Player Discussion Suzuki vs Kotkaniemi

[Habano]

If KK is a bust what would you call a player like Barrett Hayton(#5) or Vitali Kravtsov(#9)???? KK may never become a elite center. He is still a decent nhl player.

yup and don't forget Kakko at 2nd overall. Anyway KK is gone and a lot of his haters said Dvorak would make us forget KK. I'm still waiting for that offensive dynamo Dvorak to prove them right. Some even claimed he would get 60-70 pts

I would much rather have a 21 year old with a higher ceiling who can throw hits at 6.1mil. for one year than a 26 year old creampuff at 4.5mil for another 3 painstaking years. It's not like his offensive potential is any higher than KK's. He's a miserable bum who's afraid of his own shadow. There, I said it!

 

[Habaddict]

I still believe that Suzi could be a great #2C. And KK could be a
true #1C. But that was destroyed when they brought KK to training
camp. 18 year old progect . Why try to destroy his carrear by forcing
him to come to NHL camp. He should never been close to an NHL
player for 2 more years. He could have been a very good NHL center,
if they had kept him away from the NHL for at least 2 years.

 

[Rob Sense]

yup and don't forget Kakko at 2nd overall. Anyway KK is gone and a lot of his haters said Dvorak would make us forget KK. I'm still waiting for that offensive dynamo Dvorak to prove them right. Some even claimed he would get 60-70 pts

I would much rather have a 21 year old with a higher ceiling who can throw hits at 6.1mil. for one year than a 26 year old creampuff at 4.5mil for another 3 painstaking years. It's not like his offensive potential is any higher than KK's. He's a miserable bum who's afraid of his own shadow. There, I said it!

The Habs were forced to trade for someone like Dvorak after losing KK and Danault. This year was a write off but i think he is better than what we saw with DD and his injuries. Otherwise it is a toss-up between a flakey 21 year old center who can't play center and has a hard time with skating vs a guy who can play center and wins face-offs granted he will not be a #1 center. He was brought in to fill an unexpected mole...uh...hole.

 

[BLONG7]

Let's be real, KK is not a bust just because of the Habs, we reached by picking him early and brought him up too early.

Bang on.......................the kid is still only 21 for gods sake.....
Wrong pick, and brought up at the wrong time...............none of which is on him....

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

Try again. Teams need PMD D who can run a PP to get into the playoffs and be successful once they get in. Hughes only PO he had 16pts in 17 games and was +2. This team needs a guy like this badly.

Fake news. Try again

 

[Habby4Life]

View attachment 521087
Fake news. Try again

Haha, a PPG D, nope don’t need those guys. But a 30pt 3/4c that can’t skate or stay up on his feet, yeah that’s exactly the type of guy the habs need.

Thankfully the new regime will draft BPA and avoid drafting projects that are head cases with these high picks.

 

[Habby4Life]

Bang on.......................the kid is still only 21 for gods sake.....
Wrong pick, and brought up at the wrong time...............none of which is on him....

He’s only 21, he’s only 22, he’s only 23!!!

He was a shit pick with a bunch of flaws that still exist today. New coach, new linemates, same 4th line KK.

The habs did it twice, drafted flawed head cases 3ova because of positional need, hopefully moving forward, the new regime will weed these turds out and not make the same mistakes.

 

[sandviper]

The Habs were forced to trade for someone like Dvorak after losing KK and Danault.

I forget the timelines, but I do think MB knew Weber wasn't coming back. He should have had a feeling about Price also, but I don't know.

Thus, the urgency of trading for Dvorak to me anyways was unnecessary. We were going to be terrible without Weber and Price. I get we'd be destroyed with Suzuki, Poehling and Evans up the middle but we were getting train wrecked anyways during DD's time.

That said, I'm not terribly upset about losing a 2022 #27-#32 pick with Dvorak as his contract isn't bad and I think he's better than he's shown.

 

[LaP]

View attachment 521087
Fake news. Try again

The kid was -2 in his FIRST playoffs appearance. Big deal. I'm speechless that someone would argue this was a bad playoffs run for him as a 20 years old dman.

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

Haha, a PPG D, nope don’t need those guys. But a 30pt 3/4c that can’t skate or stay up on his feet, yeah that’s exactly the type of guy the habs need.

Thankfully the new regime will draft BPA and avoid drafting projects that are head cases with these high picks.

I can disagree with you Hughes take and agree with your other take at the same time. I personally am not a fan of D men who may produce well, but cant play D. In the playoffs, especially when you're on the road, the opposing coach will feast on you all day. Look at Karlsson. When he was having his mvp seasons, who was his partner, Marc Methot. They needed a complete stay at home D with no offensive ability whatsoever to partner with him cause he was such a liability. I personally prefer to have someone in the mold of a Weber who can contribute offensively (either ES and/or PP) and shut down the opposition in all situations

 

[Ozmodiar]

I forget the timelines, but I do think MB knew Weber wasn't coming back. He should have had a feeling about Price also, but I don't know.

Thus, the urgency of trading for Dvorak to me anyways was unnecessary. We were going to be terrible without Weber and Price. I get we'd be destroyed with Suzuki, Poehling and Evans up the middle but we were getting train wrecked anyways during DD's time.

That said, I'm not terribly upset about losing a 2022 #27-#32 pick with Dvorak as his contract isn't bad and I think he's better than he's shown.

Yeah, if they kept the pick, and addressed the need at center with that pick, they’d likely select a 3rd C anyway. Probably better to have a more seasoned guy (dvo) to take the load off Suzuki / Wright (?).

We’ll see what DVo brings throughout an injury free season.

 

[Tetragrammaton]

How is this a debate? Suzuki is worth 4 Kotkaniemies right now.

 

[JianYang]

I can disagree with you Hughes take and agree with your other take at the same time. I personally am not a fan of D men who may produce well, but cant play D. In the playoffs, especially when you're on the road, the opposing coach will feast on you all day. Look at Karlsson. When he was having his mvp seasons, who was his partner, Marc Methot. They needed a complete stay at home D with no offensive ability whatsoever to partner with him cause he was such a liability. I personally prefer to have someone in the mold of a Weber who can contribute offensively (either ES and/or PP) and shut down the opposition in all situations

Yeah, I don't consider a hughes kind of player a franchise dman. Hes someone you want on your team, but not as the guy your defense is built around.

I think the canucks are strong upfront, and incredibly strong in goal. Defense is their weak link.

 

[Habano]

The Habs were forced to trade for someone like Dvorak after losing KK and Danault. This year was a write off but i think he is better than what we saw with DD and his injuries. Otherwise it is a toss-up between a flakey 21 year old center who can't play center and has a hard time with skating vs a guy who can play center and wins face-offs granted he will not be a #1 center. He was brought in to fill an unexpected mole...uh...hole.

I have no issue with the reason he was brought in. I'm simply pointing out that his fanboys, who were ecstatic and convinced we had gotten a real gem are no where to be seen but, they seize any opportunity to crap on KK.

Imo, the flakey 21 year old is still a better and faster skater than the lead footed creampuff. KK's face off % has improved substantially (51.84%) and it's only gonna get better as he matures. I think we've seen exactly what Dvorak brings because his NHL stats prove that his ceiling is a 30-35 point slow and soft forward. I hope you're right that he'll be better next season because we're stuck with him for another 3 years.

 

[Ozmodiar]

How is this a debate? Suzuki is worth 4 Kotkaniemies right now.

this tread, while entertaining, didn’t age very well.

Perhaps it should be Suzuki Pitlick vs Kotkaniemi?

 

[BLONG7]

He’s only 21, he’s only 22, he’s only 23!!!

He was a shit pick with a bunch of flaws that still exist today. New coach, new linemates, same 4th line KK.

The habs did it twice, drafted flawed head cases 3ova because of positional need, hopefully moving forward, the new regime will weed these turds out and not make the same mistakes.

You are right somewhat...........they did pick wrongly for need, instead of BPA, easily agree there...........clown GM doing that.............as for KK, he is a project, but where we disagree is will he or wont he be a good player, and I think he will become a good player, and this is a good deal for both parties.

 

[Zorba]

You are right somewhat...........they did pick wrongly for need, instead of BPA, easily agree there...........clown GM doing that.............as for KK, he is a project, but where we disagree is will he or wont he be a good player, and I think he will become a good player, and this is a good deal for both parties.

Lol The project theory If you need 6-8 year to develop, well you’re just not talented enough
Project, bad coaching , terrible linemates Kotkaniemi defenders have every excuse except the main one, he’s just not that good It’s plain and simple

 

[Burke the Legend]

Difficult to judge any 2021-2022 hab player performance pre-MSL. The whole thing under Ducharme was such a mess then day 1 after he's fired and replaced the team looks like a new one.

As for KK I don't really want to write my own scouting report so I say leave it to the pros because even they have very different opinions. Opinion 1 is the Canes who made a HUGE bet on him with the initial signing and now extension that he will improve in the multiple areas he has weakness in and putting his total game together to breakout. That's obviously the opinion of their front office, to invest so much in him. Opinion 2 is the Habs' (previous) front office who saw him play for previous 3 years with front row seat to all his struggles, saw the offer sheet, had the option to match and decided that breakout potential was not so certain/not worth the price. They decided to salvage the assets by parlaying them into Dvorak a more established but still young middle 9 centre with some upside.

Who was correct on KK? Time will tell. I do remember the poll here where it was like 80% in favour of letting him walk which is pretty telling that even HFboards where the cliches that youth and potential are overvalued was so tilted to letting him go, Habs fans who also watched him for 3 years clearly thought the potential wasn't that great.

 

[Tetragrammaton]

this tread, while entertaining, didn’t age very well.

Perhaps it should be Suzuki Pitlick vs Kotkaniemi?

Pitlick is the superior player until proven otherwise. I like KK but he’s still at about the same level of production he was in his rookie season.

 

[Le Tricolore]

This thread doesn't need to exist. Just use the out of town thread to discuss players not on the Canadiens.