Speculation: Summer 2018 Roster Discussion Part IV

[sampler]

lol Skinner scores 1.8 goals per 60 at 5 on 5 last season. With a rediculous 64% offensive zone starts. That’s terrible. He is a defensive liability and doesn’t score 5 on 5. You drop his ice time to 2nd, 3rd line minutes he would see here and stop sheltering him, and he is gonna be Boedker 2.0. Skinner is not a play-off archetype player - he will do well with the Sabres. But there is a reason his return was so low.

We did not want Skinner.

My list remains: Trouba, Panarin, Karlsson. And just for shiggles - Rick Nash on a sweetheart cup chasing contract. Skinner, Pacioretty, et al, are a disaster waiting to happen.

Good trio to target. I would add Seguin if he becomes available, as he is still not extended in Dallas and the Stars could well have a bad year. I would also add Stone if he is healthy and hits the market.

Skinner is not needed. Patches would be a disaster to resign (too much term and $$ required at too high an age). There are a few lesser names that mgiht be worth a swing for a lower price depending on how the year goes. Someone like Dzingel or Ferland might be worth a flyer for a 2nd rounder and mid-tier prospect.

 

[Juxtaposer]

lol Skinner scores 1.8 goals per 60 at 5 on 5 last season. With a rediculous 64% offensive zone starts. That’s terrible. He is a defensive liability and doesn’t score 5 on 5. You drop his ice time to 2nd, 3rd line minutes he would see here and stop sheltering him, and he is gonna be Boedker 2.0. Skinner is not a play-off archetype player - he will do well with the Sabres. But there is a reason his return was so low.

We did not want Skinner.

My list remains: Trouba, Panarin, Karlsson. And just for shiggles - Rick Nash on a sweetheart cup chasing contract. Skinner, Pacioretty, et al, are a disaster waiting to happen.

You claim Skinner is not a playoff archetype player and yet you want Panarin? Same style of player. Panarin is obviously much, much better but it’s insane to compare a guy who is one season removed from 37 goals to Mikkel fricking Boedker.

 

[sampler]

Actually, the comparison isnt completely off base. Skinner has always been a better finisher, but both played for crappy teams and were very suspect in terms of effort in the defensive half. Boedker came to SJ and immediately lost favor because he would lose every board battle in his own zone. He would use his speed far to sparingly and just floated alot. In the 2nd half last year and the PO's, he finally clicked. He started driving, finishing, and playing far better and far harder in his own zone. I was actually a little sad they moved him...

Skinner, being the same age, with the similar career path could very well fall into the same issue. I am just fine not having him...

Panarin is in a whole other level. He is a dominant, point per game player, who led his team in scoring by over 20 points while also being great in his own zone, and a +23 (also best on the team). He left Chicago and they dropped like a stone. He was the 2nd leading scorer after Kane for them both prior years and #1 in +/- among all forwards his last year in chicago. He's missed all of 3 total games in the NHL career, and at 26, he is in his prime. He is a game changer, led the jackets in playoff scoring as well (3 more than the next highest forward).

Panarin is nothing short of a franchise player, and the only reason he isnt absolutely beloved with every team drooling is because he is Russian. He is arguably better than Tavares, and a top 10 talent leaguewide (maybe even top 5 given his age). he has the 7th most points in the entire NHL since he came over, 14th best +/- despite playing on so-so teams. Simply put, Panarin would immediately revolutionize the forward crew, and strike fear in opponents with his speed, while not hurting the team defense.

If he hits the market, you gotta strike hard and fast.

 

[Maladroit]

I dunno where you are getting your numbers. Link?

NHL Player Stats - Corsica Hockey

 

[Maladroit]

Apart from outright goons and Matt Martin types Boedker is probably the worst defensive forward in the NHL. And he doesn't even score at even strength - the only reason he ever put up respectable point totals in Phoenix is because he was leading the league in power play ice time among forwards. That sack of crap was getting more power play time than Alex Ovechkin and barely cresting 50 points while bleeding shots and goals against. The biggest win of this offseason is that I never have to watch him in a Sharks sweater again.

 

[sampler]

You claim Skinner is not a playoff archetype player and yet you want Panarin? Same style of player. Panarin is obviously much, much better but it’s insane to compare a guy who is one season removed from 37 goals to Mikkel fricking Boedker.

Apart from outright goons and Matt Martin types Boedker is probably the worst defensive forward in the NHL. And he doesn't even score at even strength - the only reason he ever put up respectable point totals in Phoenix is because he was leading the league in power play ice time among forwards. That sack of crap was getting more power play time than Alex Ovechkin and barely cresting 50 points while bleeding shots and goals against. The biggest win of this offseason is that I never have to watch him in a Sharks sweater again.

He WAS one of the worst defensive forwards in the NHL. You are dead right. That's why he lost favor so fast. Deboer and Wilson are D-first coaches, so Boedker quickly dropped to a healthy scratch.

However, from Jan 1 through the playoffs, he finally figured it out. Took a year and a half, but he changed his game a ton. He had 29 pts in the last 45 games = 53 pts/82 games and +3. He was driving defensemen wide, getting into scoring areas, and making things happen, while being far more secured defensively. In the 1st half, he was getting 12:45 TOI/gm, and in the depth of it toward december and early January he was getting 8-11 minutes regularly, but by the end of the year, he was regularly in the 13-16 minute level because of his complete game.

He sucked in Arizona. He sucked the first year and half in SJ. He was awesome in the second half and playoffs. So, in many ways, you are very right and your evidence is spot on. However, it seems clear to me that he was dealt as a message for the all-in campaign for Tavares. Didnt happen, but dougie had to clear the space to show he was serious.

For 18 months, I was just itching to unloard that contract, but now I am less confident. Still, they dont have to have him, and they can acquire a similar talent during the year if they want for a reasonable cost.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Boedker probably still had to go because there were 10 forwards on the roster that really did not belong in the AHL or on a 4th line and 5 of them were and are naturally playmaker/F2 types. Boedker was the worst or 2nd/3rd worst of the bunch behind Tierney/LaBanc but LaBanc is younger with more potential and Tierney can reliably play center and Boedker can’t, so Boedker was certainly the odd man out of the forward group that is probably still too deep and that could probably still ditch another player as it is.

When you factor in the fact that Boedker was traded for what was almost certainly the best value, relative to what he was actually worth, and what he would have provided us, that any one of our 10 forwards could have been traded for, it really was a no brainer to move him.

With that said, he was a legitimately solid player us for the second half of the 2017-2018 season and I might even go so far as to argue that we would have missed the playoffs if we had a replacement level player in the lineup instead of him. I will definitely miss him.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

He's 61th

thats all I need to know....

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

All this back and forth about contracts "maybe" becoming a burden is ridiculous. As long as DW is GM there is literally no contract too shitty for him to move. The Heatley trade should have proved that once and for all.

 

[Hinterland]

thats all I need to know....

You might want to take that back. Boedker's 61th rank means he outperformed players like E.Karlsson, Burns, Subban, Hedman, Keith, Marleau, Schwartz, Sharp, Simmonds, Lucic, Kesler, Neal, Jagr, Saad, Arvidsson, Koivu, Pacioretty, Nash, Turris, Granlund or Stepan to only name a few.

 

[Hinterland]

Apart from outright goons and Matt Martin types Boedker is probably the worst defensive forward in the NHL. And he doesn't even score at even strength - the only reason he ever put up respectable point totals in Phoenix is because he was leading the league in power play ice time among forwards. That sack of crap was getting more power play time than Alex Ovechkin and barely cresting 50 points while bleeding shots and goals against. The biggest win of this offseason is that I never have to watch him in a Sharks sweater again.

May very well be the worst post I've seen on hfboards...yes...including all the whining leafs...
I don't even know where to begin.

That "sack of crap" comfortably outscored both Skinner and Kane 5vs5 last season...despite way more defensive zone starts and despite only scoring 8 points in 2017 while DeBoer tried to force him into his possession system. What DeBoer should have done instead is to play him on the shutdown unit. In fact, Boedker played some very strongly on that unit during last years playoffs...and got scratched/demoted for no reason. Talk about square peg in a round hole. It was never gonna work. Boedker is a strong player but he's not very versatile. He's a speedster and very strong defensively so defensive zone starts with fast/creative linemates is the way to use him. Pretty much everything else won't work. He does have a good shot but he still isn't terribly useful on the PP. So to summarize Boedker was quite unlucky with Coaches so far. He could have done a lot more playing for better coaches. Tippett and DeBoer are just outright idiots in many ways. They have their strong points but their biggest problem is that they're ignorant. They're immune to criticism and it takes a lot for them to change their opinion once they made up their mind regarding a player or whatever.

 

[WTFetus]

May very well be the worst post I've seen on hfboards...yes...including all the whining leafs...
I don't even know where to begin.

That "sack of crap" comfortably outscored both Skinner and Kane 5vs5 last season...despite way more defensive zone starts and despite only scoring 8 points in 2017 while DeBoer tried to force him into his possession system. What DeBoer should have done instead is to play him on the shutdown unit. In fact, Boedker played some very strongly on that unit during last years playoffs...and got scratched/demoted for no reason. Talk about square peg in a round hole. It was never gonna work. Boedker is a strong player but he's not very versatile. He's a speedster and very strong defensively so defensive zone starts with fast/creative linemates is the way to use him. Pretty much everything else won't work. He does have a good shot but he still isn't terribly useful on the PP. So to summarize Boedker was quite unlucky with Coaches so far. He could have done a lot more playing for better coaches. Tippett and DeBoer are just outright idiots in many ways. They have their strong points but their biggest problem is that they're ignorant. They're immune to criticism and it takes a lot for them to change their opinion once they made up their mind regarding a player or whatever.

Uh, you'd get a lot more credibility (nah, who we kidding) if you actually backed up your stats.
Boedker: 26 5on5 points
Skinner: 34 5on5 points
Kane: 35 5on5 points.

Comfortably outscored? We playing golf or something?

 

[Hinterland]

Uh, you'd get a lot more credibility (nah, who we kidding) if you actually backed up your stats.
Boedker: 26 5on5 points
Skinner: 34 5on5 points
Kane: 35 5on5 points.

Comfortably outscored? We playing golf or something?

Please don't talk with me about credibility when your best argument is just points. P/60 is way more telling since you're still not allowed to score from the bench

 

[WTFetus]

Please don't talk with me about credibility when your best argument is just points. P/60 is way more telling since you're still not allowed to score from the bench

Solid back-tracking considering you said "outscored". Outscored means, you know, actually scoring.

Also, way to back-track yourself into a wall.

Skinner: 1.79 5on5 P/60
Boedker: 1.79 5on5 P/60
Kane: 1.77 5on5 P/60.

Comfortably outscored? Again, nope.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

You might want to take that back. Boedker's 61th rank means he outperformed players like E.Karlsson, Burns, Subban, Hedman, Keith, Marleau, Schwartz, Sharp, Simmonds, Lucic, Kesler, Neal, Jagr, Saad, Arvidsson, Koivu, Pacioretty, Nash, Turris, Granlund or Stepan to only name a few.

Dude... do you seriously not understand? No such thing as "61th"... Basically you love him so much he has his own made up ranking.

 

[Hinterland]

Solid back-tracking considering you said "outscored". Outscored means, you know, actually scoring.

Also, way to back-track yourself into a wall.

Skinner: 1.79 5on5 P/60
Boedker: 1.79 5on5 P/60
Kane: 1.77 5on5 P/60.

Comfortably outscored? Again, nope.

Not sure where you got those numbers from

 

[Hinterland]

Dude... do you seriously not understand? No such thing as "61th"... Basically you love him so much he has his own made up ranking.

I only told you what I saw on nhl.com...and 61th in playoff P/60 over 8 seasons is pretty good...whether you like it or not...

 

[WTFetus]

Not sure where you got those numbers from

How about you tell me where you got your numbers from? You know, considering it was your own argument.

Unlike you, I actually provided numbers.

 

[Hinterland]

How about you tell me where you got your numbers from? You know, considering it was your own argument.

Unlike you, I actually provided numbers.

I actually provided lots of numbers already in this thread...

 

[WTFetus]

I actually provided lots of numbers already in this thread...

Are you purposefully being obtuse? Provide numbers to your incredibly wrong, back-tracked, 5on5 P/60 argument.

 

[Maladroit]

Incredible how four half-decent months somehow make up for Boedker being one of the most useless players in the NHL for nearly a decade. The ridiculous "playoff scoring" argument is also hilarious considering he's only played 34 career playoff games.

Just for the record this guy averaged 1.45 points per 60 minutes at 5 on 5 from 2008 through 2017, which is at the very low end of what third liners typically produce. His closest comparables are Ryan Garbutt, Rene Bourque and Carl Soderberg. And he's horrendous defensively on top of that. He sucks.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

All this back and forth about contracts "maybe" becoming a burden is ridiculous. As long as DW is GM there is literally no contract too ****ty for him to move. The Heatley trade should have proved that once and for all.

We traded Heatley for a contract we ended up buying out. We’ve also bought out Adam Burish and Paul Martin in the past 5 years.

 

[stator]

Boedker had several factors going against him that lead to his trade. First, his actual performance was finally beginning to catch-up to his perceived performance during contract negotiating time.

He had two seasons left on the current contract, and I don't believe there would be a relative equilibrium between actually performance and perceived in the next negotiations. DW probably didn't want that headache.

Second reason is John Tavares. DW need to clear some deck chairs off the SS Cap-space for Tavares ship before it sunk.

 

[stator]

Hey, Boedker definitely improved in the later part of this past season.

 

[Lebanezer]

We traded Heatley for a contract we ended up buying out. We’ve also bought out Adam Burish and Paul Martin in the past 5 years.

Havlat, Burish and Martin were basically corpses when they were bought out.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Havlat, Burish and Martin were basically corpses when they were bought out.

They were, but it doesn’t change that the facts firmly stand in the way of the idea that DW can trade any contract. Especially when you use Heatley as evidence of that when we literally traded Heatley, a 39 goal scorer we paid a solid collection of assets for, for a guy we ended up buying out 3 years later.

I don't see why you guys care if they're bad contracts. If they become crippling contracts, they just become burdens that lead to the tank you want anyways.

Because they won’t. Guys like Couture, Kane, Burns, Vlasic, and Jones will probably keep us a decent enough team to be like 5th in our division instead of 7th or 8th once they decline a bit and the Joes (who have been carrying this team for years) are gone.

We are currently in the 2013-2018 Minnesota Wild section of purgatory. Those contracts will probably send us into the 2010-2014 Calgary Flames section of purgatory.

 

[Maladroit]

Just for the record when we traded Heatley he was coming off a more productive season than Kane has ever accomplished in his career. This idea that some team is gonna trade for Kane in 2021 when he's coming off a 43 point in 72 games season or whatever and has 4 years remaining at a $7 million AAV is ridiculous.