Tanking will always be a perceived problem

cardiffgiant

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Sep 28, 2005
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People realize the Gold Plan is flawed since if a team is bad enough to get eliminated 50ish games in, they're not suddenly flipping the switch and getting more points in the last 20+ games especially when the perceived motivation is to get a top draft pick, which again the players don't give a damn about. We are looking at the middle of the pack (6-10 range) getting the best draft picks possibly and the bottom of the league still being terrible with less hope.

Agreed. The gold plan prevents a team from being bad on purpose, but then the draft doesn't do anything for teams that are just plain bad.

It would also make the trade deadline pretty wierd. I honestly don't know who would be a seller.
 

Ducks in a row

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Dec 17, 2013
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Do you realize how unrealistic it is for a legitimately bad team to rebuild on just two top three picks in a five year period? This issue is just so weird to me with regards to how people react to it. Most of these kids are not contributing immediately to a team's winning within the first five years and most are not game-breakers if they are. People are vastly overrating how much impact these specific picks have on a team's rebuilding. If it mattered that much, Edmonton would've already been rebuilt and in the playoffs.

As for the other stuff, you can't really expect to be able to tell when a team is not playing the best available that night, can you? Players don't sit when they don't have to. Coaches don't sit their players when they don't have to.

People advocating for the most points after elimination seem to completely ignore the fact that if you make the losers want to win too, you kill the trade deadline and the legitimately good teams' ability to improve their roster for a real competition...the Cup. People need to really analyze what this 'problem' actually is, who it is impacting, and when offering solutions they need to think it through. It's obvious that isn't happening with that silly most points after elimination plan.

Edmonton with bad coaching bad management bad scouting undesirable location for most players so it is harder to get them to sign as a free agent or trade for players who have them on their list as wont accept trade to. Because of Edmonton having problems is not a normal thing and shouldn't be used against importance of getting better picks.

On the other side look at Penguins
2003 1st overall G: Marc-Andre Fleury
2004 2nd overall C: Evgeni Malkin
2005 1st overall C: Sidney Crosby
2006 2nd overall C: Jordan Staal

They made the Stanley Cup finals in 2008 losing to Red Wings and then in 2009 they won the Stanley Cup.
Draft picks are very important for teams to get out of the basement however they are no sure thing.


Correct that players and coaches don't do anything that is clearly a tank job.

Yep gold plan would mess up trade deadline and it would hurt the teams that are just honestly bad.


It's funny the correlation between what team one is a fan of, and stance on this issue. No **** Kings fans want changes, because they can benefit from it, and it doesn't hurt them. You think the Leafs, just starting their rebuild, are happy about this ****? They are going to have a couple years of rough hockey, and now they aren't even guaranteed a top 3 pick, which will make the process even longer and tougher. In fact, they have a 49.50% chance they won't even pick in the top 3 (assuming they finish last). That's just plain ridiculous.

I'm sick of seeing these anti-"tank" people who are fans of teams that draft changes do not even effect, and furthermore, they benefited from the old system. It's hilarious seeing these fans whose teams' have bottomed out and gotten better through "tanking" (rebuilding) and now they are banging the desk to have it changed. The old system is fine. The worst teams need the best picks to maintain parity, and the asinine notion that "they are still getting a top pick" needs to stop. The difference between the #4 pick and the #1 pick in many years is huge, so stop acting like there is no difference at all, or something.

Yep the people that keep talking about tanking and want something to stop it just have a agenda and it isn't to help honestly bad teams but to hurt them so that their team has a chance at getting better picks even if their team isn't that bad but just misses the playoffs. It is the greed of people wanting a chance to get 1st overall without having to go through a horrible season. My team has never drafting 1st overall and are currently a contender I don't have that greed so I want the honestly worst teams to have the better chance to improve I don't want to see teams suck for a long time and maybe move. Arizona lost out on Jack Eichel because of the stupid lottery they really really needed that pick.
 

Finlandia WOAT

js7.4x8fnmcf5070124
May 23, 2010
24,197
23,881
The NHL encourages tanking.

Or at least, the type of tanking we saw this year.

Why?

Because of the cyclical nature of the game.

Bad teams send their upcoming FA's to good teams. Bad teams get prospects and picks. Good teams become super teams, allowing super-team vs. super-team combat in the playoffs, a la the NBA.

If good teams don't have high picks or cheap prospects contributing, they likely won't have anyone to replace their aging core, or the money to do so. Likewise, if bad teams have a lot of picks, they will likely have a surge as cheap, young, good players buoy their team. In 3 years, they go from nothing to contender.

Then you have the same process, but in reverse. The bad teams are now super teams, and are encouraged to raid the once good, now bad teams for their spare parts. Creating more super teams, and awesome playoff hockey.

Why the change?

First, the salary cap has had the intended effect of parity. Bad teams have to have some good players to reach the floor. But this means less entertaining hockey. This is the way the NHL is trying to fix it-super-teams in the playoffs. In addition, it means that even teams who sell everything not nailed down still have something in terms of veteran talent, meaning that most teams, with luck and lots and lots of high draft picks, can complete a turn around.

Second, NHL drafting has exploded in effectiveness, with a top-10 pick highly likely to turn into an effective player. Go look at drafts from 1996-2006. They all freaking suck (btw, this is why the NHL is now changing it's draft lottery...because they can afford to. Two picks is no longer the difference between Alexander Ovechkin and Cam Barker).

Edmonton is terrible, but the NHL wants teams like the Sabres, Arizona, or Carolina. They are primed to explode with their mix of veteran players and young talent in 2-3 years. Likewise, Chicago has been forced to distribute their talent; Sharks and Bruins are fading fast while the Isles and Sens are on the rise; only Detroit seems to be able to buck this trend. And will their young players be able to step up when Zetterberg and Datsyuk retire/decline? Probably not, or I hope so.

Tanking isn't going anywhere. The NHL encourages it. Get used to it.

____________________________

For that matter, I'll also tell you why people care so much about tanking.

What does the NHL sell? Is it hockey? The chance to watch the world's best at their sport?

No.

Is it a night of entertainment with the family, and friends, and the good old family friend Molson? No.

It's emotion. They are selling you an emotional connection. The adrenaline rush when your team scores a goal. The cursing when they lose. The jubilation of a Game 4 win at the very last second, mocking the so-called GOAT goaltender as he throws a hissy fit over "interference", as the refs have to drag one last guy from the opposing locker room to take a faceoff that is completely pointless. The chest pains when your team scores 2 goals in a minute to take the lead in game 7, in one of the greatest combacks in NHL playoff history. I'm telling you this from memory as a 16 year old, and when some other fan posts angrily to refute my above opinions, it will only prove what I am saying.

The NHL-all of professional sports- is offering an emotional connection with a sports team. You feel the highs, and the lows. You can say "We need" instead of "The Hurricanes need" on a message board. This is how they convince you to drop an obscene amount of money to watch grown men play a kids game. Advertisers have realized this emotional connection, and payed top dollar for it, since the Roman Empire, when gladiators would have paid sponsors (seriously, look it up, it's really cool, and it was so unbelievable that they decided to not have Russell Crowe re-enact it).

Go and see the vitrol (lol, behind damage is blocked) in the dozen "Edmonton wins the draft lottery....again" threads. See how many people felt as though the NHL directly cheated THEM, not their team.

Then you have something that seems to damage this emotional connection. They don't really care. They're trying to lose. Why should I pay money for these losers? Why am I emotionally connected to a bunch of losers? This isn't right, this isn't what I paid for!

So you have a bunch of people angry about tanking, because it directly harms their investment. Their perception of the relationship between them, and their hockey team. It's not real. It's an illusion.

This is also why there is no tanking...or why the NHL is cracking down on it. They don't want to give off that perception. It's bad for business. So they are remodeling it. Now it's: watch your team lose, and in 2-3 years, you will be rewarded! In the meantime, watch the young stars of tomorrow! This is why they're going for a lottery. A draft lottery doesn't really solve tanking. Bad teams are still going to strip it all down. Which is what the NHL wants.

Really, if the NHL actually had a problem with tanking, you know what they would do? Names out of a hat. But they won't. Because this belief that YOU (via your team) has been cheated is solidifying what the NHL wants. An emotional connection.

It's all a conspiracy. The NHL doesn't want you to think that your team is tanking; but that other teams are tanking, and are ripping off YOU! Given the Sabres fans who have effectively defended their craptastic team this entire season, I'd say they've done a good job in crafting that perception.
 
Last edited:

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,468
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Folsom
Edmonton with bad coaching bad management bad scouting undesirable location for most players so it is harder to get them to sign as a free agent or trade for players who have them on their list as wont accept trade to. Because of Edmonton having problems is not a normal thing and shouldn't be used against importance of getting better picks.

On the other side look at Penguins
2003 1st overall G: Marc-Andre Fleury
2004 2nd overall C: Evgeni Malkin
2005 1st overall C: Sidney Crosby
2006 2nd overall C: Jordan Staal

They made the Stanley Cup finals in 2008 losing to Red Wings and then in 2009 they won the Stanley Cup.
Draft picks are very important for teams to get out of the basement however they are no sure thing.


Correct that players and coaches don't do anything that is clearly a tank job.

Yep gold plan would mess up trade deadline and it would hurt the teams that are just honestly bad.

I'm not trying to understate the value of draft picks. I'm just stating that two top three picks in a five year period is an unrealistic sanction to put on a legitimately bad team if the purpose is for them to rebuild. If you look at your Pittsburgh situation and institute that rule change, do the Penguins get that far or get that ultimate success without Crosby and Staal as that stipulation would mean they couldn't be drafted? I don't think so. I don't think a Malkin led Pens team is even a playoff team without Crosby.

Draft picks are valuable to the teams that do everything else necessary to bring them and the team along. Without the other things, those draft picks are not anywhere as valuable as people make them out to be and to punish those teams that suck and have incompetent management by not allowing them to pick where they should just doesn't make any sense.
 

Ducks in a row

Go Ducks Quack Quack
Dec 17, 2013
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I'm not trying to understate the value of draft picks. I'm just stating that two top three picks in a five year period is an unrealistic sanction to put on a legitimately bad team if the purpose is for them to rebuild. If you look at your Pittsburgh situation and institute that rule change, do the Penguins get that far or get that ultimate success without Crosby and Staal as that stipulation would mean they couldn't be drafted? I don't think so. I don't think a Malkin led Pens team is even a playoff team without Crosby.

Draft picks are valuable to the teams that do everything else necessary to bring them and the team along. Without the other things, those draft picks are not anywhere as valuable as people make them out to be and to punish those teams that suck and have incompetent management by not allowing them to pick where they should just doesn't make any sense.

Yep without Crosby and Staal the Penguins wouldn't of won their Stanley Cup and without Crosby at all this season they wouldn't of made playoffs.

Yep you need to be able to do more then just draft in top 3 to get out of the basement. You need to make good trades good free agent signings as well. If you have a hard time making the trades because the team sucks and they play in a undesirable location so a lot of players don't want to be traded to them it will have a big negative impact on getting out of the basement especially if they miss out of top picks because of lottery system or whatever other stupid thing. A good coach can only do so much. Sometimes a team just needs to get top picks to help them out.
 

Dogewow

Such Profile
Feb 1, 2015
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It's funny the correlation between what team one is a fan of, and stance on this issue. No **** Kings fans want changes, because they can benefit from it, and it doesn't hurt them. You think the Leafs, just starting their rebuild, are happy about this ****? They are going to have a couple years of rough hockey, and now they aren't even guaranteed a top 3 pick, which will make the process even longer and tougher. In fact, they have a 49.50% chance they won't even pick in the top 3 (assuming they finish last). That's just plain ridiculous.

I'm sick of seeing these anti-"tank" people who are fans of teams that draft changes do not even effect, and furthermore, they benefited from the old system. It's hilarious seeing these fans whose teams' have bottomed out and gotten better through "tanking" (rebuilding) and now they are banging the desk to have it changed. The old system is fine. The worst teams need the best picks to maintain parity, and the asinine notion that "they are still getting a top pick" needs to stop. The difference between the #4 pick and the #1 pick in many years is huge, so stop acting like there is no difference at all, or something.

:handclap:

I have yet to see an "anti-tanker" address a post like this. I gaurantee you this post will get ignored and the thread will die out. Low and behold 3 days later we'll see a new thread titled "My genius plan to stop tanking!!!111!!" :laugh:
 

CarlWinslow

@hiphopsicles
Jan 25, 2010
7,734
140
Winnipeg
I've also yet to see an anti-tanker explain the difference between rebuilding and tanking. Its important because rebuilding has always been perfectly acceptable to these people and its only now that McEichel is in play that these jokers have come out of the wood work riding their ethical high horses.

All they ever do is spout this nonsense about how Buffalo built a team to lose. Of course they can never actually give examples of how Buffalo could have altered their team pre-season to make themselves a Cup contender; or justify how trading UFA back-up goalies is somehow now "building a losing team".
 

Dogewow

Such Profile
Feb 1, 2015
2,883
291
I've also yet to see an anti-tanker explain the difference between rebuilding and tanking. Its important because rebuilding has always been perfectly acceptable to these people and its only now that McEichel is in play that these jokers have come out of the wood work riding their ethical high horses.

All they ever do is spout this nonsense about how Buffalo built a team to lose. Of course they can never actually give examples of how Buffalo could have altered their team pre-season to make themselves a Cup contender; or justify how trading UFA back-up goalies is somehow now "building a losing team".

To me the worst part of it (other than what was already discussed) is that not a single idea that anyone has come up with is something that could realistically work. Its all these convoluted post trade deadline standings/tournaments or "golden rules". It all ignores the fact that there are teams out there that are legitimately terrible, and the fact of the matter is that sometimes trades/free agent signings arent enough make a bottom 5 Team into a playoff team, despite what fans of winning teams want to believe.

Also, you cant forget that players and coaching staffs are there to win every game, and care nothing about where the Team drafts. That statement alone is enough to shoot down most of this stuff, but it doesn't matter to people because, like you said, McEichel is in the draft.
 

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