Stone vs. Chiasson

[CanadianGuest]

Wait is stone eleigible for the Calder?

Yes he is (got a too short message because I only wrote "yes" the first attempt )

 

[derriko]

Watch Stone. He can't catch the third Canadien in, and doesn't watch the fourth Canadien in. He's caught in the middle, watching the puck, and ends up taking a 2 minute penalty because of, IMO, a lack of position he could have had.

He was in the right spot, but like you said, watched the puck instead of having his head on a swivel.

The two Habs in front were in a direct line with the puck carrier which allowed them to be covered by one d-man, so we was right in staying high.

All in all its not a big mistake, but it could've been prevented. I would chalk that one up to a rookie mistake. Something pretty easily fixable.

If he gets more experience + his forechecking ability + his second best defensive stick on the team to Karlsson IMO and you have a positive defensive wing.

 

[Hammertyme]

All Greening..three on three down low. It was the 4th man high on the Flabs who set everything up and was the most dangerous. Spezza... he's covering the linesman.

 

[exv91]

Both are future at this point. They both need development. Though I've seen more of Stone this past season, and I like his hands, and his play making ability in particular, it unclear. You got to say the guy who plays better now (in training camp) gets the top spot, and then that's also up in the air if someone stops performing.

 

[sens83]

Watching Stone in Binghamton for a few years, i've always thought that he looks like a brick sh*thouse on skates.

Guy is terrible with a pair of blades on his feet. You watch him next to a player like Hoffman or Pageau and it's night and day. Stone has talent, he can play, but i've always thought his biggest issue is his skating. He levels out at a third line winger at best imo.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Watching Stone in Binghamton for a few years, i've always thought that he looks like a brick sh*thouse on skates.

Guy is terrible with a pair of blades on his feet. You watch him next to a player like Hoffman or Pageau and it's night and day. Stone has talent, he can play, but i've always thought his biggest issue is his skating. He levels out at a third line winger at best imo.

Skating has never held Stone back.

Hoffman on the other hand doesn't utilize his speed to full advantage.


Raw physical skills and ability mean nothing if you don't apply it. Hockey sense is more important.

 

[Xspyrit]

Thats not a playoff team anytime soon.

And how do you know that? I have listened to thousand hockey fans in the last 23 years telling me this and that will happen, but in reality, things rarely work out like fans/medias predictions...

Ex : Last spring on RDS (who are totally pro-Habs), all the dudes picked Boston to win the series but Habs still won. We have no idea what the future holds.

Sens have started a rebuild (retool/whatever) in 2011. Since, they made the playoffs 2 times in 3 years and missed by 5 points last year in a season where everything went wrong and were their biggest enemies.

So I'm not really sure why anyone can say "anytime soon", particularly with all the latent and potential in the organization... Is it because Spezza won't be back? Ok but what about healthier guys and additions like Legwand, Chiasson, Stone, Hoffman, possibly Lazar, etc.

Yes I suppose that I cant be absolutely certain (god knows we get all the good UFAs, and always win trades), but we're taking a step backwards if Stone and Chaisson dont pan out and we have to wait for the other guys to develop into NHLers.

That's your opinion. Mine is we do good on most of them (trades) and we are able to sign a good UFA once in a while (Gonchar, MacArthur, Legwand?) but obviously, Sens are in a disadvantage in that department...

If Stone and Chiasson don't pan out as good as we are expecting, it just means than we have 2 less "core/key" candidates. The chances of forming a good team diminish, nothing else. Several others guys are getting close or are just waiting for an opportunity (Hoffman, Prince, Schneider...). We have no idea what the future holds, maybe Stone and Chiasson get beat by other guys we didn't expect.

Assuming Stone and Chaisson fail (1-2 years of waste there), I dont see any of the guys your listing being capable of stepping up and being solid contributors in the next three years. Lazar will take time, and Im really not sold on Puemple yet myself.

We all have guys that we have faith in more than others. I have faith in Lazar, Stone and Puempel for example, but not so much in Pageau and Hoffman for example. That being said, we don't need a 100% success rate. NHL spots are limited.

Hence why I believe that we're going to toil in mediocrity until some of our young talent develops into legitimate second line NHLers.

We already know that if our younger talent don't reach most of their potential, we won't be able to reach the next step, but HF is all about repeating so no problem.

Here's a game from last year, go to the 21:19 mark, Spezza loses a faceoff, Ceci picks up a loose puck after the Canadiens didn't connect on a pass, he moves it up to Stone who flips it over to Spezza who sends it into the Canadiens zone on a Greening deflection, Greening chases. The puck moves around the boards to Stone who passes to Phillips who takes a shot at the point at 21:36, it's blocked and the play goes the other way.

Here is where the Sens need to back check. Ceci and Phillips start back, Stone is third man back, Greening and Spezza back check at a, um, calm pace. The play crosses neutral ice at 21:40.

Watch Stone. He can't catch the third Canadien in, and doesn't watch the fourth Canadien in. He's caught in the middle, watching the puck, and ends up taking a 2 minute penalty because of, IMO, a lack of position he could have had. This is Stone, he knows he has to back check, is willing to, but the finer nuances of who he was capable of defending wasn't there. Phillips and Ceci had the first three covered as best as two D can cover them, he wasn't helping against those three, so cover the fourth guy coming in, Greening and Spezza were in deep at the other end. Repetition and instruction at this level will correct this.

Well, I couldn't find the play you are talking about... Somehow, not the same at 21:19

Anyway, doesn't matter. One play doesn't make a player or Girardi and Doughty wouldn't be in this league. Thing is, on a regular basis, I found Mark Stone to be much reliable defensively than Spezza and Greening for example (who thank God in the defensive aspect of the game, are not or soon won't be on the team anymore). And stats back my eye test... Despite than it was a shorter sample size than others, Mark Stone had one of the lowest ES GA / 60 on the team last year.

 

[CanadianGuest]

He was in the right spot, but like you said, watched the puck instead of having his head on a swivel.

The two Habs in front were in a direct line with the puck carrier which allowed them to be covered by one d-man, so we was right in staying high.

All in all its not a big mistake, but it could've been prevented. I would chalk that one up to a rookie mistake. Something pretty easily fixable.

If he gets more experience + his forechecking ability + his second best defensive stick on the team to Karlsson IMO and you have a positive defensive wing.

Well, I couldn't find the play you are talking about... Somehow, not the same at 21:19

Anyway, doesn't matter. One play doesn't make a player or Girardi and Doughty wouldn't be in this league. Thing is, on a regular basis, I found Mark Stone to be much reliable defensively than Spezza and Greening for example (who thank God in the defensive aspect of the game, are not or soon won't be on the team anymore). And stats back my eye test... Despite than it was a shorter sample size than others, Mark Stone had one of the lowest ES GA / 60 on the team last year.

Yeah, that was the point, rookie mistake that can be corrected with experience and time.

It's his limitations in skating that will allow him to only be average defensively, because he can't cut and turn with the quicker guys. If the play is at his speed, he's going to be gold with his stick work and hockey IQ, but once it gets too quick, he'll be chasing and possibly out of position. Time will tell.

As for the time in the video, game time is 7:31 of the first period. Hope that helps Xspyrit, always appreciate your comments.

 

[exv91]

Well, I couldn't find the play you are talking about... Somehow, not the same at 21:19

Anyway, doesn't matter. One play doesn't make a player or Girardi and Doughty wouldn't be in this league. Thing is, on a regular basis, I found Mark Stone to be much reliable defensively than Spezza and Greening for example (who thank God in the defensive aspect of the game, are not or soon won't be on the team anymore). And stats back my eye test... Despite than it was a shorter sample size than others, Mark Stone had one of the lowest ES GA / 60 on the team last year.

Agreed, Stone has much more potential defensively compared to Spezza. Foot-speed aside, he positions himself well most of the time, and when he doesn’t it’s a learning curve I believe he is able and willing to overcome, unlike Spezza. That particular play referred to above, I blame Phillips for because he gets beat so easily because of his lack of foot-speed, and Spezza completely bails on the back check. Let's not forget Stone did not make his mark in hockey by being a defensive specialist, he's was a offensive threat in junior hockey, and when he played for team Canada. He's a natural offensive talent, and that's what we need him to be. I’ll take Stone any day over Greening, Condra, Hoffman, Pageau and DaCosta.

 

[Xspyrit]

Yeah, that was the point, rookie mistake that can be corrected with experience and time.

It's his limitations in skating that will allow him to only be average defensively, because he can't cut and turn with the quicker guys. If the play is at his speed, he's going to be gold with his stick work and hockey IQ, but once it gets too quick, he'll be chasing and possibly out of position. Time will tell.

As for the time in the video, game time is 7:31 of the first period. Hope that helps Xspyrit, always appreciate your comments.

Yup, Stone's skating will always be his weakness as he will never be an above average skater but he has the smarts and vision to be good both defensively and offensively despite his skating. He wouldn't be the first below average/average skater to succeed in today's NHL. His physical stature helps him too, if he was smaller, he probably wouldn't stick in the NHL

Also, it's amazing how badly we outplayed the Habs that game, could have easily scored 20 goals lol. We did score 4 goals and Price was by far the best player for the Habs. I tell you, we have nothing to envy the Habs and their prospect pool is madly overrated. If Lehner becomes as good as I think he can, we will own them (not like we don't already do).

And thanks for the kind words

Agreed, Stone has much more potential defensively compared to Spezza. Foot-speed aside, he positions himself well most of the time, and when he doesn’t it’s a learning curve I believe he is able and willing to overcome, unlike Spezza. That particular play referred to above, I blame Phillips for because he gets beat so easily because of his lack of foot-speed, and Spezza completely bails on the back check. Let's not forget Stone did not make his mark in hockey by being a defensive specialist, he's was a offensive threat in junior hockey, and when he played for team Canada. He's a natural offensive talent, and that's what we need him to be. I’ll take Stone any day over Greening, Condra, Hoffman, Pageau and DaCosta.

Ya Spezza doesn't have the greatest foot-speed but that's not what prevent him to be an elite player. I think it's his level of concentration, he seems to go too often on "cruise control" and that's when he gets burned. Anyway, 31 y/o, he could teorically turn it around and become a complete player but I don't see it, and his back problems will limit the time he has to do it. In hindsight, the fact that he wanted a change of scenery can easily become a blessing for the Sens. Sure, his creativity and skill level will be missed short term (particularly on the PP) but it also allows a lot of opportunity for others. He was getting "too old" for the Sens and I'd rather have complete 2-way veterans (Legwand, MacArthur) to show a good example for the younger guys.

Phillips remind me of Kovalev, in the sense that he lost that fraction of second to react which allowed him to be so effective for a long time. He still can skate at a good pace, but it's his reaction quickness that limit him. That being said, he should be ok in a reduced role on the 3rd pairing with a bit of PK duties. He should not see PP time, which would help him to preserve his image.

 

[Parliament]

In my opinion, I'd say they will both impact the team in different ways. I'd like to say Stone, but I feel short term it will be Chiasson just because he was the center piece of the spezza deal. I would imagine he will get the better opportunity early on. Both on regular ice time, and special teams (pp/pk).

I'm still impressed with Chiasson's 13 PPP last year, with an average 3:21 last year per game on the PP. I feel he will be given the ice time early on, and its up to him to keep it.

Another thing to consider is who is the better skater of the two? Can't confidently make an evaluation comparing the two, but it's something I'll personally be looking at in camp/pre-season/reg-season.

 

[exv91]

Ya Spezza doesn't have the greatest foot-speed but that's not what prevent him to be an elite player. I think it's his level of concentration, he seems to go too often on "cruise control" and that's when he gets burned. Anyway, 31 y/o, he could teorically turn it around and become a complete player but I don't see it, and his back problems will limit the time he has to do it. In hindsight, the fact that he wanted a change of scenery can easily become a blessing for the Sens. Sure, his creativity and skill level will be missed short term (particularly on the PP) but it also allows a lot of opportunity for others. He was getting "too old" for the Sens and I'd rather have complete 2-way veterans (Legwand, MacArthur) to show a good example for the younger guys.

Phillips remind me of Kovalev, in the sense that he lost that fraction of second to react which allowed him to be so effective for a long time. He still can skate at a good pace, but it's his reaction quickness that limit him. That being said, he should be ok in a reduced role on the 3rd pairing with a bit of PK duties. He should not see PP time, which would help him to preserve his image.

I wasn’t saying Spezza’s foot-speed is what held him back, there’s no doubt he is an elite player, his stats speak for themselves. But Spezza is a good example of an elite player who can put up pts/offense without the great foot-speed. The same is somewhat true with Stone with the exception of Spezza’s elite offensive capabilities which don’t measure up to Stone. I doubt Spezza will turn it around in Dallas, I gave up on him eons ago with the blind behind the back pass thing, and I think before too long you’ll be seeing hi-light reels of the “behind the back pass” again. Short term I think he’s going to be energized by the trade, long term I think he will fall back into his bad habits. He just seemed too hardwired to change his style of play. We’ll see how well Spezza and Derek Laxdal get along, I know Laxdal likes his teams to play an up-tempo game, and Spezza likes to drag his rear end, so we’ll see how that goes. I disagree with Phillips being able to skate at a good pace, you gotta see more videos of goals against us with him on the ice (BTW seems most GA are when he’s playing D) but you’ll notice his lack of speed is just as obvious as his lack of quick reaction time.

 

[bert]

Watching Stone in Binghamton for a few years, i've always thought that he looks like a brick sh*thouse on skates.

Guy is terrible with a pair of blades on his feet. You watch him next to a player like Hoffman or Pageau and it's night and day. Stone has talent, he can play, but i've always thought his biggest issue is his skating. He levels out at a third line winger at best imo.

I'll take hockey sense please. I don't care how he gets there but he does.
Him and Hoffman are polar opposites. Stone was so much better at the NHL level they aren't even comparable.

Nope they'll be giving Chiasson more opportunities to succeed because he was the main piece coming back in the Spezza deal.

No that's not how it works.

 

[bert]

The thing that I like most about both Stone and Chaisson is that they're both great in and around the front of the net.

We take a lot of shots on goal, and I don't foresee that changing as long as Erik karlsson is the driving force of our offence. We need some big bodied guys with soft hands to compliment our style of play and help us capitalize on more of those shots that are directed at the goal.

I think the organization identified chaisson for that very reason, and that he and stone are both going make an impact in that regard. I can see them both being long term members of the core.

Gotta love our size up front these days.

Excellent points! Loving the size this team has upfront right now.

 

[Samsquanch]

And how do you know that? I have listened to thousand hockey fans in the last 23 years telling me this and that will happen, but in reality, things rarely work out like fans/medias predictions...

Ex : Last spring on RDS (who are totally pro-Habs), all the dudes picked Boston to win the series but Habs still won. We have no idea what the future holds.

Whoa, pump the brakes man. No where did I say that anything was impossible. What you are describing above is called sport.

If we knew what was going to happen before the season started, why would we bother watching?

I simply think the roster you posted is not a team capable of doing any better than sneaking into the playoffs (at best).

So I'm not really sure why anyone can say "anytime soon", particularly with all the latent and potential in the organization... Is it because Spezza won't be back? Ok but what about healthier guys and additions like Legwand, Chiasson, Stone, Hoffman, possibly Lazar, etc.

Wait. Your listing Stone and Chaisson? Arent we discussing a scenario that they dont pan out in? I believe they actually both do, but just feel like we're in for a long season (maybe more) if they show they arent ready to be regulars in the top 9.

I think you've got the impression that Im down on the organization, and dont see a bright future. I do, a very bright one. We certainly dont need Spezza to improve, why would you say that?

We need one of the two sophomores in the top 9 to step up for us to step up as a team (preferably both along with Zibanejad who is also a must). I just dont see any other guys your listing as being nearly as close to being ready to make an impact in the top 9 in the next few years, aside from Lazar.

We already know that if our younger talent don't reach most of their potential, we won't be able to reach the next step, but HF is all about repeating so no problem.

Well then we agree aside from the fact that you believe we have other young (high end) talent ready to step in right away. Im cautiously optimistic about our prospect pool after Lazar.

We tend to massively overrate these guys, and there are no shortage of players like Puemple, Prince, Pageau, Hoffman, ect ect on almost every team in the leagues payroll.

Again, I feel we have great depth right now in the organization, but our chances of fielding a team better than 7th place go down considerably if Stone and Chaisson fail, and all of a sudden we're depending on some of those long shots to develop into legit top 6 guys.

 

[BK201]

I'll be honest I hope both are great and we can finally overhaul our third line.

 

[Qward]

I was a little concerned with Chiasson being a -21, but then I looked at Turris in his first start. He was -15 on a defensively strong team. Hopefully Chiasson turns out to being a Turris type.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

He also had very poor luck in terms of goaltending when he was on the ice, it was rather noticeably below average I believe

Or was that Legwand? Maybe both?

Well then we agree aside from the fact that you believe we have other young (high end) talent ready to step in right away. Im cautiously optimistic about our prospect pool after Lazar.

We tend to massively overrate these guys, and there are no shortage of players like Puemple, Prince, Pageau, Hoffman, ect ect on almost every team in the leagues payroll.

Again, I feel we have great depth right now in the organization, but our chances of fielding a team better than 7th place go down considerably if Stone and Chaisson fail, and all of a sudden we're depending on some of those long shots to develop into legit top 6 guys.

It's also a lot about chemistry when you are starting off your NHL career: get to play with someone you work well with and it will be a big confidence boost. None of guys are bluechip prospects (not even Lazar) but with our core I'm confident they'll be fine. Stone has looked solid and I think a lot of it comes from getting to play with people he fits well with and that is a big positive for prospects who aren't bluechippers.

 

[operasen]

I'll be honest I hope both are great and we can finally overhaul our third line.

I have a feeling that this team will have the energy of the teams when a young Fisher, Hossa and Havlat were learning their trade. And that will influence the top to the bottom of the lineup.

Guys like Turris, Zibanejad, Stone, Chaisson, Lazar, Puempel and others are coming hard.

We need to let Legwand lead; establish Ryan as a big weapon again; build around MacAthur; move Smith to the LW slot and give his some better line mates; help Michalek find his groove again , and say Thank You to Greening, Condra and Neil.

 

[KevinRedkey]

This is so tough for me

On one hand, I think Stone has a higher ceiling offensively. I think he's just as good as Chiasson is right now, but also might have a tougher time reaching his potential and being an impact player right now.

On the other, I think Chiasson is a little safer and would be a better fit on the 3rd line regardless.

If I could choose the lines, I'd do this and roll 3 balanced lines

MarArthur - Turris - Stone
Ryan - Legwand - Michalek
Chiasson - Zibby - Hoffman/Lazar
Greening - Smith - Neil/Condra

 

[Cosmix]

I was a little concerned with Chiasson being a -21, but then I looked at Turris in his first start. He was -15 on a defensively strong team. Hopefully Chiasson turns out to being a Turris type.

I have not seen Chiasson play so my views are based on hearsay, but from the reports I have read it appears he may be a slow skater which if true means he will not be another Turris type player as Turris is a very good skater. So, I anticipate he may be more like Mark Stone, an average skater with potentially some scoring potential. I believe I read somewhere that Dallas used Chiasson in front of the net on the powerplay. If true, that is good for us as we have lacked that type of player for a long time, particularly one who can score from in front of the net when being jostled by the defencemen. I am looking forward to seeing him play.

 

[Cosmix]

I have a feeling that this team will have the energy of the teams when a young Fisher, Hossa and Havlat were learning their trade. And that will influence the top to the bottom of the lineup.

Guys like Turris, Zibanejad, Stone, Chaisson, Lazar, Puempel and others are coming hard.

We need to let Legwand lead; establish Ryan as a big weapon again; build around MacAthur; move Smith to the LW slot and give his some better line mates; help Michalek find his groove again , and say Thank You to Greening, Condra and Neil.

Yes, I see it that way too. Neil is nearing the end of his career with two more seasons to play on his current contract; I am not sure the Senators will keep him around for the entire two years. Condra has one year left on his contract and has not earned a extension in my view so he is nearing the end of his career due to lack of offensive capability; he is easily replaceable. Greening has a chance to last longer because of his size and speed. I think last year was a temporary thing and he will rebound IF he plays with two other line mates who have some offensive skills (Smith yes, Neil no).

 

[aragorn]

I would like to see Chiasson play with Turris & MacArthur, not only would it spread out the scoring more but he would bring some size & toughness (protection) to that line & be able to benefit from their offensive play & pick up more pts with them. That would mean that Ryan could play with Michalek & Legwand creating a pretty good experienced 2nd line that would definately require more attention. Then follow that up with Smith, Zibanejad & Stone creating another big, tough scoring line & I would then create a 4th line of Greening, Grant & Neil, a nice combination of size, speed, toughness & good defensive play. I would trade, buy out or waive Condra.

MacArthur - Turris - Chiasson
Michalek - Legwand - Ryan
Z. Smith - Zibanejad - Stone
Greening - Grant - Neil/Hoffman

 

[tony d]

Chiasson now, Stone in the future.

 

[Minister of Offence]

Watching Stone in Binghamton for a few years, i've always thought that he looks like a brick sh*thouse on skates.

Guy is terrible with a pair of blades on his feet. You watch him next to a player like Hoffman or Pageau and it's night and day. Stone has talent, he can play, but i've always thought his biggest issue is his skating. He levels out at a third line winger at best imo.

Some people don't have a clue about talent evaluation.