Sundin or Kariya- who is better?

[Big Phil]

Sundin for me. His career value beats out Kariya. Sundin was too good for too long to be ignored into the HHOF. Kariya on the other hand had a brief peak - albeit a great peak - but became irrelevant overnight. That hurts. Plus his playoff record is abysmal.

 

[MS]

Sundin for me. His career value beats out Kariya. Sundin was too good for too long to be ignored into the HHOF. Kariya on the other hand had a brief peak - albeit a great peak - but became irrelevant overnight. That hurts. Plus his playoff record is abysmal.

I'd agree that Sundin takes Kariya based on career value - his consistency over nearly 20 years is amazing.

However, you're selling Kariya pretty short here.

His 5-year prime (1995-2000) isn't *that* short, and was very, very elite. Better than Perreault or Hawerchuk or Savard or Sittler or a lot of guys who are easily HHOFers.

And he wasn't nearly as bad in the years after that as it seems - he's just judged harshly compared to his earlier success. From 2000-2007, aside from his nightmare season in Colorado, he was basically a point-per-game player in pretty lean offensive years league-wide. This isn't becoming 'irrelevant' - he still lead his teams in scoring most of those years and was a 2nd team All-Star in 2003.

Kariya is the definition of a player who suffers because his prime was so early in his career and ended up being a distant memory by the time his career was over (Roenick is in the same boat, and Rod Brind'Amour would be the opposite). I'd put in in the HHOF, no questions asked. A 1000+ point career in the dead puck era with that sort of peak is easily worthy.

 

[revolverjgw]

Neither will make the HOF. Ronnie Sundin played ONE NHL game, and Steve Kariya never played a full season. But at least Kariya played a regular shift for an NHL team, I'd take him.

 

[thefifthsedin*]

Neither will make the HOF. Ronnie Sundin played ONE NHL game, and Steve Kariya never played a full season. But at least Kariya played a regular shift for an NHL team, I'd take him.

also in a shutdown role?

wasn't ronnie sundin a member [although a very peripheral one?] of the 2006 swedish gold medal winning olympic team?

i'll take an olympic gold medal over a regular shift for any nhl team

 

[canucks4ever]

I fail to see how kariya's peak is any better than Hawerchuk, perrault or savard, he cracked the top 5 three times, big whoop. he did it when greztky was on the decline.

 

[SenorDingDong]

Sundin for sure based on consistency and International career.

Paul Kariya was awesome tho.

 

[MXD]

Sundin.

No support, carried the Leafs for the most of the last 20 years all by himself. Give him good wingers and he would have been truely dominate.

It's much closer to 10 than 20 but whatever.

 

[vippe]

It's much closer to 10 than 20 but whatever.

Sure 13 seasons of Toronto is closer to 10. But 17 seasons of great great play(not only in Toronto) is closer to 20 than 10.

 

[MS]

I fail to see how kariya's peak is any better than Hawerchuk, perrault or savard, he cracked the top 5 three times, big whoop. he did it when greztky was on the decline.

Yeah, he cracked the top-5 three times.

Perreault also did it 3 times, and Savard and Hawerchuk only did it twice. Take Gretzky out of the equation, and those numbers don't change, by the way.

Kariya was also a better defensive player than the notoriously one-dimensional Perreault and Savard, and probably roughly equal to Hawerchuk.

When you adjust point totals for era, he also has 3 of the top 4 seasons put up by that group of 4 players, and his 1998-99 campaign tops out as the best adjusted total by any of those players.

So, yeah, absolutely his peak was equal/better than those players.

 

[canucks4ever]

Yeah, he cracked the top-5 three times.

Perreault also did it 3 times, and Savard and Hawerchuk only did it twice. Take Gretzky out of the equation, and those numbers don't change, by the way.

Kariya was also a better defensive player than the notoriously one-dimensional Perreault and Savard, and probably roughly equal to Hawerchuk.

When you adjust point totals for era, he also has 3 of the top 4 seasons put up by that group of 4 players, and his 1998-99 campaign tops out as the best adjusted total by any of those players.

So, yeah, absolutely his peak was equal/better than those players.

Adjusted stats favours people from deadpuck era. The only reason why scoring seemed so low from 98-2004 was because of lack of secondary scoring. I fail to see how Kariya has 3 of the 4 best seasons when denis savard finished 3rd in scoring twice, with gretzky and lemeiux there.

In the 1998-99 season, 9 players scored over 90 points, yet the goals per game was 5.29. The reason was clearly lack of depth, the top stars were still scoring. Another thing, Kariya only finished 7th that year in ppg, which seems kinda poor because this is supposed to be his prime.

 

[MS]

Adjusted stats favours people from deadpuck era. The only reason why scoring seemed so low from 98-2004 was because of lack of secondary scoring. I fail to see how Kariya has 3 of the 4 best seasons when denis savard finished 3rd in scoring twice, with gretzky and lemeiux there.

In the 1998-99 season, 9 players scored over 90 points, yet the goals per game was 5.29. The reason was clearly lack of depth, the top stars were still scoring. Another thing, Kariya only finished 7th that year in ppg, which seems kinda poor because this is supposed to be his prime.

This is just completely incorrect.

In 1984-85, the year Hawerchuk had his best season, there were 23 players scoring over 90 points.

The notion that star players were scoring at a similar rate in 1999 as they were at any point from 1979-1994 is just false. It wasn't even close.

 

[canucks4ever]

This is just completely incorrect.

In 1984-85, the year Hawerchuk had his best season, there were 23 players scoring over 90 points.

The notion that star players were scoring at a similar rate in 1999 as they were at any point from 1979-1994 is just false. It wasn't even close.

Joe Sakic was in the NHL from 1990-1994, and during the high scoring 2006 season, tell me why didn't his stats all of a sudden sky rocket? Adjusted stats on hockey reference suggests that Sakic was a better point producer than marcel dionne, yet he never scored more than 109 points during any 6 of those high scoring seasons?

Paul Kariya was a good player in his own right, but to suggest he outpeaked Hawerchuk, Savard and Perrault is a lie. All 3 of them made the hockey news top 60 since 67, kariya was left out. No there wasnt any 'old school bias' cuz Kariya's rival Pavel Bure was chosen to be on the list.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

obvious answers:

Joe Sakic was in the NHL from 1990-1994, and during the high scoring 2006 season, tell me why didn't his stats all of a sudden sky rocket? Adjusted stats on hockey reference suggests that Sakic was a better point producer than marcel dionne, yet he never scored more than 109 points during any 6 of those high scoring seasons?

sakic turned 36 during the 2005-'06 season. his highest scoring years were '95-'96 and '00-'01 because those years are basically the beginning and end of his prime. (note also that sakic's career high of 120 was pre-dead puck era, and that there were 12 100 point scorers, two others with 99, another with 98, another with 97, two with 96, and one with 95).

Paul Kariya was a good player in his own right, but to suggest he outpeaked Hawerchuk, Savard and Perrault is a lie. All 3 of them made the hockey news top 60 since 67, kariya was left out. No there wasnt any 'old school bias' cuz Kariya's rival Pavel Bure was chosen to be on the list.

kariya was left out because hawerchuk, savard, and perreault all had longer primes and fuller careers.

 

[canucks4ever]

obvious answers:



sakic turned 36 during the 2005-'06 season. his highest scoring years were '95-'96 and '00-'01 because those years are basically the beginning and end of his prime. (note also that sakic's career high of 120 was pre-dead puck era, and that there were 12 100 point scorers, two others with 99, another with 98, another with 97, two with 96, and one with 95).



kariya was left out because hawerchuk, savard, and perreault all had longer primes and fuller careers.

Yeah, still He wasn't better offensively than marcel. Adjusted stats always favour the post 1994 player. Marcel finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th in the scoring race. He was the superior point producer.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yeah, still He wasn't better offensively than marcel. Adjusted stats always favour the post 1994 player. Marcel finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th in the scoring race. He was the superior point producer.

i never claimed that sakic was better offensively than dionne. i was just answering your question:

Joe Sakic was in the NHL from 1990-1994, and during the high scoring 2006 season, tell me why didn't his stats all of a sudden sky rocket?

 

[MXD]

Sure 13 seasons of Toronto is closer to 10. But 17 seasons of great great play(not only in Toronto) is closer to 20 than 10.

I was going to make some linguistic nitpicking, but I won't as I realized you're from Sweden, and you're making efforts (like I do...) to write in english.

This said, being a very important part of a team that got basically nowhere in the last 13 years is not a reason in itself to get in. and international play isn't a factor.

 

[Fredrik_71]

I was going to make some linguistic nitpicking, but I won't as I realized you're from Sweden, and you're making efforts (like I do...) to write in english.

This said, being a very important part of a team that got basically nowhere in the last 13 years is not a reason in itself to get in. and international play isn't a factor.

The best reason for Sundin to get into the HHOF is his carrer stats. 25th on the all-time list. Maybe he will be 26th this year if Modano has a really good season. As for the discussion about adjusted stats concerning eras look at the following thred:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=675823&highlight=adjusted+stats+formula

/Cheers