Player Discussion: Steven Stamkos

[VoluntaryDom]

More than happy to re-litigate the debate: Steven Stamkos is a winger, not a center. He’s below average throughout his career at faceoffs, he is average defensively, at best, he’s not a playmaker, as established above, and he is a pure sniper. Those characteristics fit a winger perfectly.

The only thing that makes him a center is his pride, originally fostered and now flammed, by the Canadian media. I am completely fine with him staying at center given all of the miscellaneous factors. That does not change the fact, however, that he will toil around 30 goals a year for now on - despite his ability to produce much more - unless he tweaks his approach in a very easy way.

Stamkos has been pretty good defensively the past couple months. And this season he showed signs of becoming a playmaker. And he has improved in the dot. These issues you speak of appear to be fixing themselves.

 

[CupsOverCash]

People on the main boards made a good point about Stamkos. His playoff numbers are actually pretty normal. Obviously we want better from our number 1 overall pick but is it possible that we have been spoiled with the playoff play of Johnson and Kucherov? There arent too many players who have been as effective as they have in the playoffs.

 

[Hockey4Life91]

Stamkos has been pretty good defensively the past couple months. And this season he showed signs of becoming a playmaker. And he has improved in the dot. These issues you speak of appear to be fixing themselves.

That's all well and good. And I do not disagree. In fact, I said that I am fine with his average (or even slightly above average) performance in the foregoing areas. But don't miss the bigger picture. Stammer still continues to not play to his strengths, and that is severely hampering his ability to be elite. When he over-handles the puck and does not focus on shooting, Stammer is a 25-30/season goal scoring threat. That's great, every team salivates at having such a player on their team. Yet Stammer is easily a 40-50/season goal scoring threat. His regression has nothing to do with his injuries or wear and tear on his body.

Frankly, we have the highest odds of winning a cup for the foreseeable future right now. Next season will be similar. But given that we have already advanced and (knocking on wood) our players are in tact, right now presents our best shot. Having Stammer perform at a higher clip in the goal scoring department would make our scoring depth even more deadly and could make all of the difference in the world.

 

[HoseEmDown]

People on the main boards made a good point about Stamkos. His playoff numbers are actually pretty normal. Obviously we want better from our number 1 overall pick but is it possible that we have been spoiled with the playoff play of Johnson and Kucherov? There arent too many players who have been as effective as they have in the playoffs.

Pretty normal for who? He's a ppg player in the regular season, who scores goals at a 0.52 clip. In the playoffs he's a 0.75 ppg player and his goal totals drop to 0.29 per game. Those are decent drop offs from the regular season. There's plenty of guys who produce at the same pace or better in the playoffs. Alex Killorn goes from a 0.5 player to a 0.75 one, he also has more career playoff goals than Stamkos in less games. For the captain and highest paid player his production is very underwhelming and there's no way to spin it to make it look good.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Pretty normal for who? He's a ppg player in the regular season, who scores goals at a 0.52 clip. In the playoffs he's a 0.75 ppg player and his goal totals drop to 0.29 per game. Those are decent drop offs from the regular season. There's plenty of guys who produce at the same pace or better in the playoffs. Alex Killorn goes from a 0.5 player to a 0.75 one, he also has more career playoff goals than Stamkos in less games. For the captain and highest paid player his production is very underwhelming and there's no way to spin it to make it look good.

Im not trying to spin it to make it look good. Im just saying maybe its not as bad as we are making it. What I think they meant by normal is that its normal for point totals to decrease in the playoffs because of how closely some guys are defended. Some guys are able to step their games up no matter how much teams limit their time and space. Most are not. Others put up points because yes they raise their game, but also because they arent as paid attention to. A reason why depth is so important in the playoffs is because your best players are paid attention to a lot more and that means your depth has to step up too. Well I think the point they were making is that the guys stepping up were Johnson, Kucherov, Killorn and a few other guys did too. I think people in here have a good point about Stamkos not stepping up when he is needed to. I agree with that completely, but sometimes he never really had to. We had other guys step up. I am full agreement though that it would be nice to see our #1 overall pick captain step up and take pressure off the rest of his team.

 

[LightningStrikes]

I think both sides have a good point. I mean it's mindboggling that a guy like Killorn scores at about the same pace as Stamkos in the playoffs. In fact right now he's the better goal scorer out of the two: Killer has 19 goals and 38 points in 52 career playoff games. Stammer has 16 goals and 41 points in 54 games. If you take away this year's playoffs they compare 15 and 33 in 47 (Killorn) to 15 and 35 in 49 (Stamkos).

On the other hand it's the playoffs, depth wins championships, not superstars alone. We had Fedotenko stepping up in 2004. We had Bergenheim stepping up in 2011. It's a team effort and win.

All that said, Stamkos should be around ppg in the playoffs. How do guys like Kane, Toews, Kessel, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin or even Kucherov pull it off but not Stamkos?

 

[CupsOverCash]

I think both sides have a good point. I mean it's mindboggling that a guy like Killorn scores at about the same pace as Stamkos in the playoffs. In fact right now he's the better goal scorer out of the two: Killer has 19 goals and 38 points in 52 career playoff games. Stammer has 16 goals and 41 points in 54 games. If you take away this year's playoffs they compare 15 and 33 in 47 (Killorn) to 15 and 35 in 49 (Stamkos).

On the other hand it's the playoffs, depth wins championships, not superstars alone. We had Fedotenko stepping up in 2004. We had Bergenheim stepping up in 2011. It's a team effort and win.

All that said, Stamkos should be around ppg in the playoffs. How do guys like Kane, Toews, Kessel, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin or even Kucherov pull it off but not Stamkos?

Thats a good point. And right now Stamkos has Kucherov to steal the attention from him. Hell even Miller is deserving of some extra attention. Stamkos should be feasting from that.

 

[Sky04]

Im not trying to spin it to make it look good. Im just saying maybe its not as bad as we are making it. What I think they meant by normal is that its normal for point totals to decrease in the playoffs because of how closely some guys are defended. Some guys are able to step their games up no matter how much teams limit their time and space. Most are not. Others put up points because yes they raise their game, but also because they arent as paid attention to. A reason why depth is so important in the playoffs is because your best players are paid attention to a lot more and that means your depth has to step up too. Well I think the point they were making is that the guys stepping up were Johnson, Kucherov, Killorn and a few other guys did too. I think people in here have a good point about Stamkos not stepping up when he is needed to. I agree with that completely, but sometimes he never really had to. We had other guys step up. I am full agreement though that it would be nice to see our #1 overall pick captain step up and take pressure off the rest of his team.

I mean, you're making generalized statements as if you're an outsider and have never seen the team play before . Yes, the top guys are zoned in on in the playoffs - this doesn't exactly apply to Stamkos considering he saw 2nd defensive pairings almost every single time he's been in the playoffs. He got to play behind Lecavalier and St.louis in 2011, Mike Babcock specifically sent his 5 man shut down unit against Johnson's line in 2015 and everyone noticed, teams zone in on him less in the playoffs.

Didn't I just point out the Chicago series to you? You're saying he didn't need to step up when the top line got injured and produce more than 1 point in 6 games in a CUP FINAL? How about the Detroit series that got almost got us bounced in the first round in 2015? Where was Stamkos when we were on the verge of going down 3-1 in the series with 4 mins left in game 4? Or how about game 7 against the Pens, game 7 against the Bruins - did you really just allude that he's never had a moment he needed to step up?

 

[CupsOverCash]

I mean, you're making generalized statements as if you're an outsider and have never seen the team play before . Yes, the top guys are zoned in on in the playoffs - this doesn't exactly apply to Stamkos considering he saw 2nd defensive pairings almost every single time he's been in the playoffs. He got to play behind Lecavalier and St.louis in 2011, Mike Babcock specifically sent his 5 man shut down unit against Johnson's line in 2015 and everyone noticed, teams zone in on him less in the playoffs.

Didn't I just point out the Chicago series to you? You're saying he didn't need to step up when the top line got injured and produce more than 1 point in 6 games in a CUP FINAL? How about the Detroit series that got almost got us bounced in the first round in 2015? Where was Stamkos when we were on the verge of going down 3-1 in the series with 4 mins left in game 4? Or how about game 7 against the Pens, game 7 against the Bruins - did you really just allude that he's never had a moment he needed to step up?

Im saying that our depth was a big reason that Stamkos didnt have to step up as much in many of the games. Johnson, Kuch, Killorn all provided big goals. I am in agreement though that he needs to be better and really he should be the one stepping up due to his status as captain and being a former 1st overall pick too.

 

[Hoek]

Kucherov and Johnson's numbers are pretty unreal. Consider that stat that showed they are tops in the league in playoff goals since 2014 even though they missed the playoffs last year.

 

[Bolt32]

Kucherov and Johnson's numbers are pretty unreal. Consider that stat that showed they are tops in the league in playoff goals since 2014 even though they missed the playoffs last year.

Hence why I don't want Johnson to go anywhere. Hes a playoff beast. Kucherov on the other hand is a Demi-god come playoffs.

 

[DFC]

Im not trying to spin it to make it look good. Im just saying maybe its not as bad as we are making it. What I think they meant by normal is that its normal for point totals to decrease in the playoffs because of how closely some guys are defended. Some guys are able to step their games up no matter how much teams limit their time and space. Most are not. Others put up points because yes they raise their game, but also because they arent as paid attention to. A reason why depth is so important in the playoffs is because your best players are paid attention to a lot more and that means your depth has to step up too. Well I think the point they were making is that the guys stepping up were Johnson, Kucherov, Killorn and a few other guys did too. I think people in here have a good point about Stamkos not stepping up when he is needed to. I agree with that completely, but sometimes he never really had to. We had other guys step up. I am full agreement though that it would be nice to see our #1 overall pick captain step up and take pressure off the rest of his team.

I think you have to throw the point totals out the window. The foundation of our team, it seems, is three players: Stamkos, Hedman, and Kucherov (with Point making a case for himself by the game). If you were to watch every TB Lightning game in the Cooper era, but edit out all of the goals scored, you'd be able to tell that two of those players are dominant. The other actually takes a step back, and puts himself in a group of second tier players.

We are definitely lucky to have other guys who seem to put themselves in a higher tier come playoff time. I just think it's more about changing our view of what Stamkos is, because every trip to the post-season he underwhelms. A lot of his points in the NJ series were Teddy Purcell-type points.

 

[The Gongshow]

It's obvious Stammer eint the best player on this team but I'm still happy to have him apart of this franchise. He's done a lot for it and still plays a nice role on and off the ice for Tampa.

Is all this hate because of his playoff production? He has decent numbers(probably mostly pitty points) and never really takes over a series (although I recall him being a beast in the MTL and NYR series in 2015) but we don't necessarily need him for that because of the rest of this core that really steps up.

Usually a teams best player can win them a seires or the cup (ala Crosby and Kane) but again, Stamkos isn't our best player so why hate on him so much because he hasn't put up 18 points in 5 games already

They way I see it he's not costing us the cup in any way.

I understand both sides but I'm happy he's a bolt and not on some other team.

 

[DFC]

It's obvious Stammer eint the best player on this team but I'm still happy to have him apart of this franchise. He's done a lot for it and still plays a nice role on and off the ice for Tampa.

Is all this hate because of his playoff production? He has decent numbers(probably mostly pitty points) and never really takes over a series (although I recall him being a beast in the MTL and NYR series in 2015) but we don't necessarily need him for that because of the rest of this core that really steps up.

Usually a teams best player can win them a seires or the cup (ala Crosby and Kane) but again, Stamkos isn't our best player so why hate on him so much because he hasn't put up 18 points in 5 games already

They way I see it he's not costing us the cup in any way.

I understand both sides but I'm happy he's a bolt and not on some other team.

I don't think it's "hate," really. It's more like calling it what it is, which is that Stamkos is not a dominant nor elite player in the playoffs.

 

[Sky04]

It's obvious Stammer eint the best player on this team but I'm still happy to have him apart of this franchise. He's done a lot for it and still plays a nice role on and off the ice for Tampa.

Is all this hate because of his playoff production? He has decent numbers(probably mostly pitty points) and never really takes over a series (although I recall him being a beast in the MTL and NYR series in 2015) but we don't necessarily need him for that because of the rest of this core that really steps up.

Usually a teams best player can win them a seires or the cup (ala Crosby and Kane) but again, Stamkos isn't our best player so why hate on him so much because he hasn't put up 18 points in 5 games already

They way I see it he's not costing us the cup in any way.

I understand both sides but I'm happy he's a bolt and not on some other team.

"hate" - learn what criticism is.

You're bringing in irrelevant things.

Also, how stupid is the phrase " we don't need him because the rest of the guys step up" yet he takes home the biggest paycheck.

 

[Master P]

It's obvious Stammer eint the best player on this team but I'm still happy to have him apart of this franchise. He's done a lot for it and still plays a nice role on and off the ice for Tampa.

Is all this hate because of his playoff production? He has decent numbers(probably mostly pitty points) and never really takes over a series (although I recall him being a beast in the MTL and NYR series in 2015) but we don't necessarily need him for that because of the rest of this core that really steps up.

Usually a teams best player can win them a seires or the cup (ala Crosby and Kane) but again, Stamkos isn't our best player so why hate on him so much because he hasn't put up 18 points in 5 games already

They way I see it he's not costing us the cup in any way.

I understand both sides but I'm happy he's a bolt and not on some other team.

People will find things to complain about no matter what. The team could have swept new jersey and there would still be people complaining about something. Don't let the opinions of a few get in the way of enjoying the team or a player.

 

[Stammertime91]

If there's one team and one best of 7 game series in his career to perform differently than his history...

For the love of God please be this one.

 

[Master P]

I mean, you're making generalized statements as if you're an outsider and have never seen the team play before . Yes, the top guys are zoned in on in the playoffs - this doesn't exactly apply to Stamkos considering he saw 2nd defensive pairings almost every single time he's been in the playoffs. He got to play behind Lecavalier and St.louis in 2011, Mike Babcock specifically sent his 5 man shut down unit against Johnson's line in 2015 and everyone noticed, teams zone in on him less in the playoffs.

Didn't I just point out the Chicago series to you? You're saying he didn't need to step up when the top line got injured and produce more than 1 point in 6 games in a CUP FINAL? How about the Detroit series that got almost got us bounced in the first round in 2015? Where was Stamkos when we were on the verge of going down 3-1 in the series with 4 mins left in game 4? Or how about game 7 against the Pens, game 7 against the Bruins - did you really just allude that he's never had a moment he needed to step up?

Game 7 against the pens? You mean his first game back and one in which he CLEARLY was not 100%? Or the game 7 against the Bruins, where EVERYONE was shutdown and lost 1-0 and also the game in which he took a shot to the face and came back to finish the game? Those seem like pretty petty things to complain about. I'm not saying he doesn't need to step it up a notch, but you're acting like it should only be up to him to win the series. Having depth is what gets teams through the playoffs, not one single player. Players get shutdown in the playoffs and when you have a shot like Stamkos its not surprising to see series where he is negated. He's a shooter, not a play maker. Although it would appear he is trying to change his game into that.
Here are his playoff stats.

Are you upset because he's not scoring over a point per game?
41 pts in 54 games is not bad.

I mean, what kind of player do you think Stamkos is?


He's scored big goals for the team in the playoffs before. Here are just a few in case you've forgotten.

 

[Sky04]

Game 7 against the pens? You mean his first game back and one in which he CLEARLY was not 100%? Or the game 7 against the Bruins, where EVERYONE was shutdown and lost 1-0 and also the game in which he took a shot to the face and came back to finish the game? Those seem like pretty petty things to complain about. I'm not saying he doesn't need to step it up a notch, but you're acting like it should only be up to him to win the series. Having depth is what gets teams through the playoffs, not one single player. Players get shutdown in the playoffs and when you have a shot like Stamkos its not surprising to see series where he is negated. He's a shooter, not a play maker. Although it would appear he is trying to change his game into that.
Here are his playoff stats.

Are you upset because he's not scoring over a point per game?
41 pts in 54 games is not bad.

I mean, what kind of player do you think Stamkos is?


He's scored big goals for the team in the playoffs before. Here are just a few in case you've forgotten.

Your star player doing something in a big game - oh such high expectations. You do know that's 60 point pace right? Not bad if your name is Tyler Johnson paid 5m year as a depth player. I listed pressure games he's played in, are you upset he didn't do anything in them?

 

[Sky04]

I don't think it's "hate," really. It's more like calling it what it is, which is that Stamkos is not a dominant nor elite player in the playoffs.

I disagree, he's fully well and capable playing as an impact player in the playoffs with and without the puck, there's games in the regular season where he imposes his physicality (the guys insanely strong) yet you rarely see it in the playoffs. Kovalchuk wasn't a PPG player in the 2012 playoffs but the guy was a workhorse for the Devils and erased lots of preconceptions about him prior - Stamkos is very capable of doing the same, lets not set the bar low for a player of his caliber.

 

[Hockey4Life91]

With all the Stammer talk this week, it is worth highlighting that, in addition to focusing on shooting more, perhaps Cooper should show him clips of his broken nose (2011) and leg (2013) versus Boston on a loop. Maybe that will incite enough anger that Stammer wil escalate his game and personally show them the exit door.

On a different note, I hope Hedman also has bad memories from that Game 7 loss for a little extra juice.

 

[LonLon Lei]

We may not agree on certain things, but we all want him to play well, just like any other players on our team.
Go captain!!

 

[HoseEmDown]

Good news with Stamkos is we are only stuck with him for 6 more years after this. The great news is we are going to pick his successor with the 62th pick this year in the draft in Allen McShane a center from Oshawa. A little undersized at just 5'11 and could use some work on his skating, most notably his first step. Very good playmaker with a quality shot, Point like in that regard as more a passer but can score 20+ with no problem. Gonna spend two more years in the OHL before going to Syracuse for a year and a half then joining the big club to be the 3C for a Cup run, the next year he's the 2C with Stamkos the 3C and in Stamkos last year he's the highest paid 4C/healthy scratch in NHL history while McShane wins the Hart and Lindsey.

 

[Master P]

Your star player doing something in a big game - oh such high expectations. You do know that's 60 point pace right? Not bad if your name is Tyler Johnson paid 5m year as a depth player. I listed pressure games he's played in, are you upset he didn't do anything in them?

So when Kucherov signs his next deal and becomes the highest paid player on the team, will your "critiques" of Stamkos change since he won't be the highest paid player?

 

[DFC]

So when Kucherov signs his next deal and becomes the highest paid player on the team, will your "critiques" of Stamkos change since he won't be the highest paid player?

We're a better team when Stamkos is playing at something close to an elite level. I don't know that he's ever done that in the playoffs. Depth is our greatest strength, but depth is only depth when those players aren't as good as your stars. Right now, several depth players have, and currently are, outperforming one of our key stars.