Subban Contract Talk

[deandebean]

Maybe, jst maybe Subban really doesn't want to stay here long term like he's publicly saying. Maybe Bergevin knows this. Just maybe. Nobody thought of that?

 

[Kriss E]

Maybe, jst maybe Subban really doesn't want to stay here long term like he's publicly saying. Maybe Bergevin knows this. Just maybe. Nobody thought of that?

That's the point people have made that if what PK is interested in is hitting the open market, bridge deal or not, he will hit the open market.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

Yeah MB holds all the cards. Who the **** has said that?

You're doing a great Kriss E and LG impression, type type type, whine whine whine, same nonsense every post. No content. Hysteria. Misquoting. Strawman.

I don't have any time to explain things to people that can't learn. Montreal has CONTROL, look that word up FFS. That's different than "holds all the cards". Please I ask you, look the word up. And pass the definition on to your clueless friends.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/control

con·trol
[kuhn-trohl]
verb (used with object), con·trolled, con·trol·ling.
to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command.

noun
the act or power of controlling; regulation; domination or command.
the situation of being under the regulation, domination, or command of another.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/hold+all+the+cards

to have what is needed to control a situation

Now tell me you're a big boy and that I don't need to provide you with the definition of big words like "dominate" and "command"

EDIT: Jokes aside, I really hope you can put off whatever chip is on your shoulder, your naked aggression against people who merely disagree with you, on an internet message board, is pretty bizarre.

 

[Marchy79]

I am sure we are beating a dead horse,Subban was no question given a weak contract last year.Any Habs fan or at least most put Subban in the top 3/4 in the entire league yet the Habs management either are too blind to see it or they just don't like him.

Here is the deal i have with the way they treated him.They have been oh so quick to give terrible hockey players big time money yet played hard ball with Subban.Not often do you get a kid who loves to play for the Habs,a true Habs fan with ALL the skills,these guys come around once in a lifetime.Chelios was the last,that is how long the Habs wait for such a D man.

When you sign floaters like Vanek and washed up guys like Kaberle you had better treat your true hard working players like Subban with a LOT more respect.

Yes, his bridge contract was a deal for the Canadiens. But the context has to be mentioned... Bergevin was in his first summer as gm, and laying the groundwork for the future. From day 1 Bergevin has understood and respected PK's talents. Everyone knew PK had potential to be great, but he could have turned out to be a flash in the pan as well. When signing the contract, Bergevin even said that he understood what the long term would bring out, and challenged PK to earn this summer.
It was also said that if they locked up PK to a lt contract then, perhaps it would be PK who would be ripped off in the deal. Now he has cemented his experience, he's due his big contract.
Vanek was a pure rental we never signed, and Kaberle was a defence man who used to be worth the money, but fell off very quickly. 4.25 million was not a bad number, but his play subsequently got him bought out (due to that contract) and his declining role in this league, let alone this team. The strategy to bring him in was a shot in the dark from a failing gm crew. Bergevin's group seems much more functional.

Maybe, jst maybe Subban really doesn't want to stay here long term like he's publicly saying. Maybe Bergevin knows this. Just maybe. Nobody thought of that?

No... I don't think that's it at all... I think they just haven't come to terms yet... I mean this would mean a complete 180* turn around from everything Subban has shown us to date. It's July 1, not September 1. I'm not concerned, especially due to the complexity of the player involved. The deal will get done.

That's the point people have made that if what PK is interested in is hitting the open market, bridge deal or not, he will hit the open market.

He would if he wanted to... But I don't think it's in the cards for him to be wearing anything other than the tricolore for a long while. I don't think Subban is dishonest in his love for this city. This is/was his dream, and to date, I do believe it's going quite well for him

 

[Kriss E]

He would if he wanted to... But I don't think it's in the cards for him to be wearing anything other than the tricolore for a long while. I don't think Subban is dishonest in his love for this city. This is/was his dream, and to date, I do believe it's going quite well for him

I don't think so either, that's why I don't think there was much risk of signing him to a deal that got him to UFA years.

 

[76]

Subban just turned 25 years old, and considered one of the best defenseman in the NHL. He has to be paid as is, which I think it's around 6-7 M right now. At this stage of his carreer, his next contract will paid him big bucks every year of it. So cap hit will still about the same, short or long deal.
If I am Subban, I would look for about 4 years contract (7-7.5M). If I am Bergevin, for sure I would want to lock him for the next 8 (7-7.5M). It's going to be between that, I guess it's safe to say Subban will get 5 or maybe 6 years at 7 -7.5M cap hit. Something like 6.5M, 6.5M, 7M, 7.5M, 8M, 8,5M for a cap hit of 7.3M.

 

[Marchy79]

I don't think so either, that's why I don't think there was much risk of signing him to a deal that got him to UFA years.

Good point... I think a lot was going on organizationally for the Habs @ that time as well. Bergevin wasn't IMO in a good enough position to offer a massive contract then. There was a lot of question marks still on PK at that point.

Yes he was awesome, but he didn't arrive until the year After the contract. His value wasn't entirely defined as much more than he received at that point.
Now he has some elite status to show for himself. He's worth the long term value, and we STILL have 2 years before UFA.

IMHO, I will agree to disagree, and state that Bergevin did do the right thing by doing the bridge term.
All of the worry will settle after PK signs the huge anticipated deal. I'm sure the numbers are mind boggling already, and it's only a matter of figuring out where the deal should be, in comparison to where it is right now (ie dollar value, or term)

I think the nhlpa will actually appreciate the move in the long run, and see the Habs as a fair player in the fa market.

Most that have had the honour to wear this jersey, in the past while, I believe would say this organization does things very fairly.
We may not blow the socks off of people (contract wise), I do think we are reasonable in negotiating with those we have tried for.

PK's contract will be as complex, if not more so than Carey's deal. Due to that many more examples of salary and expectation levels around the NHL.

I.e.

On our own roster, we have
Markov @ 5.25
Emelin @ 4.1
Gilbert @ 2.8
Weaver @ 1.75
Tinordi & Beaulieau on their ELC's.

As it stands, we know PK's deal will be north of that. Heck, I'm pretty sure Bergevin doesn't pick up the phone, without a starting price above Markov's. But coming to a final dollar amount, is probably quite difficult for both sides to agree on. Especially when one is talking about a significant portion of their lives (an 8 year deal is equivalent to 1/3 of Subbans entire life to date).

It gets even more harder to finalize if there are any bonuses, which is very likely IMO in this case. Kind of like Lecavaliers 2 million dollar bonus I think he received today as an example.

In short, nothing I have heard from the Habs so far, has stated that signing PK has become anything less than top priority, in fact, I believe the deals being made are showing a fine example of a gm making the room for his star defence,man.

 

[deandebean]

No, I'm not saying that he doesn't want to stay because of the bridge contract. I'm saying that he just never wanted to stay here long term in the first place.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I clearly understand all the options...

You clearly don't understand the context of this conversation.

PK can stay or go, it's up to him. Just because he's RFA, it doesn't mean we can ram an 8 year deal down his throat now. Him staying with us long term is up to him. And us signing him to two years vs five last time doesn't change anything. Anything else is spin.

I don't have any time to explain things to people that can't learn. Montreal has CONTROL...

BS. Montreal can't force him to stay longer than he wants to. That's up to PK.

So again, Fozz's argument was wrong. You can try to spin it otherwise all you wish. You're still wrong.

9M sounds realistic.

I gave a lot of reasons why it could be that high in this thread or the previous one.

Tough to know because PK will be the benchmark in this new cap world. I figured 8 x 8 but we'll see. Either way its going to be more expensive than it had to be.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No, I'm not saying that he doesn't want to stay because of the bridge contract. I'm saying that he just never wanted to stay here long term in the first place.

To be honest with you man, I think a lot of people (including the analysts) were surprised that he signed for what he did last time. The fact that he caved in that standoff was shocking to many and surprising to most. If he was going to leave, I think he would've demanded a trade back then.

I expect him to sign long term with us.

 

[deandebean]

To be honest with you man, I think a lot of people (including the analysts) were surprised that he signed for what he did last time. The fact that he caved in that standoff was shocking to many and surprising to most. If he was going to leave, I think he would've demanded a trade back then.

I expect him to sign long term with us.

Yeah, you're right. It's just that nobody ever talked about that angle.

 

[GoodKiwi]

Good point... I think a lot was going on organizationally for the Habs @ that time as well. Bergevin wasn't IMO in a good enough position to offer a massive contract then. There was a lot of question marks still on PK at that point.

Yes he was awesome, but he didn't arrive until the year After the contract. His value wasn't entirely defined as much more than he received at that point.
Now he has some elite status to show for himself. He's worth the long term value, and we STILL have 2 years before UFA.

IMHO, I will agree to disagree, and state that Bergevin did do the right thing by doing the bridge term.
All of the worry will settle after PK signs the huge anticipated deal. I'm sure the numbers are mind boggling already, and it's only a matter of figuring out where the deal should be, in comparison to where it is right now (ie dollar value, or term)

I think the nhlpa will actually appreciate the move in the long run, and see the Habs as a fair player in the fa market.

Most that have had the honour to wear this jersey, in the past while, I believe would say this organization does things very fairly.
We may not blow the socks off of people (contract wise), I do think we are reasonable in negotiating with those we have tried for.

PK's contract will be as complex, if not more so than Carey's deal. Due to that many more examples of salary and expectation levels around the NHL.

I.e.

On our own roster, we have
Markov @ 5.25
Emelin @ 4.1
Gilbert @ 2.8
Weaver @ 1.75
Tinordi & Beaulieau on their ELC's.

As it stands, we know PK's deal will be north of that. Heck, I'm pretty sure Bergevin doesn't pick up the phone, without a starting price above Markov's. But coming to a final dollar amount, is probably quite difficult for both sides to agree on. Especially when one is talking about a significant portion of their lives (an 8 year deal is equivalent to 1/3 of Subbans entire life to date).

It gets even more harder to finalize if there are any bonuses, which is very likely IMO in this case. Kind of like Lecavaliers 2 million dollar bonus I think he received today as an example.

In short, nothing I have heard from the Habs so far, has stated that signing PK has become anything less than top priority, in fact, I believe the deals being made are showing a fine example of a gm making the room for his star defence,man.

There are no bonuses that could be given out to PK other than the signing ones which don't change anything for a wealthy organisation such as ours.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Yeah, you're right. It's just that nobody ever talked about that angle.

Because the narrative last time was "he hasn't done enough to earn a long term deal for doughty money," last time. He was pretty clearly seeking it. I don't see any reason for a change of heart.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Because the narrative last time was "he hasn't done enough to earn a long term deal for doughty money," last time. He was pretty clearly seeking it. I don't see any reason for a change of heart.

A lot of us thought this way initially. But it was widely reported by pretty much everyone later on to be 5 x 5.

If it was Doughty money, a bridge deal might've made sense for say 2 x 5. But if he's only asking for five and he wants term, then give it to him.

 

[Agnostic]

A lot of us thought this way initially. But it was widely reported by pretty much everyone later on to be 5 x 5.
If it was Doughty money, a bridge deal might've made sense for say 2 x 5. But if he's only asking for five and he wants term, then give it to him.

Mckenzie speculated a 2.5 - 3.0 M difference on a deal which was his guess without a source. Everything else is based on that speculation .

He also guessed that the situation would result in a trade. Time to conclude that Mckenzie had no real information, just as current negotiations are tightly lipped and he has no real information in 2014.

 

[highstick14*]

Maybe, jst maybe Subban really doesn't want to stay here long term like he's publicly saying. Maybe Bergevin knows this. Just maybe. Nobody thought of that?

IF that's true, then trade him. Why sign a guy to big money if he wants to be gone in a few years?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Mckenzie speculated a 2.5 - 3.0 M difference on a deal which was his guess without a source. Everything else is based on that speculation .

He also guessed that the situation would result in a trade. Time to conclude that Mckenzie had no real information, just as current negotiations are tightly lipped and he has no real information in 2014.

Mackenzie wasn't the only one reporting those numbers. 5 x 5 was widely reported.

 

[Agnostic]

Mackenzie wasn't the only one reporting those numbers. 5 x 5 was widely reported.

They were speculating on Mckenzie's guess. Show me a report that quotes one party or the other of a 5X5 deal being on the table.

Other then people speculating on Mckenzie's guess.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

They were speculating on Mckenzie's guess. Show me a report that quotes one party or the other of a 5X5 deal being on the table.

Other then people speculating on Mckenzie's guess.

A bunch of reporters aren't going to run on Bobby Mack's guess dude.

As for a report... who the hell is going to have a report with a quote on it? That's the thing about leaked information, the sources usually stay quiet.

Across the board it was reported to be 5 x 5 and I see no reason to doubt this.

 

[HabsHockey*]

There are no bonuses that could be given out to PK other than the signing ones which don't change anything for a wealthy organisation such as ours.

Doesn't a signing bonus count against the cap? if it does, it affects us.

 

[Agnostic]

A bunch of reporters aren't going to run on Bobby Mack's guess dude.

As for a report... who the hell is going to have a report with a quote on it? That's the thing about leaked information, the sources usually stay quiet.

Across the board it was reported to be 5 x 5 and I see no reason to doubt this.

Across the board has no source. Just like todays negotiation with Subban has no source.

you have no reason to doubt because you have invested 2 years in a lie you can't substantiate.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Across the board has no source. Just like todays negotiation with Subban has no source.

you have no reason to doubt because you have invested 2 years in a lie you can't substantiate.

Yeah, it's all a big conspiracy on the part of the analysts. And all of us in this thread (except you) are in on it.

Good work on cracking the case!

 

[Marchy79]

There are no bonuses that could be given out to PK other than the signing ones which don't change anything for a wealthy organisation such as ours.

Except a final dollar amount agreed upon by 3 parties: PK, Bergevin, and Molson.

Bergie and Geoff have to agree on all things presented to Subban, who then agrees to it... Maybe the hiccup is somewhere in the details, but everyone who wants the deal done, have to remember how complex it is when dealing with essentially, a superstar.

Carey, didn't sign his deal until July 2nd 2012. His deal just prior to that was for 2 years, and would be considered a bridge deal.

Whatever must be negotiated, will be... Sometimes it's quick, other times not so much. So long as he's signed up come training camp, all is good. There could be any reason why the deal is not done yet... But also, for those saying PK and 2 years on another offer, would it be worth the pay out? (All those picks, and the disdain of many other GM's). If someone, or some team makes that offer, it's so that they Believe they can get PK off of the Habs. Otherwise, it isn't worth the hot air to any of them.

PK will get his fair deal IMO, it's just. Matter of ps and qs.

Honestly, the situation could be as dumb as PK wanting to take a solid month off not thinking about hockey, and let Bergevin and co. Know as such.
Really, there hasn't been any talk of any major issues when discussingpks negotiations, other than Bergevin Has touched base with PK's party.

 

[Kriss E]

Mckenzie speculated a 2.5 - 3.0 M difference on a deal which was his guess without a source. Everything else is based on that speculation .

He also guessed that the situation would result in a trade. Time to conclude that Mckenzie had no real information, just as current negotiations are tightly lipped and he has no real information in 2014.

And PK gave an interview to Stubbs making it a point to tell people that he wasn't looking to break the bank just get his fair value. Do you honestly think that PK thought his fair value was Doughty money??
People also assumed that PK was asking for Doughty cash. There were no actual ''real information'' about this.

You didn't need Bobby Mac's opinion about this possibly ending in a trade because you had PK himself not deny the possibility of it during his exclusive with Stubbs in which he states that he absolutely wants to stay in Mtl but if it came down to it he knew he could envision himself playing for other teams. After saying that, in the same interview, he states that he needs to discuss his future with his family.
So ya, you didn't really need insider info here to figure out this wasn't very encouraging.

After the deal went down, and you saw the numbers, you actually should assume what Bobby Mac speculated was right. That 2.5-3M per year was off. Because there's no way a kid asking Doughty money which is 56M over 8years with a 7M cap hit would agree to take 50M less than he envisioned. Such a difference would surely result in a trade. You're talking about someone accepting to take a 90% decrease in contract expectation. That is insane. A 5x5 type of deal makes a lot more sense and falls in line with what most people would put PK's value at the time.
But say you do believe they were asking for Doughty cash. That's something they probably went into negotiations with. Start high, work your way down to a just middle. It makes no sense that they went in at a higher contract and then brought it down to Doughty level, and then held out for it.

 

[Kriss E]

Across the board has no source. Just like todays negotiation with Subban has no source.

you have no reason to doubt because you have invested 2 years in a lie you can't substantiate.

You're also in a lie then because you can't provide one quote saying PK wanted Doughty cash either.

If 5x5M is a lie, so is Doughty cash.

In that case, as much as I'm scared to ask you this, use your brain. What would you say PK's value was at the time?...
Right.