developing that pack mentality goes further than fighting it’s about standing up for each other when needed and being consistently known as a difficult team to play against.
There is no substitute for skill. Goals win games. In saying that, there are other things teams need.
Matt Calvert plays with some sandpaper.
I’d look into a lower cap hit Matt Martin who I think is a useful 4th loner who can bring some intensity, leadership and transport the puck ala the old Boyle line.
A rejuvenated Brendan Smith would help. So does an entire season of ADA and Pionk who play with an edge.
Very few players have the skill in any facet to change and entire team. In saying that, finding a group of players who can help mold a team in a certain direction. I think developing that pack mentality goes further than fighting it’s about standing up for each other when needed and being consistently known as a difficult team to play against.
There is no substitute for skill. Goals win games. In saying that, there are other things teams need.
