Swedish media: Finland has surpassed Sweden in hockey

[RageQuit77]

@vivalavili There are nothing wrong in your chosen milestones if wanting compare amounts of high end players. Hard to think more simpler and objective stats for that.

Sweden's defensemen crop out-defend both Finland and Russia days-in days-out, AINEC.

General consensus has been already some 30 years that Finland is one of the greatest hockey countries in the world, so that's something nobody start disagree now. Part of that greatness comes from the fact Finns are and have been consistently over-represented relative to a size of player pool available for such small population.

 

[canswetoxic]

We were talking about TOP END TALENT. You think 10 goals is top end talent? Sweden has way more depth atm, nobody said otherwise.

And your original claim was that "Finland won once and now they are powerhouse, ha ha" or something along those lines. Powerhouse means, atleast for me, a country which is able to produce talented players every year into the NHL. And more than just one. Finland is doing that currently, and this years draft is 4th, read 4th year in a row when Finn is drafted in top-3. Also looks like 2020 is going to be 5th.

As I said you can pick and choose, whatever make your feel good. You see, I'm happy for Finland finally catching up but going around and saying Finland is on par with other powerhouse is just doesn't sound right.

Lets agree to disagree and my view ends here.

 

[vivalavili]

@vivalavili There are nothing wrong in your chosen milestones if wanting compare amounts of high end players. Hard to think more simpler and objective stats for that.

Sweden's defensemen crop out-defend both Finland and Russia days-in days-out, AINEC.

General consensus has been already some 30 years that Finland is one of the greatest hockey countries in the world, so that's something nobody start disagree now. Part of that greatness comes from the fact Finns are and have been consistently over-represented relative to a size of player pool available for such small population.

I agree with the bolded. I would actually say that the Swedish defensive core is the best in the entire league, or at least just behind Canada's.

 

[Ippenator]

I agree with the bolded. I would actually say that the Swedish defensive core is the best in the entire league, or at least just behind Canada's.

I would say that they would be right there with Canada, at least if Karlsson could still get back into his best form. It might not happen anymore though, but I think if they are behind Canada, it’s mostly because their previously best defenceman isn’t unfortunately as good anymore as he used to be. But Dahlin is coming up strong, so the situation might even change to Sweden’s benefit sooner than we can imagine.

 

[RageQuit77]

Interesting topic would be what are key differences between Swedish and Finnish production pipelines that favor Swedes so heavily in defensemen production quality. Maybe Finnish systemic team-defense ideology has something to do with that Finland lags behind in that department (relative to Swedes).

Not entirely sure about this, but my impression is that most of Finnish players making their careers in SEL have been forwards and goalies, not D-men.

 

[karhukissa]

As I said you can pick and choose, whatever make your feel good. You see, I'm happy for Finland finally catching up but going around and saying Finland is on par with other powerhouse is just doesn't sound right.

Lets agree to disagree and my view ends here.

That's fine. Here's one last argument and i just leave it there, if facts doesn't help then nothing. I picked 2 best players from each draft class since 2012 (players still under 25)

2012 draft class: Teräväinen&Lindell vs Forsberg&H. Lindholm vs Vasilevskiy&Yakupov (1.SWE 2.FIN 3.RUS)

2013 draft class: Barkov&Risto vs Lindholm&Wennberg vs Zadorov&Buchnevich (1. FIN 2.SWE 3.RUS)

2014 draft class: Kapanen&Honka vs Nylander&Arvidsson vs Goldobin&Barbashyov (1.Swe 2.FIN 3.RUS)

2015 draft class: Rantanen&Aho vs Eriksson Ek&Kylington vs Provorov&Guryanov (1.FIN 2.RUS 3.SWE)

2016 draft class: Laine&Puljujärvi vs A.Nylander&Bratt vs Sergachyov&Rubtsov (1.FIN 2.RUS 3.SWE)

2017: Heiskanen&Jokiharju vs EP&Brännström vs Kostin&Volkov (1.SWE 2.FIN 3.RUS)

2018 (picked just one because lack of data at this point): Kotka vs Dahlin vs Svechnikov (1.SWE 2. RUS/FIN)

2019 Projected: Kakko vs Podkolzin vs Söderström (1.FIN 2.RUS 3.SWE)

Looks pretty even to me, even if it doesn't sound right.

 

[Merya]

they were a powerhouse in 98 when they defeated a Stacked Canada team for the Bronze medal. No surprise here. you know who else is on the rise? the Swiss and they will soon surpass the Czechs.

From 98 to 2014 our spearhead was pretty much the same. Thank goodness we started to produce new talent finally, just in time.

 

[RageQuit77]

Active NHL players: Sweden 97 - Finland 49

Regular seasons

Forwards: Sweden 54 - Finland 29
Forward GPs: Sweden 16649 - Finland 6863
Forward Pts: Sweden 8591 - Finland 3690

Defensemen: Sweden 37 - Finland 12
D-men GPs: Sweden 11106 - Finland 1920
D-men Pts: Sweden 4189 - Finland 671

Goalies: Sweden 6 - Finland 8
Goalies GPS: Sweden 1559 - Finland 1977
SV%: Sweden 0.915 - Finland 0.917
GAA: Sweden 2.59 - Finland 2.45

Active NHL Players Totals by Nationality - Career Stats

If I would be Swedish sports journalist, I wouldn't make conclusion Finns would've surpassed Sweden. To me as a fan of lillabror, its impossible to think I would be now fan of Storebror when looking those simple tables.

And then if I look IIHF rankings...

I still not identify myself as storebror, even considering the overall effort of 2019 by The National Teams of Finland.

 

[canswetoxic]

That's fine. Here's one last argument and i just leave it there, if facts doesn't help then nothing. I picked 2 best players from each draft class since 2012 (players still under 25)

2012 draft class: Teräväinen&Lindell vs Forsberg&H. Lindholm vs Vasilevskiy&Yakupov (1.SWE 2.FIN 3.RUS)

2013 draft class: Barkov&Risto vs Lindholm&Wennberg vs Zadorov&Buchnevich (1. FIN 2.SWE 3.RUS)

2014 draft class: Kapanen&Honka vs Nylander&Arvidsson vs Goldobin&Barbashyov (1.Swe 2.FIN 3.RUS)

2015 draft class: Rantanen&Aho vs Eriksson Ek&Kylington vs Provorov&Guryanov (1.FIN 2.RUS 3.SWE)

2016 draft class: Laine&Puljujärvi vs A.Nylander&Bratt vs Sergachyov&Rubtsov (1.FIN 2.RUS 3.SWE)

2017: Heiskanen&Jokiharju vs EP&Brännström vs Kostin&Volkov (1.SWE 2.FIN 3.RUS)

2018 (picked just one because lack of data at this point): Kotka vs Dahlin vs Svechnikov (1.SWE 2. RUS/FIN)

2019 Projected: Kakko vs Podkolzin vs Söderström (1.FIN 2.RUS 3.SWE)

Looks pretty even to me, even if it doesn't sound right.

It does look even but the bad news is you need 20 players. How does it looks like then?

 

[jfc64]

This isn't going to change for a while:

Erik Karlsson (D) San Jose Sharks 53 3 42 45 0.85 22 6
Victor Hedman (D) Tampa Bay Lightning 70 12 42 54 0.77 44 24
Erik Gustafsson (D) Chicago Blackhawks 79 17 43 60 0.76 34 -6
John Klingberg (D) Dallas Stars 64 10 35 45 0.70 12 6
Alexander Edler (D) Vancouver Canucks 56 10 24 34 0.61 54 3
Mattias Ekholm (D) Nashville Predators 80 8 36 44 0.55 47 27
Rasmus Ristolainen (D) Buffalo Sabres 78 5 38 43 0.55 38 -41
Oliver Ekman Larsson (D) Arizona Coyotes 81 14 30 44 0.54 52 -16
Rasmus Dahlin (D) Buffalo Sabres 82 9 35 44 0.54 34 -13
Oscar Klefbom (D) Edmonton Oilers 61 5 23 28 0.46 16 -11
Miro Heiskanen (D) Dallas Stars 82 12 21 33 0.40 16 -14
Esa Lindell (D) Dallas Stars 82 11 21 32 0.39 33 14
Hampus Lindholm (D) Anaheim Ducks 76 6 22 28 0.37 44 -5
Anton Strålman (D) Tampa Bay Lightning 47 2 15 17 0.36 8 12
Tim Heed (D) San Jose Sharks 37 2 11 13 0.35 10 9
Niklas Kronwall (D) Detroit Red Wings 79 3 24 27 0.34 40 -5
Sami Vatanen (D) New Jersey Devils 50 4 13 17 0.34 22 -17
Henri Jokiharju (D) Chicago Blackhawks 38 0 12 12 0.32 16 -7
Marcus Pettersson (D) totals 84 2 23 25 0.30 66 17
Carl Gunnarsson (D) St. Louis Blues 25 3 4 7 0.28 6 8
Markus Nutivaara (D) Columbus Blue Jackets 80 5 16 21 0.26 6 3
Calle Rosén (D) Toronto Maple Leafs 4 1 0 1 0.25 0 -3
Robert Hägg (D) Philadelphia Flyers 82 5 15 20 0.24 63 -3
Adam Larsson (D) Edmonton Oilers 82 3 17 20 0.24 44 -28
Rasmus Andersson (D) Calgary Flames 79 2 17 19 0.24 23 17
Olli Määttä (D) Pittsburgh Penguins 60 1 13 14 0.23 12 9
Christian Djoos (D) Washington Capitals 45 1 9 10 0.22 4 9
Jonas Brodin (D) Minnesota Wild 82 4 14 18 0.22 30 -15
Oliver Kylington (D) Calgary Flames 38 3 5 8 0.21 10 3
Gustav Forsling (D) Chicago Blackhawks 43 3 6 9 0.21 30 -9
Carl Dahlström (D) Chicago Blackhawks 38 0 6 6 0.16 6 9
Patrik Nemeth (D) Colorado Avalanche 74 1 9 10 0.14 53 5
Niklas Hjalmarsson (D) Arizona Coyotes 82 0 10 10 0.12 44 8
Jonathan Ericsson (D) Detroit Red Wings 52 3 2 5 0.10 35 -10

 

[jfc64]

@vivalavili There are nothing wrong in your chosen milestones if wanting compare amounts of high end players. Hard to think more simpler and objective stats for that.

Sweden's defensemen crop out-defend both Finland and Russia days-in days-out, AINEC.

General consensus has been already some 30 years that Finland is one of the greatest hockey countries in the world, so that's something nobody start disagree now. Part of that greatness comes from the fact Finns are and have been consistently over-represented relative to a size of player pool available for such small population.

I would say Finland AND Sweden's 16 million people (and its hockey players) can compare with Canada's 36 million. Such a (hockey tradition) team might look a little like this:

Patrik Laine - Aleksander Barkov - William Nylander
Teuvo Teräväinen - Sebastian Aho - Mikko Rantanen
Gabriel Landeskog - Nicklas Bäckström - Elias Pettersson
Filip Forsberg - Mika Zibanejad - Mikael Granlund

Victor Hedman - Erik Karlsson
Oliver Ekman Larsson - Rasmus Ristolainen
Esa Lindell - John Klingberg

Tuuka Rask / Pekka Rinne / Henrik Lundqqvist


And a second team while I'm at it:

Gustav Nyquist - Elias Lindholm - Kaapo Kakko
Rickard Rakell - William Karlsson - Viktor Arvidsson
Sakari Manninen - Mikko Koivu - Kasperi Kapanen
Marcus Johansson - Mikael Backlund – Marko Anttila

Hampus Lindholm - Olli Määttä
Mattias Ekholm - Anton Strålman
Jonas Brodin - Adam Larsson

Robin Lehner / Kevin Lankkinen / Mikko Koskinen

 

[RageQuit77]

@jfc64 Oh-YAY! Storebror and Lillabror could kick some arses together. Team Fennoscandia!

Under guidance of Jalonen and co. of course.

 

[Lartsaman]

Finland surpassing Sweden is simply not true and nobody in Finland thinks so. Sweden is still a way ahead.

Swedish media loves to bash their team when they fail. That happens also in Finland. Thats how the media works and it sucks a big time.

 

[Chimpradamus]

A better conclusion would be that the Swedish media has mastered the clickbait garbage "articles".

 

[karhukissa]

It does look even but the bad news is you need 20 players. How does it looks like then?

It's not about best vs best like i've said million times. Best vs Best Sweden would get better team at the moment, that's for sure.

But for the last time, Finland is producing more top end talent right now. So third after Canada and USA.

It doesn't mean that Finland will surpass Sweden, because we can't know how these prospects will play in the NHL. But right now i wouldn't say it's impossible that Finland surpasses Sweden in few years if things continue like this. Sweden's going to always have an edge with their d-men against ours, but not that big than it used to be with Karlsson's and Hedman's vs our Vatanen&co

I don't understand why Swedish media is doing so, probably clickbaiting or trolling. But in the near future tables definetly can turn.

 

[Eye of Ra]

its even. we are equally good.

 

[sooni]

It is not even freaking close to be even... Sweden is still miles ahead of us. Maybe next 3 years will take us over them, but at this point we are not even close. This thread is not worth of time.

 

[smitty10]

I don't think they have. It's much closer than it's ever been, but take a look at the depth of defensemen that Sweden puts out. These guys are among the best in the world, quite like Finland's goaltending. I would rate Sweden's group of forwards over Finland's too due to the depth of Sweden.

Here are the National Teams that I put together for each. Which would you rather have?

Sweden:

Forsberg-Backstrom-Nyquist
Landeskog-Petterson-Arvidsson
Rakell-Zibanejad-Lindholm
Johnsson-Karlsson-Hornqvist
Nylander

Hedman-Karlsson
Ekholm-Klingberg
Ekman Larsson-Dahlin
Gustafsson

Lundquist
Markstrom
Lehner

Finland:

Teravainen-Barkov-Rantanen
Granlund-Aho-Laine
Kapanen-Koivu-Donskoi
Komarov-Filppula-Armia
Haula

Lindell-Ristolainen
Heiskanen-Vatanen
Nuutivara-Maata
Jokiharju

Rinne
Rask
Raanta

 

[Brun0]

Top talent is definetly been turning to finland

Look at next 4 drafts finland has super talents coming

 

[karhukissa]

Top talent is definetly been turning to finland

Look at next 4 drafts finland has super talents coming

Yes exactly, tables are slowly turning since the best Swedes are aging and best Finns are just about to turn 25 or less.

But for now Sweden is a clear #1 in Europe. Teams like Leksand and Frölunda are doing incredible job with youth development.

 

[Brun0]

I don't think they have. It's much closer than it's ever been, but take a look at the depth of defensemen that Sweden puts out. These guys are among the best in the world, quite like Finland's goaltending. I would rate Sweden's group of forwards over Finland's too due to the depth of Sweden.

Here are the National Teams that I put together for each. Which would you rather have?

Sweden:

Forsberg-Backstrom-Nyquist
Landeskog-Petterson-Arvidsson
Rakell-Zibanejad-Lindholm
Johnsson-Karlsson-Hornqvist
Nylander

Hedman-Karlsson
Ekholm-Klingberg
Ekman Larsson-Dahlin
Gustafsson

Lundquist
Markstrom
Lehner

Finland:

Teravainen-Barkov-Rantanen
Granlund-Aho-Laine
Kapanen-Koivu-Donskoi
Komarov-Filppula-Armia
Haula

Lindell-Ristolainen
Heiskanen-Vatanen
Nuutivara-Maata
Jokiharju

Rinne
Rask
Raanta

Laine-barkov-kapanen
Kakko-kotkaniemi-Hintz
Terävainen-Aho-Granlund
Lehkonen-Koivu-Armia
Komarov-haula-filppula

Heiskanen-lindell
Ristolainen-nutivaara
Jokiharju-Vatanen
Niku-Valimaki

Rask
Rinne

 

[Erikfromfin]

Post World Champs team revision


Patrik Laine - Aleksander Barkov - Mikael Granlund
Teuvo Teräväinen - Sebastian Aho - Mikko Rantanen
Roope Hintz - Mikko Koivu(C) - Kasperi Kapanen
Erik Haula - Valtteri Filppula(A) - Marko Anttila(A)
Jesperi Kotkaniemi
Kaapo Kakko

Miro Heiskanen - Rasmus Ristolainen
Esa Lindell - Sami Vatanen
Markus Nutivaara - Henri Jokiharju
Olli Määttä - Jani Hakanpää

Tuukka Rask
Pekka Rinne
Antti Raanta

Jukka Jalonen

 

[RageQuit77]

Post World Champs team revision


Patrik Laine - Aleksander Barkov - Mikael Granlund
Teuvo Teräväinen - Sebastian Aho - Mikko Rantanen
Roope Hintz - Mikko Koivu(C) - Kasperi Kapanen
Erik Haula - Valtteri Filppula(A) - Marko Anttila(A)
Jesperi Kotkaniemi
Kaapo Kakko

Miro Heiskanen - Rasmus Ristolainen
Esa Lindell - Sami Vatanen
Markus Nutivaara - Henri Jokiharju
Olli Määttä - Jani Hakanpää

Tuukka Rask
Pekka Rinne
Antti Raanta

Jukka Jalonen

Right. There will be roster spot for Mörkö as long as he plays!

I would also make him Captain of The Team Finland for rest of his career. He is more likely available than Mikko, and also represents better Finnish core rosters that will be available also in the future. Its already established that expecting Finnish NHL players to come when needed is the lost cause. (nothing against Mikko here, but I think the message now).

 

[Czechboy]

I see it as a big 5. Any of those Nations could win a best on best (not bullshit world cup) and it would not be a surprise. Ranking them is pointless as they can all produce an amazing team. After that it comes down to intangibles like luck, a hot goalie, bad call, a hit forward, injury to star player


The swedish d machine is unreal though.

As far as Czechs vs swiss. Swiss are improving and a lot more fun to watch but there draft numbers are very low. I've shown the stats before but it's usually a first rounder and 2 other late pucks. I'm not sure if they've had 10;guys drafted in last 3 or 4 years combined? Not that this draft is looking good for Czechs this year or something to brag about at all. Plus no NHL goalie to my knowledge for the Swiss?

In either case... Hockey would be better if the Swiss, Czechs, Slovak, germans etc ALL got considerably better. It's a 5 team sport which is insanely small. Makes us about as comeptitve as cricket or rugby.

Looking at top 50 in soccer and I see Italy and Germany in the teens. What is the 17th ranked hockey nation?

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I see it as a big 5. Any of those Nations could win a best on best (not bull**** world cup) and it would not be a surprise. Ranking them is pointless as they can all produce an amazing team. After that it comes down to intangibles like luck, a hot goalie, bad call, a hit forward, injury to star player


The swedish d machine is unreal though.

As far as Czechs vs swiss. Swiss are improving and a lot more fun to watch but there draft numbers are very low. I've shown the stats before but it's usually a first rounder and 2 other late pucks. I'm not sure if they've had 10;guys drafted in last 3 or 4 years combined? Not that this draft is looking good for Czechs this year or something to brag about at all. Plus no NHL goalie to my knowledge for the Swiss?

In either case... Hockey would be better if the Swiss, Czechs, Slovak, germans etc ALL got considerably better. It's a 5 team sport which is insanely small. Makes us about as comeptitve as cricket or rugby.

Looking at top 50 in soccer and I see Italy and Germany in the teens. What is the 17th ranked hockey nation?

I think there are only about half a dozen teams who can realistically win gold in hockey and soccer also.