Speculation: Summer 2018 Roster Discussion Part IV

[Pinkfloyd]

He's a 13th forward (and not even a good one) making $2 million for two more seasons. It might not be an issue right at this very moment given our cap situation but it absolutely would have been a headache if we had landed Tavares, and will be a headache in the future if we're able to land a similar caliber star. You do not want to get into a situation where you're committed to Tierney, Karlsson and Dillon for $8.5 million/year for multiple seasons if you're going big game hunting. Those deals add up.

It would've been a minor inconvenience at best. Getting rid of Karlsson would be incredibly easy if at some point it is needed. Let's not kid ourselves here.

 

[Dicdonya]

It sorta was and sorta wasn’t. I was just poking fun at both of them because you can’t “prove” the website was accurate or not. It’s sort of a conversation-ender.

In terms of ice time with team members, it absolutely could be checked for accuracy. If I wanted to spend ages looking at each MTL games ice time break down on NHL.com I could do that. However it would take waaaaaay too much time, so I would not do it, and I'm grateful some sites have programs to sort that info out for us.

I am a little shocked you don't think these sites get info from verifiable sources, unless you meant something else by "cant prove" their accuracy.

I don’t necessarily disagree with your overall point, but Chicago is a terrible defense of your argument. I would easily, EASILY take ten years of cap purgatory if it meant I got two Cups.

We all knew the Seabrook contract was bad the moment it was signed.

Re read my post then. I never said they were a defense. All I said was that you can build a team like CHI did, then HOPE you win a cup or two before the inevitable cap crunch crushes your team. The poster I was talking to seemed to be down with that approach, without ever recognizing, or mentioning, the very real possibility that signing a bunch of "stars" does not make a cup certain, and could lead to no cups, and then years of suckage getting the cap back in order.

Oh yeah, and there is the fact that CHI has won zero cups since signing Toews/Kane to those deals. So actually they are a perfect example of paying out the wazzoo for stars does not mean cups follow. Which I know was not your argument, but I am just throwing that out there.

Last year, Tierney had the 7th most goals in the NHL for any player drafted in 2012 and people are writing him off as a 4th liner. Ridiculous.

Yep, its pretty crazy actually.

His goals have gone from 6, to 7, to 11 and then to 17.

No, zero chance he does what he's done every year so far, improve on his ice time, goal numbers and shooting percentage.

Nope according to a lot of posters, no chance he gets better, AND no chance he even repeats. However Meier and Labanc have a single good year, and they are sure fire 1st liners, and the 2nd best passer/playmaker on the team...…… While a guy whos played 3c on a playoff team for 4 years, and has been improving yearly, is not even a 3rd liner.

hahaha

We have cap space and no alternative at 3c. Even if he does get 3-3.5 mil, why trade him this year? Keep him for 1 year when we have the cap space and no backup plan for 3c, then trade him next year.

I'm pretty much in the middle on Tierney, I think hes a useful 3c, but also replaceable. But to bash on him cause he couldn't hang with Malkin or the HBK line seems unfair. Malkin is a top 10 player in the world and the HBK line was the best 3rd line in hockey that year.

Agree fully. I have NO PROBLEM trading or not resigning Tierney if we had a reason not to do so. Right now though, we have no 3c signed, a couple prospects we HOPE can be a 3c, and no cap crunch to stop us from signing our RFA.

Also yeah, LMAO at complaining that Tierney couldn't contain Malkin, or the Kessel line. NO ONE COULD

Once Hertl went down, that series was lost. Make the lineups however you want, we weren't going to win.

Yep, this is the single biggest reason we lost in the finals. Having Hertl might not have won us the cup, but it absolutely tanked our chances to win one. It was not our 3rd pair D, or Tierney, it was the whole team having to attempt to compensate for our best line in like a decade or more, not being around for the final.

Cmon, Melker is not a 13th forward. He gets top 9 mins occasionally on this team, which is my real problem with him, but I think hes a perfect 4th line player. Can give you 20 points on the 4th line, a good pker, and a coaches type player who is fearless blocking shots and taking hits.

I think a 4th line this year of Karlsson- Soumela-Sorenson could be one of the best 4th lines in the league. But if Karlsson's 2 mil is the difference in us acquiring a big piece, I have no doubt DW will find a way to move him.

This is the first year Melker played like absolute doo doo, before that, and maybe going forward, he has absolutely been a solid 4th line player for all the reasons you mentioned.

Paying him 2m for 3 years or whatever, might have been too much, but his contract is still easily moveable, and if we had to rid ourselves of him, or Tierney at 3x3, we could do it. Teams are always looking for center depth, yet in this thread, a young 3rd line center is darn near immovable and will ruin our cap somehow... I just don't get how people see it like that.

Right now, the only hope we have at improving this team is making a trade for someone like Patches, Panarin, Karlsson, or for those truly dreaming, Seguin. If we don't get any of them, we have 7mil of dead cap space for nothing, and we are out a young 3rd line center because we didn't want to give him a few years and a few mil, and anything we do sign, and trade, him for is not going to improve this team much if at all this year.

People have already complained about Burns, Vlassic, and Kane's contract. Yet ITT I am being told those are the type of players teams should retain at all costs, and let the cheaper/middling talent, like Donskoi, Tierney, Dillon, Braun etc go, because they are not 5mil+ players. Yeah makes sense....

Ill ask this, show me one team in the entire league since the salary cap started, that didn't have any players making the equivalent of 1-5mil contracts, and just loaded up huge star contracts with nothing but ELCs and dirt cheap depth, that won a cup. I wont hold me breath.

 

[Nolan11]

I am frustrated at DW for the apparent lack of a back-up plan to JT91. On July 1, when we were told that the #$@&*!!! Leafs had landed Tavares, I wanted to see DW respond. What I dreamed up that morning was making a play for DeHaan @ 5 x 5 (signed July 3 with Canes for just under 5), then trading Dillon + Karlsson (cap reasons) + Tierney + 2nd + 2020 1st to the Canes for Faulk + Skinner + 2020 2nd (conditional, sharks don't extend skinner). I'd like our chances to get Jumbo a cup a lot more if he had done something along those lines.... Instead the Canes filled their hole on the left side with DeHaan and we still have not made any improvements. If our roster looked like the following, I'd be a lot more confident:

Hertl - Couture - Skinner
Kane - Pavelski - Donskoi
Meier - Thornton - LaBanc
Sorenson - Soumela - Goodrow/Gambrell

Ryan - Burns
Vlasic - Faulk
DeHaan - Braun
Heed

Jones
Dell

EDIT: Came up with numbers before Thornton for five announced. Get rid of Demelo and sign Thornton for 4 or get canes to retain 1M and cap works on 21-man roster

 

[LA Shark]

I'm not truly convinced that the Shark's true goal is to win a cup. Obviously everyone would love that, but it seems the most important thing is to always be competitive. Tavares was an easy, low risk way to improve the team. DW knows this team most likely isnt going to win a cup, but as constructed it will continue to at least be competitive year in and year out. Trades for Panarin or Karlsson are the only true way I see for this team to have a REAL chance at winning the cup. However both are high risk moves that could jeopardize the future and I just dont think the Sharks are willing to take those types of chances.

 

[hohosaregood]

I'm not truly convinced that the Shark's true goal is to win a cup. Obviously everyone would love that, but it seems the most important thing is to always be competitive. Tavares was an easy, low risk way to improve the team. DW knows this team most likely isnt going to win a cup, but as constructed it will continue to at least be competitive year in and year out. Trades for Panarin or Karlsson are the only true way I see for this team to have a REAL chance at winning the cup. However both are high risk moves that could jeopardize the future and I just dont think the Sharks are willing to take those types of chances.

I just want something fun to watch so as long as the product on the ice is entertaining for at least ~7 months, I'll be pretty content. Would be awesome if they're entertaining for ~10 months though.

 

[hockeyball]

I'm not truly convinced that the Shark's true goal is to win a cup. Obviously everyone would love that, but it seems the most important thing is to always be competitive. Tavares was an easy, low risk way to improve the team. DW knows this team most likely isnt going to win a cup, but as constructed it will continue to at least be competitive year in and year out. Trades for Panarin or Karlsson are the only true way I see for this team to have a REAL chance at winning the cup. However both are high risk moves that could jeopardize the future and I just dont think the Sharks are willing to take those types of chances.

If that's the case, then I would stop watching. That's an abysmal way to run a sports team. If the players found out, you would be shooting yourself in the foot.

I think it's more likely the guys he wanted as backup plans are not yet available at the price he feels he can afford. Missing out on JT was devastating, nothing we do now will come close to filling that hole sadly. It was a one time opportunity and we missed it, no two ways about it. I'm souring on Karlsson, unless he comes real cheap at this point. I think we should wait and keep an eye out for an opportunity at a #1c, or potential future #1c prospect.

 

[Maladroit]

In terms of ice time with team members, it absolutely could be checked for accuracy. If I wanted to spend ages looking at each MTL games ice time break down on NHL.com I could do that. However it would take waaaaaay too much time, so I would not do it, and I'm grateful some sites have programs to sort that info out for us.

I am a little shocked you don't think these sites get info from verifiable sources, unless you meant something else by "cant prove" their accuracy.



Re read my post then. I never said they were a defense. All I said was that you can build a team like CHI did, then HOPE you win a cup or two before the inevitable cap crunch crushes your team. The poster I was talking to seemed to be down with that approach, without ever recognizing, or mentioning, the very real possibility that signing a bunch of "stars" does not make a cup certain, and could lead to no cups, and then years of suckage getting the cap back in order.

Oh yeah, and there is the fact that CHI has won zero cups since signing Toews/Kane to those deals. So actually they are a perfect example of paying out the wazzoo for stars does not mean cups follow. Which I know was not your argument, but I am just throwing that out there.



Yep, its pretty crazy actually.



Nope according to a lot of posters, no chance he gets better, AND no chance he even repeats. However Meier and Labanc have a single good year, and they are sure fire 1st liners, and the 2nd best passer/playmaker on the team...…… While a guy whos played 3c on a playoff team for 4 years, and has been improving yearly, is not even a 3rd liner.

hahaha



Agree fully. I have NO PROBLEM trading or not resigning Tierney if we had a reason not to do so. Right now though, we have no 3c signed, a couple prospects we HOPE can be a 3c, and no cap crunch to stop us from signing our RFA.

Also yeah, LMAO at complaining that Tierney couldn't contain Malkin, or the Kessel line. NO ONE COULD



Yep, this is the single biggest reason we lost in the finals. Having Hertl might not have won us the cup, but it absolutely tanked our chances to win one. It was not our 3rd pair D, or Tierney, it was the whole team having to attempt to compensate for our best line in like a decade or more, not being around for the final.



This is the first year Melker played like absolute doo doo, before that, and maybe going forward, he has absolutely been a solid 4th line player for all the reasons you mentioned.

Paying him 2m for 3 years or whatever, might have been too much, but his contract is still easily moveable, and if we had to rid ourselves of him, or Tierney at 3x3, we could do it. Teams are always looking for center depth, yet in this thread, a young 3rd line center is darn near immovable and will ruin our cap somehow... I just don't get how people see it like that.

Right now, the only hope we have at improving this team is making a trade for someone like Patches, Panarin, Karlsson, or for those truly dreaming, Seguin. If we don't get any of them, we have 7mil of dead cap space for nothing, and we are out a young 3rd line center because we didn't want to give him a few years and a few mil, and anything we do sign, and trade, him for is not going to improve this team much if at all this year.

People have already complained about Burns, Vlassic, and Kane's contract. Yet ITT I am being told those are the type of players teams should retain at all costs, and let the cheaper/middling talent, like Donskoi, Tierney, Dillon, Braun etc go, because they are not 5mil+ players. Yeah makes sense....

Ill ask this, show me one team in the entire league since the salary cap started, that didn't have any players making the equivalent of 1-5mil contracts, and just loaded up huge star contracts with nothing but ELCs and dirt cheap depth, that won a cup. I wont hold me breath.

I'm the furthest thing from a fan of Timo Meier but to compare Tierney to Meier is to just fundamentally misunderstand how aging curves and player development works. Meier is two and a half years younger than Tierney and just had a better season than Tierney's career year where you can argue Meier was actually unlucky and deserved a few more goals whereas pretty much everything went right for Tierney and he's a great bet to regress. Of course Meier, and to a lesser extent Labanc, are the guys you bet on going forward over Tierney because they're younger and vastly more skilled than Tierney. This isn't hard.

Also you do understand the Sharks are going to exist past the 2018-19 season right? And that it's generally a good idea for organizations to consider the cap implications of the contracts they sign not only for the first year but the years after that? It's no secret this team needs a #1 center to legitimately contend for a Cup. If Tyler Seguin makes it to free agency next year the Tavares contract will be the floor of his demands. You need to be able to throw $91 million over 7 years at Seguin and having Tierney, Karlsson and Dillon on the books for $8.5 million is a serious and unnecessary impediment to that.

The idea that opposing GMs would be lining up to take on two more years at $3.5mil per for Tierney if he regresses back into a 20-point 4th line center is laughable. So is the idea that anyone would take Karlsson at $2 million without sending comparably useless salary back the other way when they can sign a better player in free agency for less than half that cost. The rest of the league does not exist to do Doug Wilson favors.

Anyway I'm done arguing about Tierney. It's clear the front office isn't sold on him to the point of signing him for multiple years or else he'd have been signed already. They're absolutely making the right call here.

 

[rangerssharks414]

Regarding this off-season, I remember a little while back, Juxtaposer mentioned that she felt like she couldn’t be mad at DW, because he is doing what he can, but I don’t agree with that. Had he inherited the team on the day of the draft, I would entirely understand not being mad about what he did between July 1st and now. I actually agree that his moves in that time frame have been fine and agree with Maladroit that the worst possible off-season would have been one where we signed players JVR and Bozak after missing out on Tavares.

However, I am absolutely furious at him, because of the contracts he signed Kane, Vlasic, Jones, Couture, and Burns to. He backed himself into a wall where he is trying to still contend with a team that clearly is not what it once was. These moves were awful because they pretty much ensure that the team will not be able to undergo a “re-build/re-fresh/re-set” or whatever you want to call it any time soon. He basically built a (questionable) core around a star #1C that he planned on potentially acquiring, and signed that core long term to contracts where the only reasonable expectation is that they will be good now, and bad later; similar to the Paul Martin and Joel Ward contracts. Except these contracts carry much larger, more serious implications if these players only perform and age as reasonably expected. And, on top of that, these contracts are only worth it in the very short term if the team has a #1C that they can reasonably rely on to perform at that level; they absolutely don’t and so these contracts just look more and more awful.

In closing, I am absolutely furious with DW. He spent over $35M over the next 6 years on Kane, Vlasic, Couture, Jones, and Burns. 5 players who are all going to be in their 30s for the majority of those contracts, which have NTCs that make them seriously difficult to move. On top of that, none of those guys outside of Burns, who was 32 at the start of his 8 year contract, are anywhere near franchise level superstars, and Kane is the only one who hadn’t notably declined from his best season this year. (Couture is debatable as well).

Right now, with the Sharks being unable to acquire Tavares, right now would absolutely be the time for a “re-set/re-fresh”. We have some solid young pieces that we can use as building blocks to surround some elite franchise talent, but we are totally missing that elite franchise talent for now and the future. Our best course of action would have been to sign Vlasic, Burns, and Jones to much shorter term contracts with higher AAV, trade them (and Couture) with salary retained, not re-sign Kane, and re-fresh. This team absolutely isn’t a contender right now and outside of the unlikely scenario in which they acquire an Erik Karlsson, John Tavares, Tyler Seguin level player, they won’t be that contender in the future. They’ll be a fringe playoff team built around Kane, Couture, Vlasic, Burns, and Jones.

DW spent all of that money and all of those assets to build a team that would possibly be a contender if and only if Tavares signed with us in UFA. He should have only done that if he was certain that it was very likely Tavares would sign here. Given the fact that we offered Tavares $2M per year more than any other team, and we still didn’t even come down to his final 2 teams, DW quite obviously planned poorly for this situation.

We talked about DWJr. in a few other threads. I can entirely understand the complaints with nepotism and the bad culture it creates, but after watching that “shaping the Sharks” video, I believe he could be a strong head scout. He was the driving force behind the Merkley pick and so I am definitely a fan of his outlook and philosophy. But I can also understand why one would be unhappy about the nepotism.

Honestly, I think DW probably knew that he'd either make another cup final/win one in the future, or the contracts won't be his problem near the end of them. I'm kinda upset with some of the contracts as well, don't get me wrong. But I truly think that he thinks he could win with this roster, and if not, he wouldn't be around to see the end of the contracts.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Honestly, I think DW probably knew that he'd either make another cup final/win one in the future, or the contracts won't be his problem near the end of them. I'm kinda upset with some of the contracts as well, don't get me wrong. But I truly think that he thinks he could win with this roster, and if not, he wouldn't be around to see the end of the contracts.

Exactly all of this. Not a big fan of the last few contracts either but I think DW does really believe we can win it all. I would honestly be very surprised if we go into the season WITHOUT the addition of a good player like Skinner, Patches, Faulk, etc. Or even EK65 if things go our way. We missed out on Tavares but I still think we still have a good chance to go deep in the playoffs.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Honestly, I think DW probably knew that he'd either make another cup final/win one in the future, or the contracts won't be his problem near the end of them. I'm kinda upset with some of the contracts as well, don't get me wrong. But I truly think that he thinks he could win with this roster, and if not, he wouldn't be around to see the end of the contracts.

Yeah, I entirely agree. I do think he has over-estimated what Kane, Vlasic, Couture, Jones, and Burns’ performances will be throughout the tenure of their contracts, but I do think he believes we have a chance to win in the next 3-4 years.

With that said, if he does expect to be fired if the Sharks do not win in 3-4 years, wouldn’t that be more reason to be angry at him? If the belief is that he signed careless contracts with the expectation that he won’t have to clean up the mess they inevitably create, then isn’t that just another reason to be absolutely furious with him?

 

[LA Shark]

If that's the case, then I would stop watching. That's an abysmal way to run a sports team. If the players found out, you would be shooting yourself in the foot.

I think it's more likely the guys he wanted as backup plans are not yet available at the price he feels he can afford. Missing out on JT was devastating, nothing we do now will come close to filling that hole sadly. It was a one time opportunity and we missed it, no two ways about it. I'm souring on Karlsson, unless he comes real cheap at this point. I think we should wait and keep an eye out for an opportunity at a #1c, or potential future #1c prospect.

Look, I get it...we need a true 1c, I agree. But if our plan is to sit around and hope that if we wait a 1c will fall into our lap, I fear 5 years from now we'll be caught with our d**k in our hand with no 1c and no playoff runs. Weve basically insured we wont be drafting a 1c, hoping we pull another Thornton trade may be fools gold. And planning on signing one is an even longer shot.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Look, I get it...we need a true 1c, I agree. But if our plan is to sit around and hope that if we wait a 1c will fall into our lap, I fear 5 years from now we'll be caught with our d**k in our hand with no 1c and no playoff runs. Weve basically insured we wont be drafting a 1c, hoping we pull another Thornton trade may be fools gold. And planning on signing one is an even longer shot.

If that’s the case, then we’re idiots for not putting ourselves in the best position to draft one.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Tierney is a 3rd line center that will get you 12-20 goals a year without playing any PP minutes and being on the #1 or #2 PK.

He's perfect for the role. I mean...perfect.

 

[Dicdonya]

I'm the furthest thing from a fan of Timo Meier but to compare Tierney to Meier is to just fundamentally misunderstand how aging curves and player development works. Meier is two and a half years younger than Tierney and just had a better season than Tierney's career year where you can argue Meier was actually unlucky and deserved a few more goals whereas pretty much everything went right for Tierney and he's a great bet to regress. Of course Meier, and to a lesser extent Labanc, are the guys you bet on going forward over Tierney because they're younger and vastly more skilled than Tierney. This isn't hard.

I never said they have the same curve. I never said Meier couldn't have scored more points. I never said Tierney didn't potentially get lucky this year. I never said Tierney cant regress. I never said you bet on Tierney over Meier/Labanc going forward. Literally your entire post was arguing crap I never said. Typical.

Also you do understand the Sharks are going to exist past the 2018-19 season right? And that it's generally a good idea for organizations to consider the cap implications of the contracts they sign not only for the first year but the years after that? It's no secret this team needs a #1 center to legitimately contend for a Cup. If Tyler Seguin makes it to free agency next year the Tavares contract will be the floor of his demands. You need to be able to throw $91 million over 7 years at Seguin and having Tierney, Karlsson and Dillon on the books for $8.5 million is a serious and unnecessary impediment to that.

Oh yeah, gee how could I forget teams last for more then one year.....

Ok then, since you want to talk about the future cap. Next year we have 24mil in cap. You want to pay 13mil for Seguin(if he miraculously goes to FA, such a dreamer you are) so that leaves us with 11mil.

You also said you wont sign players to less than 5mil contracts. Great!

Go ahead, tell me how you are signing Thornton, Pavs, Donskoi, Ryan, Sorenson, Heed, Meier, Labanc. Add in two of Suomela, Praplan, and Gambrell to the mix, because YOU expect at least one of them to be a 3rd line center. One of the others is likely to be our 4c. Or maybe it will be Goodrow or Letunov on the 4th line. Please tell me. At 11 mil in cap space, and only 5 mil contracts, pick the two you want I guess. Everyone else goes bye bye according to your statement on the matter of contracts.

Any chance you are seeing how silly your "no contracts between 1-5mil" theory is looking when out of all those players, maybe 3 will actually be worth 5+mil. So I guess you will be in favor of trading or letting the rest go right?

The idea that opposing GMs would be lining up to take on two more years at $3.5mil per for Tierney if he regresses back into a 20-point 4th line center is laughable. So is the idea that anyone would take Karlsson at $2 million without sending comparably useless salary back the other way when they can sign a better player in free agency for less than half that cost. The rest of the league does not exist to do Doug Wilson favors.

Anyway I'm done arguing about Tierney. It's clear the front office isn't sold on him to the point of signing him for multiple years or else he'd have been signed already. They're absolutely making the right call here.

Goodness me, again you are arguing things I never said. I never said Tierney should get 3.5mil. I have repeatedly said 3x3, like a hundred times in this thread already, maybe you think you are replying to someone else?

Ahhh and there you go again with your "certainty" about stuff you have absolutely zero certainty about. Tierney could be going to arb for disagreements about how much to pay him, you know, the thing we have been heavily debating in this thread, you have no freaking idea whatsoever that Tierney is going to arb over contract length, yet you deign it so. Typical.

 

[Jaleel619]

Couture said in a interview the other day, the message is to win the Stanley cup. I believe that. I do think they can transition successfully. Though, I think a controlled demolition is a plan B or C somewhere in this. Say absolutely nothing goes for us, we dont get karlsson/seguin, no cup, 3-4 years go by Jumbo/pavs are done, we start struggling to make the playoffs. Maybe Doug didn't like that Marleau walked for nothing and why he started handing out long contracts to finish Joes career. Im sure Couture, Kane, Vlasic, and Burns would be okay with a trade for extra chances at a cup. I also wouldn't put it past Wilson to target a specific year for a player and do it a lot better than NYR did this year and guarantee a top 3 pick. Which would be perfect timing for Merkley, that sounds like a heck of a return/rebuild. And yall say Doug aint creative!

 

[LA Shark]

If that’s the case, then we’re idiots for not putting ourselves in the best position to draft one.

Well then were idiots. We dont have a 1st round pick next year, and were locked in to not tanking with all the extensions given out. Good luck drafting a franchise changing player in the 2nd half of the draft.

 

[Dicdonya]

Well then were idiots. We dont have a 1st round pick next year, and were locked in to not tanking with all the extensions given out. Good luck drafting a franchise changing player in the 2nd half of the draft.

We do have a 1st next year if we miss the playoffs. Just fyi

 

[Nolan11]

We do have a 1st next year if we miss the playoffs. Just fyi

I thought it was only if we miss the playoffs and win one of the first three pick lotteries....

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Look, I get it...we need a true 1c, I agree. But if our plan is to sit around and hope that if we wait a 1c will fall into our lap, I fear 5 years from now we'll be caught with our d**k in our hand with no 1c and no playoff runs. Weve basically insured we wont be drafting a 1c, hoping we pull another Thornton trade may be fools gold. And planning on signing one is an even longer shot.

Exactly. This market was going to be hard to tank in before the Golden State Warriors became a 'dynasty'. Now it is going to be borderline impossible unless the entire organization wants to do a full reset for the 3-4 years and be willing to lose both $$ and its fan base. Even without Thornton and Pavelski we have enough good players on the team to finish in the 10-20 range for picks.

Would I be ok with a tank? Absolutely. Infact, DW Jr becoming the head of our scouting gives me more confidence that we can make picks based on skill and risk losing a 'sure' NHL player over a better chance at getting a franchise player. But I just don't see it.

Its funny the way things have gone. 2 years back I thought, hey we probably wont re-sign either Jumbo or Patty and signal a rebuild. We let Patty go but got Jumbo back. Now after this coming season, it will be do we re-sign Jumbo and Pavs or move in a different direction? I think if we re-sign Pavs it may be a surefire sign that a rebuild is never going to be in the books for our organization.

 

[rangerssharks414]

I thought it was only if we miss the playoffs and win one of the first three pick lotteries....

I could be wrong, but I interpret "lottery pick" as any pick that has a chance to win/move up in the lottery. Which means a "lottery pick" is any first round pick from a non-playoff team. But I'm probably wrong.

 

[Nolan11]

Honestly, I think DW probably knew that he'd either make another cup final/win one in the future, or the contracts won't be his problem near the end of them. I'm kinda upset with some of the contracts as well, don't get me wrong. But I truly think that he thinks he could win with this roster, and if not, he wouldn't be around to see the end of the contracts.

I think the dramatic shift in contract length for star players was intentional to demonstrate to free agents that Sharks are willing to give $$ and term, and intend to contend for the next 5-7 years. It has also tied our hands on the tank front for the next 4-5 years. We will be too good to do horrible, but not good enough to win it all (unless something big changes). As it is, if we intend to be free agent players next off-season, we are likely done on roster changes until February.

 

[rangerssharks414]

Yeah, I entirely agree. I do think he has over-estimated what Kane, Vlasic, Couture, Jones, and Burns’ performances will be throughout the tenure of their contracts, but I do think he believes we have a chance to win in the next 3-4 years.

With that said, if he does expect to be fired if the Sharks do not win in 3-4 years, wouldn’t that be more reason to be angry at him? If the belief is that he signed careless contracts with the expectation that he won’t have to clean up the mess they inevitably create, then isn’t that just another reason to be absolutely furious with him?

Yeah, I'd be pretty upset. But that's how I feel about the contracts that he gave out.

I mean, I get that you want to keep them around rather than lose them for nothing, but I feel like he could have gotten them a little cheaper.

 

[Maladroit]

Tierney is a 3rd line center that will get you 12-20 goals a year without playing any PP minutes and being on the #1 or #2 PK.

He's perfect for the role. I mean...perfect.

I think you meant to say 12-20 points a year.

I never said they have the same curve. I never said Meier couldn't have scored more points. I never said Tierney didn't potentially get lucky this year. I never said Tierney cant regress. I never said you bet on Tierney over Meier/Labanc going forward. Literally your entire post was arguing crap I never said. Typical.



Oh yeah, gee how could I forget teams last for more then one year.....

Ok then, since you want to talk about the future cap. Next year we have 24mil in cap. You want to pay 13mil for Seguin(if he miraculously goes to FA, such a dreamer you are) so that leaves us with 11mil.

You also said you wont sign players to less than 5mil contracts. Great!

Go ahead, tell me how you are signing Thornton, Pavs, Donskoi, Ryan, Sorenson, Heed, Meier, Labanc. Add in two of Suomela, Praplan, and Gambrell to the mix, because YOU expect at least one of them to be a 3rd line center. One of the others is likely to be our 4c. Or maybe it will be Goodrow or Letunov on the 4th line. Please tell me. At 11 mil in cap space, and only 5 mil contracts, pick the two you want I guess. Everyone else goes bye bye according to your statement on the matter of contracts.

Any chance you are seeing how silly your "no contracts between 1-5mil" theory is looking when out of all those players, maybe 3 will actually be worth 5+mil. So I guess you will be in favor of trading or letting the rest go right?



Goodness me, again you are arguing things I never said. I never said Tierney should get 3.5mil. I have repeatedly said 3x3, like a hundred times in this thread already, maybe you think you are replying to someone else?

Ahhh and there you go again with your "certainty" about stuff you have absolutely zero certainty about. Tierney could be going to arb for disagreements about how much to pay him, you know, the thing we have been heavily debating in this thread, you have no freaking idea whatsoever that Tierney is going to arb over contract length, yet you deign it so. Typical.

You're making my argument for me with the 2019-20 cap breakdown. First of all it's around $27.5 million assuming the cap goes up a modest amount. That figure would be $36.5 million if it weren't for the Dillon, Braun and Karlsson contracts. $9 million tied up in two third pairing defensemen and a 13th forward. And you want to add another non-essential player to the mix for $3 million on top of that so it's $12 million for two third pairing defensemen and two fourth liners. That's where the money for Donskoi, Meier, Labanc and Ryan should be coming from (Pavelski should absolutely be shown the door, Thornton probably retires, Heed and Sorensen are replaceable and/or can be signed on the cheap) but instead it would be tied up in players who are eminently replaceable by guys making less than $1 million apiece.

The Sharks are at a point where they need as much long-term cap flexibility as possible to land a #1 center. It's the most important position in hockey and no one currently on the roster or in the system can fill it. That doesn't mean letting Timo Meier walk if he earns a long-term contract coming off his ELC. But it does mean that pissing away $3 million a year for three more years on a guy whose job can be done by players we already have who make less than $1 million with no long-term commitment is negligent.

Lol I guess it's just a coincidence that the three previous Sharks who have filed for arbitration under Doug Wilson - Marcel Goc, T.J. Galiardi and Jason Demers - were all gone within a year max. Wilson makes sure to get RFA deals done with players he views as important to the organization's future. The fact that it's come this far with Tierney strongly suggests he'll have the same fate as those other guys. Which is the right thing to do.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Yeah, I'd be pretty upset. But that's how I feel about the contracts that he gave out.

I mean, I get that you want to keep them around rather than lose them for nothing, but I feel like he could have gotten them a little cheaper.

Yeah, I definitely feel like he could have gotten them a little cheaper. I mean, Burns is the one that he waited to negotiate on, and that’s the only player who I feel like actually would have got more in the open market. Vlasic, Jones, and Couture were all signed 365 days before they had to be, and all 3 of them were signed to terrible contracts. Kane was signed very quickly and he was also paid less than I predicted Jim Benning would offer him. None of those guys gave any sort of home-town discount except for maybe Burns who was the best player in the NHL during the calendar year of 2016 when he signed his contract.

The average age of Burns, Kane, Couture, Vlasic, and Jones combined on their contracts will be 33. Putting $35.75M into 5 declining players who will be an average age of 33 is so inexplicably f***ing stupid I can’t even put words into it.

People are going to tell me I’m being melodramatic here, but those 5 contracts look like DW is trying to sabotage the Sharks. If any other GM signed those 5 contracts in the span of ~500 days like DW did, we would all be grilling them on the main boards and talking about how awful those contracts are. The reality is that we are biased and love those players so we don’t understand that they are all A) Currently overpaid and B) most likely going to decline at a more rapid rate than the salary cap increases. But the truth is that those 5 contracts will define the franchise over the next 6-8 years and they will most likely ruin us.

 

[Lebanezer]