WWE: Surivor Series: WarGames 2023

[Grackle Party]

If your argument is "If Orange Cassidy isn't a draw than neither is Seth Rollins", then we can just stop right now. Seth Rollins is a much bigger draw than Orange Cassidy ever has been and very likely ever will be.

But hey, if you want "Main stream" stuff, Rollins did the schedule release video for the Bears and apparently has a role in the next Captain America movie. (I'm sure it's not a major one) What kind of big outside AEW stuff has Orange Cassidy done?

You keep mentioning OC. The only name I mentioned is Seth Rollins. I dont think the average guy on the street would know who he is but maybe that's a bad example as he is borderline main stream.

I just want to know where the data is on who is a draw, another poster pointed out that its simple yet no one has presented any facts

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

You keep mentioning OC. The only name I mentioned is Seth Rollins. I dont think the average guy on the street would know who he is but maybe that's a bad example as he is borderline main stream.

I just want to know where the data is on who is a draw, another poster pointed out that its simple yet no one has presented any facts

Say again?

Darby, Orange Cassidy, and the Acclaimed are all home grown, featured and huge merch movers... just saying

 

[Grackle Party]

Say again?

A post from a few days ago?

I think I answered my own question though

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

A post from a few days ago?

I think I answered my own question though

It was less than 24 hours ago, and you're the one who named him as one of their homegrown stars. Don't be mad that I pulled guys you named as examples.

Tell you what though, since you're confident AEW's top end stacks up to WWE in terms of drawing power, you're more than welcome to post a combined ranking of the two rosters in terms of drawing power. You can even omit Roman from the list to try to make it fair.

 

[Grackle Party]

It was less than 24 hours ago, and you're the one who named him as one of their homegrown stars. Don't be mad that I pulled guys you named as examples.

Tell you what though, since you're confident AEW's top end stacks up to WWE in terms of drawing power, you're more than welcome to post a combined ranking of the two rosters in terms of drawing power. You can even omit Roman from the list to try to make it fair.

All I asked for was data. You are adding conjecture and assumptions.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

All I asked for was data. You are adding conjecture and assumptions.

No, you made a smart comment asking about data because you know "Drawing power" isn't necessarily a measurable statistic, (At least without an absurd amount of research, and even then things such as ratings and ticket sales are subject to interpretation) and you think that because nobody can provide irrefutable and absolute numbers, that it validates the claim that those guys draw.

Again, you're more than welcome to make a combined ranking of WWE talent and AEW talent for "Drawing power".

Hell, I'd love to see a women's ranking.

 

[Brodeur]

Unfortunately I was away at dinner and my buddy inadvertently spoiled the ending.

Enjoyed the women's War Games match, thought it could have been a nice callback if they had Tegan Nox do a spot with Dakota Kai on the outside but perhaps the latter can't risk a light bump at this point.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

No, you made a smart comment asking about data because you know "Drawing power" isn't necessarily a measurable statistic, (At least without an absurd amount of research, and even then things such as ratings and ticket sales are subject to interpretation) and you think that because nobody can provide irrefutable and absolute numbers, that it validates the claim that those guys draw.

Again, you're more than welcome to make a combined ranking of WWE talent and AEW talent for "Drawing power".

Hell, I'd love to see a women's ranking.

It is tough to quantify for us run-of-the-mill fans because we do not have in-house data.

However, it is pretty easy to quantity:

- Merch sold (probably the most direct one)
- Social media views/reaction
- Ratings on TV shows (how do they impact their quarter + the following one in a long period of time)
- PPV sales for when they main-event/are featured in a big match.
- Ticket sold for events in which they are the main "selling point" (does not apply that much these days, but for AEW in Montreal for example, you could look at the ticket sales before and after the Edge vs Christian announcement)

A guy like OC definitely moves merch. He is not good for live TV ratings and I would be surprised if anyone bought tickets to see an advertised match of is. Is he a guy you can build the company around? Probably not. That being said, even if he has strong metrics, Punk is probably not a guy you can trust long term. Rollins is, even though he won't be the draw a Roman Reigns is.

It is complex analysis unless it is obvious. The real needle movers are easy to spot. People that have more value than we instinctively think is a more difficult proposition.

 

[GKJ]

Unfortunately I was away at dinner and my buddy inadvertently spoiled the ending.

Enjoyed the women's War Games match, thought it could have been a nice callback if they had Tegan Nox do a spot with Dakota Kai on the outside but perhaps the latter can't risk a light bump at this point.

If she could’ve done anything, she likely would’ve been in the match and they do 5v5, then maybe Tegan is in it.

 

[Brodeur]

If she could’ve done anything, she likely would’ve been in the match and they do 5v5, then maybe Tegan is in it.

I thought when Dakota was poking Becky with the kendo stick early in the match that Tegan could have done a run-in and did a schmozz spot which required the refs to break it up. But they needed Dakota for later to retrieve the trash can for Iyo. That and the call back probably wouldn't have gotten a big reaction.

But I'm sure with HHH in change of creative, they'll use that for a feud eventually. I remember the Dakota/Tegan Takeover match happening right before the pandemic so that felt like it was lost with time.

 

[GKJ]

I thought when Dakota was poking Becky with the kendo stick early in the match that Tegan could have done a run-in and did a schmozz spot which required the refs to break it up. But they needed Dakota for later to retrieve the trash can for Iyo. That and the call back probably wouldn't have gotten a big reaction.

But I'm sure with HHH in change of creative, they'll use that for a feud eventually. I remember the Dakota/Tegan Takeover match happening right before the pandemic so that felt like it was lost with time.

Yeah, that was the show in Portland in February I think.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

It is tough to quantify for us run-of-the-mill fans because we do not have in-house data.

However, it is pretty easy to quantity:

- Merch sold (probably the most direct one)
- Social media views/reaction
- Ratings on TV shows (how do they impact their quarter + the following one in a long period of time)
- PPV sales for when they main-event/are featured in a big match.
- Ticket sold for events in which they are the main "selling point" (does not apply that much these days, but for AEW in Montreal for example, you could look at the ticket sales before and after the Edge vs Christian announcement)

A guy like OC definitely moves merch. He is not good for live TV ratings and I would be surprised if anyone bought tickets to see an advertised match of is. Is he a guy you can build the company around? Probably not. That being said, even if he has strong metrics, Punk is probably not a guy you can trust long term. Rollins is, even though he won't be the draw a Roman Reigns is.

It is complex analysis unless it is obvious. The real needle movers are easy to spot. People that have more value than we instinctively think is a more difficult proposition.

Merch sold and maybe social media views are the only ones I think you can really individualize. Even then, merch sold is hard to gauge between two different companies. I don't believe WWE releases raw numbers beyond ranking their sellers and I don't know if AEW does either. (Do they still primarily go through PWT?) So, if LA Knight is WWE's #4 merch seller, does he still outsell AEW's #1 merch seller? We don't really know.

Another thing to consider with merch, though I don't know if this is still a thing... During Punk's last run, I believe it was Konnan that noted WWE was still claiming Cena was their top merch seller even though Punk was selling out merch booths and Cena still had product at the end of the night. Basically they were saying WWE was releasing way more Cena gear compared to Punk gear, so Punk would "Sell out" and his total would be capped, while Cena had more merch to actually sell.

Ratings you can look at trends, but at the end of the day there's still a lot you can question. If you shared a quarter with another segment, which one caused the dip/spike? Did a quarter decline/raise because of the person/people in that quarter, or because of the quarter that preceded or followed it? For instance, if OC follows MJF and his quarter dips, does it indicate OC is a ratings killer, or did it just dip because MJF is a proven draw?

I'd have to go back through some historical quarterly ratings, which are hard to find if you're not paying Brandon Thurston. But the two AEW trends that are well documented are that MJF consistently pops a rating (Or the audience falls off after his segment ends) and The Young Bucks consistently kill a quarter.

Tickets sold are hard to gauge too, simply based on the fact that they can be influenced by the overall product. For instance, attendance is pretty much the worst it's ever been for AEW with MJF on top, but there's really no question that MJF is the top draw in the company.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Merch sold and maybe social media views are the only ones I think you can really individualize. Even then, merch sold is hard to gauge between two different companies. I don't believe WWE releases raw numbers beyond ranking their sellers and I don't know if AEW does either. (Do they still primarily go through PWT?) So, if LA Knight is WWE's #4 merch seller, does he still outsell AEW's #1 merch seller? We don't really know.

Another thing to consider with merch, though I don't know if this is still a thing... During Punk's last run, I believe it was Konnan that noted WWE was still claiming Cena was their top merch seller even though Punk was selling out merch booths and Cena still had product at the end of the night. Basically they were saying WWE was releasing way more Cena gear compared to Punk gear, so Punk would "Sell out" and his total would be capped, while Cena had more merch to actually sell.

Ratings you can look at trends, but at the end of the day there's still a lot you can question. If you shared a quarter with another segment, which one caused the dip/spike? Did a quarter decline/raise because of the person/people in that quarter, or because of the quarter that preceded or followed it? For instance, if OC follows MJF and his quarter dips, does it indicate OC is a ratings killer, or did it just dip because MJF is a proven draw?

I'd have to go back through some historical quarterly ratings, which are hard to find if you're not paying Brandon Thurston. But the two AEW trends that are well documented are that MJF consistently pops a rating (Or the audience falls off after his segment ends) and The Young Bucks consistently kill a quarter.

Tickets sold are hard to gauge too, simply based on the fact that they can be influenced by the overall product. For instance, attendance is pretty much the worst it's ever been for AEW with MJF on top, but there's really no question that MJF is the top draw in the company.

Yup, it is very hard to quantify because we do not have the internal numbers nor context. So, unless it is VERY obvious, it is hard to know.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Cole clearly knew

 

[Jussi]

Cole clearly knew

HHH: "Hey, Michael, we got CM Punk coming out, don't say anything. Dance if you feel like it."

 

[Fro]

Saw a couple reels showing Stephanie at ringside...don't remember seeing her or reading that anywhere

 

[93gilmour93]

People can like him or not but he seriously moves the needle in pro wrestling better than most. He’s a polarizing guy and you never know what’s going to happen around him and that’s the kind of edge missing from wrestling. Can’t wait to hear what he has to say on RAW….

 

[GKJ]

Cole clearly knew

Not only did he know but he’s marking out to the degree that he is able to

 

[Megahab]

But hey, if you want "Main stream" stuff, Rollins did the schedule release video for the Bears and apparently has a role in the next Captain America movie. (I'm sure it's not a major one) What kind of big outside AEW stuff has Orange Cassidy done?

I don't think any of that means people outside wrestling know who Rollins is.

I think if you ask a random person (non-wrestling fan) on the street, chances are they don't know who Rollins or Reigns are. I'm not saying that doesn't make them draws though.

 

[TD Charlie]

I would say at least HALF of what makes a guy/gal a draw, is the company they're in.

you guys can all argue about who draws and who doesn't, but the truth lies in the history of the company. It's not fair to ignore the longevity of the WWE. The numbers they pulled for a few years, I wanna say maybe 98-2001 were staggering. Being a household name makes it much easier for them to generate quick media buzz. You could switch rosters entirely tomorrow night, and I still think all of the shows get roughly the same ratings they did last week

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I would say at least HALF of what makes a guy/gal a draw, is the company they're in.

you guys can all argue about who draws and who doesn't, but the truth lies in the history of the company. It's not fair to ignore the longevity of the WWE. The numbers they pulled for a few years, I wanna say maybe 98-2001 were staggering. Being a household name makes it much easier for them to generate quick media buzz. You could switch rosters entirely tomorrow night, and I still think all of the shows get roughly the same ratings they did last week

I tend to agree to a large degree. The brand names are bigger than any individual stars at this point, especially in WWE's case.

A guy like Punk was bigger than AEW, but he is the exception.

 

[TD Charlie]

I tend to agree to a large degree. The brand names are bigger than any individual stars at this point, especially in WWE's case.

A guy like Punk was bigger than AEW, but he is the exception.

Agreed, that was a very strange exception too. I don't think anybody, all time, could ever do the reverse of that and be able to jump to WWE and already be able to say they transcend the company.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I would say at least HALF of what makes a guy/gal a draw, is the company they're in.

you guys can all argue about who draws and who doesn't, but the truth lies in the history of the company. It's not fair to ignore the longevity of the WWE. The numbers they pulled for a few years, I wanna say maybe 98-2001 were staggering. Being a household name makes it much easier for them to generate quick media buzz. You could switch rosters entirely tomorrow night, and I still think all of the shows get roughly the same ratings they did last week

I don't disagree with the idea of the company adding to drawing power. Which kinda adds to the point. I seriously doubt WWE could give two shits about Orange Cassidy or Hangman or The Young Bucks to push any of them.

Omega doesn't fit their mold, but has an aura of stardom that would get him a good spot. Kind of a more indy-style AJ.

Jay White, I think, is somebody they'd sign and then push momentarily until the buzz wore off, and then he'd pretty much be a Ricochet-type. He's there, he's a good hand, but he's basically just filling time and giving whoever you actually want to push a good match.

Darby, I think, is a star. I think he could be a star in WWE, but I question how well they'd work together. I don't think he'd get over reciting a writer's message, and I think WWE would (Wisely) want to tone down his reckless style, too.

I don't agree that a roster swap wouldn't affect the ratings though. WWE would still beat AEW, but I think the gap would narrow considerably.

 

[TD Charlie]

I don't disagree with the idea of the company adding to drawing power. Which kinda adds to the point. I seriously doubt WWE could give two shits about Orange Cassidy or Hangman or The Young Bucks to push any of them.

Omega doesn't fit their mold, but has an aura of stardom that would get him a good spot. Kind of a more indy-style AJ.

Jay White, I think, is somebody they'd sign and then push momentarily until the buzz wore off, and then he'd pretty much be a Ricochet-type. He's there, he's a good hand, but he's basically just filling time and giving whoever you actually want to push a good match.

Darby, I think, is a star. I think he could be a star in WWE, but I question how well they'd work together. I don't think he'd get over reciting a writer's message, and I think WWE would (Wisely) want to tone down his reckless style, too.

I don't agree that a roster swap wouldn't affect the ratings though. WWE would still beat AEW, but I think the gap would narrow considerably.

I bet it would take quite a while though. The draw is Monday Night Raw, it's not the Judgment Day or Seth Rollins. They can trot out mid carders and jobbers for 3 hours and they'll pull the same viewership as always.

No, I don't think WWE gives a hoot about 90 percent of the AEW roster either. But it's not because they wouldn't be able to make good money together, it's just that they aren't needed or there's no room. It's still difficult, and dishonest to compare drawing power of guys in two different companies. Is Roman Reigns a draw because he's Roman Reigns, or because WWE told us for 5 straight years that he was that guy? If Hangman was in the place of Reigns for that amount of time, with that exposure, can they do similar business?

it's hard to explain and I'm probably butchering it. I just think the whole "this guy doesn't draw" argument is dishonest. I watched CM Punk run a feud with Ryback for longer than I care to admit, and I have nothing positive to say about Ryback. I don't consider Ryback to be a draw.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I bet it would take quite a while though. The draw is Monday Night Raw, it's not the Judgment Day or Seth Rollins. They can trot out mid carders and jobbers for 3 hours and they'll pull the same viewership as always.

No, I don't think WWE gives a hoot about 90 percent of the AEW roster either. But it's not because they wouldn't be able to make good money together, it's just that they aren't needed or there's no room. It's still difficult, and dishonest to compare drawing power of guys in two different companies. Is Roman Reigns a draw because he's Roman Reigns, or because WWE told us for 5 straight years that he was that guy? If Hangman was in the place of Reigns for that amount of time, with that exposure, can they do similar business?

it's hard to explain and I'm probably butchering it. I just think the whole "this guy doesn't draw" argument is dishonest. I watched CM Punk run a feud with Ryback for longer than I care to admit, and I have nothing positive to say about Ryback. I don't consider Ryback to be a draw.

Roman has a star aura that Hangman (And most people, really) only wishes he had lol. Maybe a better comparison would be Rollins/Hangman? I don't consider Rollins that great a promo, honestly, though he's an incredible worker. I think he's mainly over to this degree as a face because of a decade of consistently good performances, and a theme fans love. His actual character blows.

Side note: Ryback was a brief draw until everybody realized he sucked and was an asshole lol. There are lots of guys that can draw for 3-6 months and then fall off. The real stars are the guys who sustain it.