Talking The Avs Ep 13 - “Do we blow up the core?â€

[The Mars Volchenkov]

RE: Gelinas - this is a big one for me, less with regards to how well or not he ultimately does as a player, but more along the lines of gauging Roy and Sakic in terms of both how they work together, and also what sort of competency we're looking at between them.

I say that because while like TMV says, I think the 3rd is fair value as far as the quality of player Gelinas is - 3rds are also still valuable assets like TV said, and you can't just throw them around like candy. I would HOPE Roy and Sakic are really on the same page and that they saw something very specific they wanted in Gelinas and are going to really put him in that role and give him every chance to succeed. I really don't think he's a guy you can acquire for a 3rd then ultimately send down the Gormley/Redmond route. To me that would indicate that either Sakic and Roy aren't on the same page when it comes to the personnel (which would be pretty surprising) or that they are just all over the board when it comes to understanding value.

Roy seems to be on board with the Gelinas pick up right now, but right now and 3 months from now are a different story. He said in September that Gormley would be a top 4 defender for them with Barrie, and by January he was on waivers, and he's probably never going to be seen again. He was also younger with less NHL experience than Gelinas.

I don't have a problem with the value because a 3rd for a young NHL player isn't a bad move, but the player they picked up just doesn't make sense to me. Another player similar to Nick Holden is not what we need. One of them is more than enough. I think I described both of them on the podcast as guys with slow feet and a slow brain. You don't want a lot of that on your team.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Had no idea TMV's name was Evan. I realize now that I actually followed his personal account a while back but only because I read some Avs related tweets that were knowledgable so I thought he'd be a good follow.

We're name bro's!!

 

[CobraAcesS]

About Boedker. Just adding speed to that line is going to help us. But I had said that about Boedker previously both on here and on a different podcast, would just be weird if I changed that just cause we were the team that ended up getting him.

No no, I have no problem with you sticking to your guns on him thus far. But I would hope that he has the ability to change your mind now that you'll be watching him on our team for the rest of the year.

From what I seen in one game with us, hes a certain type of player that's not going to be very effective when his line is hemmed in playing defensive hockey. However he is great in transition, and was actually pretty good at maintaining possession in the offensive zone once he got more confident and carried the puck more.

Talking about playing defense, there was a couple times where he was able to skate the puck out of pressure and get it moving up the ice. So he can help there.

One thing I know for sure is, Roy has no time for players that are one dimensional that way like Iggy, Tanguay, and Parenteau. Iggy was demoted to the lower lines, Tanguay and PA were traded.

So I think if he does stick around, those behind the puck issues are something he'll have to prove to Roy that hes willing to work on.

You have to wonder what he would be like if he could round out his game a bit, he'd be a bit more like Tanguay and Hejduk but with more speed.

I also don't see him as a sniper either, if you look as his past history hes got a high shooting percentage at times, and far more assists than goals. He also does have a 19 goal season. (13-14) So it was a little more than a pace

 

[InjuredChoker]

One thing I know for sure is, Roy has no time for players that are one dimensional that way like Iggy, Tanguay, and Parenteau. Iggy was demoted to the lower lines, Tanguay and PA were traded.

patty had time for iggy and tangs when they were one dimensional (season(s) prior).

this season they have had no dimension. bad offensively and defensively.

 

[5280]

I would say EJ too. Erik Johnson under Sacco was terrible.

Moving Duchene to the right wing helped get him going this year, and now i wonder if that is the best position for him moving forward.

I'm not 100 percent sure moving him to right wing is what got him going, though. Didn't they finally move Iggy off his line and put Mack up there at the same time? Either or both of those variables probably helped him out, too.

 

[CobraAcesS]

patty had time for iggy and tangs when they were one dimensional (season(s) prior).

this season they have had no dimension. bad offensively and defensively.

Tanguay's two way game was absolutely awesome last season, not even close to true. No matter what wing he was put on or what line it was, he kept producing, and played a very valuable two way game.

Iginla also has slowed down a bit from last season when it comes to chasing down pucks and winning battles. Which is also something hes gotten better at the last few games here. Such is the reason we're not complaining about him nearly as much, and the fact that hes stayed where he is for the last few games.

Sakic was the one who gave the final ok to trade Tanguay as well.

The entire point is that, I don't believe pure offense will be enough to convince Roy and Sakic to keep Boedker. They'll have to like his entire game well enough IMO. They've proven they can see through pure offensive numbers, and act accordingly.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Tanguay's two way game was absolutely awesome last season, not even close to true. No matter what wing he was put on or what line it was, he kept producing, and played a very valuable two way game.

Iginla also has slowed down a bit from last season when it comes to chasing down pucks and winning battles. Which is also something hes gotten better at the last few games here. Such is the reason we're not complaining about him nearly as much, and the fact that hes stayed where he is for the last few games.

Sakic was the one who gave the final ok to trade Tanguay as well.

The entire point is that, I don't believe pure offense will be enough to convince Roy and Sakic to keep Boedker. They'll have to like his entire game well enough IMO. They've proven they can see through pure offensive numbers, and act accordingly.

i think tanguay was terrible defensively last season. just like this one but he could score last season.

 

[dahrougem2]

IMHO the biggest problem with the Roy tenure thus far hasn't been our lack of depth, or suspect defensive play, but rather the lack of development of the player who should be the ones carrying the club. Can you say with certainty that Duchene, Nate, Gabe, EJ, etc made big strides since Roy's first season? The only one who improved in a significant manner is Tyson, and with him it seems more that it was just natural progression rather than amazing coaching and guidance.

I'd say the biggest disappointment for me personally is that MacKinnon doesn't seem to have ascended at all since his rookie season. He hasn't regressed, he's just stagnated for the following two years. He's still 20 and I don't want to worry yet, but if he has, say, another 55-60 point season next year then would it be time to start wondering if that's the kind of player he'll be long-term.

An example I'll throw out there is Ryan Nugent-Hopkins:

1st Year: 52 points in 62 games (0.84 PPG)
2nd Year: 24 points in 40 games (0.6 PPG)
3rd year: 56 points in 80 games (0.7 PPG)
4th year: 56 points in 76 games (0.74 PPG)
5th year: 30 points in 46 games (0.65 PPG)

vs MacK thus far:

1st year: 63 points in 82 games (0.77 PPG)
2nd year: 34 points in 64 games (0.53 PPG)
3rd year: 48 points in 65 games (0.74 PPG)

Not that I'm saying MacKinnon = RNH, but RNH started out his career very well, regressed the next season, then picked it up a bit but has seemingly halted any sort of progression, just staying at relatively the same spot.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I'd say the biggest disappointment for me personally is that MacKinnon doesn't seem to have ascended at all since his rookie season. He hasn't regressed, he's just stagnated for the following two years. He's still 20 and I don't want to worry yet, but if he has, say, another 55-60 point season next year then would it be time to start wondering if that's the kind of player he'll be long-term.

An example I'll throw out there is Ryan Nugent-Hopkins:

1st Year: 52 points in 62 games (0.84 PPG)
2nd Year: 24 points in 40 games (0.6 PPG)
3rd year: 56 points in 80 games (0.7 PPG)
4th year: 56 points in 76 games (0.74 PPG)
5th year: 30 points in 46 games (0.65 PPG)

vs MacK thus far:

1st year: 63 points in 82 games (0.77 PPG)
2nd year: 34 points in 64 games (0.53 PPG)
3rd year: 48 points in 65 games (0.74 PPG)

Not that I'm saying MacKinnon = RNH, but RNH started out his career very well, regressed the next season, then picked it up a bit but has seemingly halted any sort of progression, just staying at relatively the same spot.

Duchene has been all over the place as well. However MacK has less of a line mate excuse than Duchene did for the early years.

I guess he still does to an extent though with Tanguay and Iginla lol.

He's playing between two good wingers again since Stastny was on this team, we'll see what he does with it.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Robin, Boedker got another point tonight and it was a 5v5 goal

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

I'd say the biggest disappointment for me personally is that MacKinnon doesn't seem to have ascended at all since his rookie season. He hasn't regressed, he's just stagnated for the following two years. He's still 20 and I don't want to worry yet, but if he has, say, another 55-60 point season next year then would it be time to start wondering if that's the kind of player he'll be long-term.

An example I'll throw out there is Ryan Nugent-Hopkins:

1st Year: 52 points in 62 games (0.84 PPG)
2nd Year: 24 points in 40 games (0.6 PPG)
3rd year: 56 points in 80 games (0.7 PPG)
4th year: 56 points in 76 games (0.74 PPG)
5th year: 30 points in 46 games (0.65 PPG)

vs MacK thus far:

1st year: 63 points in 82 games (0.77 PPG)
2nd year: 34 points in 64 games (0.53 PPG)
3rd year: 48 points in 65 games (0.74 PPG)

Not that I'm saying MacKinnon = RNH, but RNH started out his career very well, regressed the next season, then picked it up a bit but has seemingly halted any sort of progression, just staying at relatively the same spot.

That's concerning and actually It's worse for MacK, because at least RNH has that injury excuse he had in his rookie season, which slowed down his progress. MacK hasn't missed that many games to injuries. MacK needs to improve and figure it out. I personally believe he has too great physical tools to be only 0.74 ppg player. He should be better than Duchene. MacKinnon should also score more goals, he should be around 30-40 goal scorer imo. He has great shot.

 

[AvsRobin]

Robin, Boedker got another point tonight and it was a 5v5 goal

I'm pretty happy with my comparison to Jamie McGinn, also one dimensional player who in a perfect world is a third liner, but can fill a role in the top 6 as the "third guy" on a good line with two better players. Boedker is just more finesse and less physical than Jamie.

And his speed alone is going to help that line.

My huge problem with him is his reputation as a top player who many would be OK giving 5M.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I'm pretty happy with my comparison to Jamie McGinn, also one dimensional player who in a perfect world is a third liner, but can fill a role in the top 6 as the "third guy" on a good line with two better players. Boedker is just more finesse and less physical than Jamie.

And his speed alone is going to help that line.

My huge problem with him is his reputation as a top player who many would be OK giving 5M.

He's a top 6 player dude no doubt about it. He's much better than Mcginn. Stats can tell a lot and they usually do but that isn't the case with Boedker and I've been trying to preach this since October. The best forward on Arizona for many years, forced in Tippett's defense first system with awful linemates. He's a 5 million dollar player going forward and every cent less than that which he decides to take is pure gravy.

 

[AvsRobin]

He's a top 6 player dude no doubt about it. He's much better than Mcginn. Stats can tell a lot and they usually do but that isn't the case with Boedker and I've been trying to preach this since October. The best forward on Arizona for many years, forced in Tippett's defense first system with awful linemates. He's a 5 million dollar player going forward and every cent less than that which he decides to take is pure gravy.

I don't think Tippetts system is a valid excuse. It doesn't make sense. He still hasn't been the best producer on the team. He has just been the one getting a big amount of ice time.

But hey, if we overpay for him, at least it's an overpayment for a skilled guy and not a "powerforward" who is on a decline but used to score in the past but is a pure grinder now. We have seen those contracts fly around the league.

 

[Ivan13]

I don't think Tippetts system is a valid excuse. It doesn't make sense. He still hasn't been the best producer on the team. He has just been the one getting a big amount of ice time.

But hey, if we overpay for him, at least it's an overpayment for a skilled guy and not a "powerforward" who is on a decline but used to score in the past but is a pure grinder now. We have seen those contracts fly around the league.

Pretty much what I'm thinking.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I don't think Tippetts system is a valid excuse. It doesn't make sense. He still hasn't been the best producer on the team. He has just been the one getting a big amount of ice time.

But hey, if we overpay for him, at least it's an overpayment for a skilled guy and not a "powerforward" who is on a decline but used to score in the past but is a pure grinder now. We have seen those contracts fly around the league.

Tippett's system is definitely part of the reason. Trust me, I'm not saying this from guessing. I've watched the guy over and over. He's always dangerous with the puck on his stick. Over the last 4 years Alex Ovechkin is 88th among NHL players at points/60 5 on 5. Obviously the pp is the strongest part of Ovie's game but he's still one of the most dangerous players in the league with the puck on his stick at ES. I like looking at p/60 just as much or probably more than most people but that doesn't always say how good a player is. Jesse Winchester who has played 550 minutes ES in that time has produced at a better rate than Ovie, Backstrom, ROR and JVR. It has a lot more to do with matchups and fatigue than anything.

Jesse Winchester playing 10 minutes a night against other teams scrubs is a lot easier than Boedker playing 18 minutes a night against other teams top lines.

 

[Ivan13]

This year he played with the following players:

The year before:

In 13/14:

In 12/13

 

[Cousin Eddie]

This year he played with the following players:
Snip

I'm aware of who he's played with which is why I've been saying his top linemates since 2012 have been Doan and Vermette. It's why I've said he's always been the best forward on his team (alone his line) and is now going to get an opportunity to skate on a line with two superior players.

 

[Ivan13]

I'm aware of who he's played with which is why I've been saying his top linemates since 2012 have been Doan and Vermette. It's why I've said he's always been the best forward on his team (alone his line) and is now going to get an opportunity to skate on a line with two superior players.

Just trying to provide some context, btw I think Vermette is cooked and not a good player for a couple of seasons now. My opinion on Boedker is the following, he is a complimentary player, not a guy who can carry a line, and certainly not a guy who should be paid 5mil per year. Some people here (not you Kento) scoff at the idea of playing Barrie more than 6 mil, but would pay around 5 for Boedker. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.

If someone gives Boedker 5 mil, I sure hope it doesn't come from us.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Just trying to provide some context, btw I think Vermette is cooked and not a good player for a couple of seasons now. My opinion on Boedker is the following, he is a complimentary player, not a guy who can carry a line, and certainly not a guy who should be paid 5mil per year. Some people here (not you Kento) scoff at the idea of playing Barrie more than 6 mil, but would pay around 5 for Boedker. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.

If someone gives Boedker 5 mil, I sure hope it doesn't come from us.

I agree with you in saying he shouldn't be a guy that can carry a line. Especially a 1st line. But I think he's a great top 6 player and great top 6 players get paid 5mil+ .

 

[Ivan13]

I agree with you in saying he shouldn't be a guy that can carry a line. Especially a 1st line. But I think he's a great top 6 player and great top 6 players get paid 5mil+ .

I don't see it. I think he's an OK second liner, nothing more, nothing less. And I don't see how his track record gets him an avv of over 5 mil.

 

[ArWKo]

The most I would conceivably pay Boedker next season is 4.5 million and that's if he shows this season that he clicks with MacK and/or Landy.

Don't know if he'd accept it, but making the playoffs would probably help if he sees a chance to really win here. I do think, like someone mentioned in the podcast, you could see a scenario where he does to try out the market but gets the Beleskey treatment and then perhaps signs here for less after realizing he isn't going to get what he wants.

 

[Alex Jones]

Something that you touched on that I have been thinking about...

I think the Avs should consider moving EJ. He's probably on the downhill and has a long contract. Move him now before everyone catches onto the fact he's not the guy anymore.

 

[Foppa2118]

Something that you touched on that I have been thinking about...

I think the Avs should consider moving EJ. He's probably on the downhill and has a long contract. Move him now before everyone catches onto the fact he's not the guy anymore.

Moving EJ has never made sense in terms of making this team better though.

The Avs problem is they have too many defenseman that are poor defensively. Even if you swap an all around better D man like say Viktor Hedman for EJ, that may make you slightly better, but your original problem still exists and you're out whatever assets you just gave away. You improved one of the six spots in the D core that didn't need improvement, especially defensively.

They have to add to EJ to get better. That has always been their route to success.

 

[Boulder Avalanche]

Trading EJ makes sense if they are certain he is on the decline. You have to make that deal when his value is the highest. Once EJ loses his legs he will struggle to stay in the top 4. He simply does not have enough skill elsewhere to overcome losing something crucial like skating.