Speculation: Summer 2018 Roster Discussion Part IV

[Pinkfloyd]

I dunno if 'horrible' is really an appropriate word here. Trading Ehrhoff for literally nothing was horrible. Trading Bonino for Huskins and Moen was pretty horrible. Trading a struggling prospect who will likely never amount to anything for a struggling utility player who didn't work out is maybe not what I would call a great trade, but it isn't exactly significant either.

My point being, who cares?

Well, to be fair, Ehrhoff wasn't traded for literally nothing. Chris Tierney is what we got out of that deal. Trading a struggling prospect for a struggling utility player is not accurately reflecting what it was at the time. Goldobin at the time was 21 and scoring at .89 per game pace in the AHL who was not given a real opportunity to crack a good NHL roster. That's a good prospect and knowing what we know about his game was someone that was going to need an extended opportunity to play the game here to get better but it wasn't something that the Sharks could afford as a competitive team. Hansen also was not some struggling utility player. Hansen was a struggling top-six player coming back from an injury where he was never able to find his game again. The Sharks sold low on a prospect they should have valued in the trade market higher than a guy everyone knows is a 3rd line caliber player playing with 1st line caliber linemates while coming back from injury and not being productive even before he got dealt to the Sharks. It's not the worst trade that DW has done, I agree. It's still a bad trade because Goldobin has a future and Hansen doesn't and it was known then to those paying attention.

 

[Maladroit]

I honestly think that if the Sharks hadn't signed Boedker in 2016 and simply given that role and those minutes to Goldobin he'd be an established 40-45 point scorer by now. They just never gave him a chance and then dealt him for pennies on the dollar.

 

[Alwalys]

Regarding Kane, he’s not going to be well into the 30s. He’s not a good power play goal scorer at all and even the McDavids and Matthews of the NHL don’t score much more than 30 goals at ES. I’m more than happy with Kane if he can score 25 goals at ES and chip in 5 more on the PP/PK, though.

I’m excited to see them play together but honestly I think that Kane-Thornton-Pavelski will be inferior to 2016’s Hertl-Thornton-Pavelski and even this year’s Meier-Thornton-Pavelski.

Except kane has not ever been a PP guy, he scores everything (mostly, ya pedantic f***s) at ES already. So unless we think a decent Thornton can't benefit him, which is basically impossible, lack of PP shouldn't affect him getting into the 30s.

Kane's even strength scoring is why we got him and his most exciting aspect. And what makes him a better natural scorer than many who have played alongside Jumbo.

It's not like he doesn't generate enough shots to do it either, ala William Karlsson -- he was the fourth highest shooter in the league last year.

 

[Jaleel619]

Goldobin and Hansen scored the same amount of points last year!

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Except kane has not ever been a PP guy, he scores everything (mostly, ya pedantic ****s) at ES already. So unless we think a decent Thornton can't benefit him, which is basically impossible, lack of PP shouldn't affect him getting into the 30s.

Kane's even strength scoring is why we got him and his most exciting aspect. And what makes him a better natural scorer than many who have played alongside Jumbo.

It's not like he doesn't generate enough shots to do it either, ala William Karlsson -- he was the fourth highest shooter in the league last year.

It is why we got him and his most exciting aspect but I think it's unrealistic to expect Kane to get 30+ even strength goals here with Thornton. If he does, it'd be the first lefty-shooter that I'm aware of to hit that mark playing with Thornton. Thornton's game benefits from right-handed shooters. And guys who were better goal scorers than Kane didn't pull that off so I'm not expecting Kane to do so. I'll be happy if he gets to 25-30 goals on the year.

 

[hockeyball]

I honestly think that if the Sharks hadn't signed Boedker in 2016 and simply given that role and those minutes to Goldobin he'd be an established 40-45 point scorer by now. They just never gave him a chance and then dealt him for pennies on the dollar.

Yah, I don't see it. He looked like yet another skilled kid whose skills just did not translate to the NHL well. Played well in the AHL, came up to the NHL and you barely noticed him. Something we've seen many times before. Unlike a guy like Nieto, who could at least find a foothold based on his two-way play, Goldobin was an almost purely offensive player who was not producing. Given he wasn't afforded a ton of opportunity, but he didn't take advantage of the opportunities he was given.

I liked the kid, but before he was traded I had mostly written him off already. Maybe a long term project to mold him into a second line winger, at best. It's not looking like even that will pan out for him. Hansen didn't work out either, but the rationale was there, and had Hansen played for us like he played for Vancouver, we would have been thrilled.

 

[Maladroit]

Yah, I don't see it. He looked like yet another skilled kid whose skills just did not translate to the NHL well. Played well in the AHL, came up to the NHL and you barely noticed him. Something we've seen many times before. Unlike a guy like Nieto, who could at least find a foothold based on his two-way play, Goldobin was an almost purely offensive player who was not producing. Given he wasn't afforded a ton of opportunity, but he didn't take advantage of the opportunities he was given.

I liked the kid, but before he was traded I had mostly written him off already. Maybe a long term project to mold him into a second line winger, at best. It's not looking like even that will pan out for him. Hansen didn't work out either, but the rationale was there, and had Hansen played for us like he played for Vancouver, we would have been thrilled.

Really disappointing that Goldobin wasn't noticeable in his whopping 19:39 of total NHL ice time with the Sharks (also he somehow managed four shots on goal in those two games so I doubt he was actually not noticeable).

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Yah, I don't see it. He looked like yet another skilled kid whose skills just did not translate to the NHL well. Played well in the AHL, came up to the NHL and you barely noticed him. Something we've seen many times before. Unlike a guy like Nieto, who could at least find a foothold based on his two-way play, Goldobin was an almost purely offensive player who was not producing. Given he wasn't afforded a ton of opportunity, but he didn't take advantage of the opportunities he was given.

I liked the kid, but before he was traded I had mostly written him off already. Maybe a long term project to mold him into a second line winger, at best. It's not looking like even that will pan out for him. Hansen didn't work out either, but the rationale was there, and had Hansen played for us like he played for Vancouver, we would have been thrilled.

The opportunity given to him on the San Jose Sharks was 11 games at about 11 minutes a game. A guy failing to take advantage of that kind of opportunity shouldn't be given up on and given away. And no, the rationale wasn't there. They undersold a good prospect for a player that they shouldn't have traded for at all given his status at the time. They gambled for no good reason and it predictably failed.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Really disappointing that Goldobin wasn't noticeable in his whopping 19:39 of total NHL ice time with the Sharks (also he somehow managed four shots on goal in those two games so I doubt he was actually not noticeable).

It's more like 120:19. He played 11 games in San Jose over two seasons.

 

[Maladroit]

It's more like 120:19. He played 11 games in San Jose over two seasons.

My bad, I forgot he had a stint with the big club in 15-16. But the point remains that he wasn't given anywhere near a real shot the next season despite tearing up the AHL.

My fear is that this same sort of process is going to play out with Ryan Merkley in a couple years. And he's a significantly better prospect than Goldobin so if they end up dumping him for scraps that move is far more likely to bite them in the ass.

 

[STL Shark]

Yah, I don't see it. He looked like yet another skilled kid whose skills just did not translate to the NHL well. Played well in the AHL, came up to the NHL and you barely noticed him. Something we've seen many times before. Unlike a guy like Nieto, who could at least find a foothold based on his two-way play, Goldobin was an almost purely offensive player who was not producing. Given he wasn't afforded a ton of opportunity, but he didn't take advantage of the opportunities he was given.

I liked the kid, but before he was traded I had mostly written him off already. Maybe a long term project to mold him into a second line winger, at best. It's not looking like even that will pan out for him. Hansen didn't work out either, but the rationale was there, and had Hansen played for us like he played for Vancouver, we would have been thrilled.

I still hate PDB for giving up on Nieto. Always one of my favorite guys on the roster. Even worse was giving him up on waivers only to have the first team in the waiver order take him. Tells me there was obviously someone willing to trade a mid-round pick for him. Hell even Mike Brown cost SJ a 4th rounder.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

My bad, I forgot he had a stint with the big club in 15-16. But the point remains that he wasn't given anywhere near a real shot the next season despite tearing up the AHL.

My fear is that this same sort of process is going to play out with Ryan Merkley in a couple years. And he's a significantly better prospect than Goldobin so if they end up dumping him for scraps that move is far more likely to bite them in the ass.

I would cry if we ended up doing Merkley dirty the way we did Goldobin. I have such high hopes for him, but I also feel like the way the organization talks about him is a bit different and I agree that he is a much better prospect.

Also, it kind of looks to me like they’re planning on leaving a spot open at RHD for Merkley in 2 years when Braun and DeMelo come off the books.

 

[Lebanezer]

I would cry if we ended up doing Merkley dirty the way we did Goldobin. I have such high hopes for him, but I also feel like the way the organization talks about him is a bit different and I agree that he is a much better prospect.

Also, it kind of looks to me like they’re planning on leaving a spot open at RHD for Merkley in 2 years when Braun and DeMelo come off the books.

With his talents one of those spots is his to take no matter who inhabits it. I hope it’s next year.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I would cry if we ended up doing Merkley dirty the way we did Goldobin. I have such high hopes for him, but I also feel like the way the organization talks about him is a bit different and I agree that he is a much better prospect.

Also, it kind of looks to me like they’re planning on leaving a spot open at RHD for Merkley in 2 years when Braun and DeMelo come off the books.

Oh, it's vastly different. The organization openly criticized Goldobin on more than one occasion. That was treatment I hadn't seen them give anyone even legitimately failing prospects. It was weird how they talked about him in comparison to others.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I still hate PDB for giving up on Nieto. Always one of my favorite guys on the roster. Even worse was giving him up on waivers only to have the first team in the waiver order take him. Tells me there was obviously someone willing to trade a mid-round pick for him. Hell even Mike Brown cost SJ a 4th rounder.

Seems like other teams know we are loaded with depth forwards and don't want to offer us crap for them? I really don't know what else it could be. First Nieto and then Carpenter.

 

[Sysreq]

I dunno where all these dreams of Goldobin come from. It’s not like we sent him to a Russian Gulag. He plays for the Canucks. And has failed to excel there, too. 14 points in 38 games. Minus 14 rating. Spent time with the Sedins and Horvat. Hasn’t been hugely impressive.

 

[Jargon]

“The Fourth Period: San Jose Sharks GM Doug Wilson has been exploring the trade scene for the last few weeks, having been linked to showing interest in Columbus Blue Jackets left wing Artemi Panarin, Montreal Canadiens captain Max Pacioretty and Carolina Hurricanes left wing Jeff Skinner, among others. A source close to the team told TFP prior to the NHL Draft that San Jose’s mandate was to add a top-six forward this off-season. The Sharks currently have just over $14.4 million in salary cap space.”

So, I think Doug is definitely very casually kicking tired on Karlsson and I have a feeling we’re gpong to get Patches or Skinner (i hope Skinner) before the season starts.

I do wonder if he’s gonna surprise us and pry Duchene away... there’s no way he’s NOT on his radar.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

“The Fourth Period: San Jose Sharks GM Doug Wilson has been exploring the trade scene for the last few weeks, having been linked to showing interest in Columbus Blue Jackets left wing Artemi Panarin, Montreal Canadiens captain Max Pacioretty and Carolina Hurricanes left wing Jeff Skinner, among others. A source close to the team told TFP prior to the NHL Draft that San Jose’s mandate was to add a top-six forward this off-season. The Sharks currently have just over $14.4 million in salary cap space.”

So, I think Doug is definitely very casually kicking tired on Karlsson and I have a feeling we’re gpong to get Patches or Skinner (i hope Skinner) before the season starts.

I do wonder if he’s gonna surprise us and pry Duchene away... there’s no way he’s NOT on his radar.

Our available cap space is now down to 7.3M with Tierney still unsigned. I do think for sure that DW is trying to land one of the players mentioned above. DW may have some kind of offer on the table for Karlsson and could be just willing to wait till that situation sorts itself out. If we don't get Karlsson, which is what I expect, I totally see DW being more aggressive with Patches or Skinner.

I am not sure if Panarin has even been given the chance to talk to other teams and if CBJ are truly even thinking of trading him before the TDL. They were a playoff team last year and may want to keep Panarin over the season, trade him close to the TDL to increase their chances of making the playoffs.

 

[matt trick]

It is why we got him and his most exciting aspect but I think it's unrealistic to expect Kane to get 30+ even strength goals here with Thornton. If he does, it'd be the first lefty-shooter that I'm aware of to hit that mark playing with Thornton. Thornton's game benefits from right-handed shooters. And guys who were better goal scorers than Kane didn't pull that off so I'm not expecting Kane to do so. I'll be happy if he gets to 25-30 goals on the year.

Didn't you put up 44 on Jumbo's LW in 09'-'10. I think Heatley played RW if I recall correctly, scoring 39.

 

[Mattb124]

I honestly think that if the Sharks hadn't signed Boedker in 2016 and simply given that role and those minutes to Goldobin he'd be an established 40-45 point scorer by now. They just never gave him a chance and then dealt him for pennies on the dollar.

My personal opinion is that Goldobin's lack of defensive accumen/commitment made him a bad fit for the Sharks, and I don't think he was every going to have a role here. Perhaps we sold low, but IMO that perspective is more validated through hindsight based on Hansen's lack is success.

He was healthy scratched for the majority of the season on a bad Vancouver team - during a year where they gave lots of their younger player substantial ice time, so that organization doesn't seem to be sold on him either.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Didn't you put up 44 on Jumbo's LW in 09'-'10. I think Heatley played RW if I recall correctly, scoring 39.

Marleau only scored 28 even strength goals in 09-10 and he was a significantly better player than Kane playing with a significantly better version of Thornton.

Oh, it's vastly different. The organization openly criticized Goldobin on more than one occasion. That was treatment I hadn't seen them give anyone even legitimately failing prospects. It was weird how they talked about him in comparison to others.

IIRC, Travis Green in Vancouver publicly criticized Goldobin’s defensive commitment, and Goldobin publicly disagreed with him.

 

[matt trick]

Marleau only scored 28 even strength goals in 09-10 and he was a significantly better player than Kane playing with a significantly better version of Thornton.



IIRC, Travis Green in Vancouver publicly criticized Goldobin’s defensive commitment, and Goldobin publicly disagreed with him.

Ah, I missed the even strength. That's a pretty ridiculous target though! On average, only 1-5 hit that level per year.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Ah, I missed the even strength. That's a pretty ridiculous target though! On average, only 1-5 hit that level per year.

Yeah, but Kane can’t be realistically expected to hit more than 5 goals per season at special teams. Here is his special teams goal scoring, per year:

1
4
6
2 (lockout)
3
5
3
3
7

He averages 3.7 special teams goals per year. Round up for the lockout year and say 4 just because. I don’t see him getting more than 5 this year.

This is why PF and I say it’s not realistic to expect more than 30 goals per season out of Kane, even with Thornton. He would need to hit at least 25 at even strength which would put him near the very best in the NHL. I’m not sure if he can do that.

 

[Used As A Shield]

Yeah, but Kane can’t be realistically expected to hit more than 5 goals per season at special teams. Here is his special teams goal scoring, per year:

1
4
6
2 (lockout)
3
5
3
3
7

He averages 3.7 special teams goals per year. Round up for the lockout year and say 4 just because. I don’t see him getting more than 5 this year.

It really is astonishing how bad he is on the PP

 

[hockeyball]

I still hate PDB for giving up on Nieto. Always one of my favorite guys on the roster. Even worse was giving him up on waivers only to have the first team in the waiver order take him. Tells me there was obviously someone willing to trade a mid-round pick for him. Hell even Mike Brown cost SJ a 4th rounder.

Curtis Brown? or Mike Grier?

I dunno where all these dreams of Goldobin come from. It’s not like we sent him to a Russian Gulag. He plays for the Canucks. And has failed to excel there, too. 14 points in 38 games. Minus 14 rating. Spent time with the Sedins and Horvat. Hasn’t been hugely impressive.

Yah exactly. While you can make an argument we didn't give him a chance, regardless he's had a chance since and done nothing to warrant his draft position. I really just don't see this trade a 'horrible'. At best it's 'bleh' in my book. We needed forward depth for a cup run, Hansen was available, a decent fit, and only cost a risky prospect who had not impressed thus far. The only reason we care is because Hansen sucked (and DeBoer hated him). Had he played like he did in Vancouver, we would have seen him as a good depth addition who can play on any line if needed, and he might have even re-signed here.