Statistical Comparison Toronto - Pittsburgh

[Mess]

Quick, now do Save Percentage!

What is more important # of saves a goalie makes or the number of actual goals he surrenders in a game that determines the final score?

Goals against stats never lie !!

Similarly what is more important a players shooting % or shots on net or the actual goals he scores?

 

[BayStreetBullies*]

What is more important # of saves a goalie makes or the number of actual goals he surrenders in a game that determines the final score?

Goals against stats never lie !!

If you only post their goals against average, without taking into account how many shots a goalie faces and how many they have saved, then it doesn't mean much. Save percentages gives context to that. SV% doesn't lie, GAA can be deceiving by itself.

Similarly what is more important a players shooting % or shots on net or the actual goals he scores?

You don't believe there is a correlation between a higher shooting % and the # of goals they score? I'm interested to know how many 50 or 60 goal scorers have had a shooting percentage of less than 10% in that season, if any.

 

[Trainspotter]

What is more important # of saves a goalie makes or the number of actual goals he surrenders in a game that determines the final score?

Goals against stats never lie !!

Depends if you're measuring team success or goaltender skill. The conversation was comparing goaltender skill.

Similarly what is more important a players shooting % or shots on net or the actual goals he scores?

Depends on what you're measuring. If you're measuring a player's ability to turn shots into goals, then s% is the way to go. If you're measuring the number of shots he generates, count shots. If you're measuring goals, then measure goals. It's not hard. Though I know the fancystats crowd like to confuse some of this stuff and count one thing when they mean to count another.

 

[Mess]

If you only post their goals against average, without taking into account how many shots a goalie faces and how many they have saved, then it doesn't mean much. Save percentages gives context to that. SV% doesn't lie, GAA can be deceiving by itself.

How does quality of shots against reflect in save % ?

Saves / Shots against = SV%

Leafs get out shot most games by a fair margin.. It might show up in a goalies Sv% but it also means you have a weaker team in front of them.

Goals against / minutes played = GAA

GA >> Sv% because actual goals and not saves appear in the game score result determining team wins and losses. Saves are a derivative

If Toronto plays Pittsburgh who wins the game guaranteed, the goalie with the better GAA or SV% in the match?

 

[Trainspotter]

If Toronto plays Pittsburgh who wins the game guaranteed, the goalie with the better GAA or SV% in the match?

They aren't mutually exclusive. And GAA still doesn't speak as directly to goaltender skill.

 

[BayStreetBullies*]

Leafs get outshot most games by a fair margin.. It might show up in a goalies Sv% but it also means you have a weaker team in front of them.

Which just makes Reimer and Bernier's save % all the more impressive. And standings don't lie if you want to talk about weak teams, because Toronto does not fall into that category.

GA >> Sv% because actual goals and not saves appear in the game score result determining team wins and losses. Saves are a derivative

No, goals against is a team stat and also shows up in the +/- ratings of players where ES goals are concerned. Goals against average, however, is derived from (goals / total TOI) * 60. Not the same thing. SV% is more relevant to a goalie's quality of play than GAA.

 

[Mess]

They aren't mutually exclusive. And GAA still doesn't speak as directly to goaltender skill.

In every single NHL game (non shootout) the goalie (or team) with the lowest GAA wins the game guaranteed. The goalie with the best SV% doesn't guarantee anything as the goalie with the better SV% could be the losing goalie of the game.

So which would you prefer your goalie to have the lower GAA or the higher SV% in a game?

If its personal players stats you like then SV% is for you, however if your focused on team wins and losses then GAA is what you will be focused on. Games are determined by how many goals go in, not how many pucks a goalies stops unless he stops them all.

Skill evaluation is a completely different intangible evaluation and not restricted to SV%. Fleury might be on Team Canada in the Olympics ahead of Reimer or Bernier regardless if the Leafs goalies have the better save % at the time.

 

[BayStreetBullies*]

In every single NHL game (non shootout) the goalie (or team) with the lowest GAA wins the game guaranteed. The goalie with the best SV% doesn't guarantee anything as the goalie with the better SV% could be the losing goalie of the game.

Again, losses are more of a team stat and not reflective of a goalie's quality of play. Just like GAA is not as indicative of that as SV% is. This is strictly about comparing goaltenders, not the team infront of them, losses, or quality of shots.

 

[The Apologist]

Like the saying goes "put your money where your mouth is".

If one had to bet their own money on who would win the Stanley Cup this year between Pittsburgh and Toronto which team would you pick?

Safe money would be on the team that has won it recently, and boasts a Conn Smythe winner and among the best players in the World.

Would you bet on New Jersey winning the east before Toronto this year? They've done it more recently. Even more recently than Pittsburgh in fact.

Again, 2009 has absolutely no relevance to 2014. Just how long is Pittsburgh going to live off that cup anyway?

 

[The Apologist]

Again, losses are more of a team stat and not reflective of a goalie's quality of play. Just like GAA is not as indicative of that as SV% is. This is strictly about comparing goaltenders, not the team infront of them, losses, or quality of shots.

Does anybody on the planet use GAA to gauge a goalie anymore?

 

[Mess]

Again, losses are more of a team stat and not reflective of a goalie's quality of play. Just like GAA is not as indicative of that as SV% is. This is strictly about comparing goaltenders, not the team in front of them, losses, or quality of shots.

So are you saying the Reimer and Bernier will beat out Fleury for Team Canada if they have a better sv%?.

 

[The Apologist]

So are you saying the Reimer and Bernier will beat out Fleury for Team Canada if they have a better sv%?.

Are you saying GAA is the reason Fleury would be chosen?

 

[Patty Lee]

Pens injuries this year:

Neal (out 16 games)
Bennett (out 11 games)
Letang (out 9 games)
Martin (out 1 game and counting)
Scuderi (out 6 games and counting)
Vokoun (out 17 games and counting)
Kobasew (out 5 games and counting)

That should really say something about their records being the same this year. Bolland, Kulemin and Bozak are big losses, but they don't measure to what the Pens lost. This team has also been slumping after a hot start. Let's wait for more than 17 games to say who's better.

Leafs had another guy miss the first 10 games of the season

and more injuries than you've listed.

but why let the truth get in the way

 

[SprDaVE]

Leafs had another guy miss the first 10 games of the season

and more injuries than you've listed.

but why let the truth get in the way

Leafs lost JVR, Lupul, Fraser and Reimer at different times all ready this season.

Leafs have had their share of injuries. To say they haven't had as much as any team in this league is just foolish.

This isn't an excuse though. To me, top contending teams have depth to keep going even with tough losses. We are being tested dearly right now.

 

[Hero]

Penguins haven't been good recently.

Crosby has 1 goal in his last 9 games, with only 6 points
Malkin has 0 goals in his last 10 games, with only 7 points

These two won't stay like this, once they get going again the Pens will be a top team.

 

[Mess]

Does anybody on the planet use GAA to gauge a goalie anymore?

Does anyone gauge a goalie by the goals he gives up or the saves he makes?.

His saves is really a reflection on the Leafs opponents strength because after all they're the ones firing the shots at the Leafs goalies.

Leafs are often out shot and out played and the fact they shoot a lot less shot at opposing goalies hurts the opposing goalies sv%. In turn giving up lots of shots against often double digit differential helps pad Leafs sv%, but reflects poorly on the team in front of him in team strength.

If Reimer and Bernier's SV% wasn't in the top 10 overall and just league average the Leafs would be a very average team and not where they are now in the standings. Leafs high save % is actually masking Leafs team weakness by compensating for being outplayed regularly.

 

[Trainspotter]

So which would you prefer your goalie to have the lower GAA or the higher SV% in a game?

The question wasn't about a single game. Stay on point.

If its personal players stats you like then SV% is for you, however if your focused on team wins and losses then GAA is what you will be focused on.

I already said that. Good to see you're still no better at this.

 

[Patty Lee]

Leafs lost JVR, Lupul, Fraser and Reimer at different times all ready this season.

Leafs have had their share of injuries. To say they haven't had as much as any team in this league is just foolish.

This isn't an excuse though. To me, top contending teams have depth to keep going even with tough losses. We are being tested dearly right now.

according to error29 they have only missed Bolland, Kulemin and Bozak while he listed everyone but the janitor the Pens have missed

I was just pointing out his mistake. I guess his name fits

 

[Mess]

The question wasn't about a single game. Stay on point.

I already said that. Good to see you're still no better at this.

Philly's Steve Mason .925 SV% on 333 saves on 360 shots against good for 10th best overall just a few of spots behind Bernier who made 339 saves on 362 shots and a .931 sv%.

Bernier has faced 2 more shots and made 6 more saves on the season.

So are Bernier and Mason then comparables on talent because they have faced similar shots and made similar saves using save % as a gauge?.

Mason has better sv% than Fleury at .921 does that make him better?

Is Save % a good measure of team strengths?

 

[Magic Man]

So are you saying the Reimer and Bernier will beat out Fleury for Team Canada if they have a better sv%?.

Christ.. I would hope so.

 

[pooleboy]

And yet both teams have allowed 40 goals in 17 GP. Or maybe the only rational explanation is that the Leafs have been lucky.

good goaltending=lucky dude.

 

[Duffman955]

MAF GAA in previous 2 playoffs: 3.7

Riemer GAA in playoffs: 2.88

So on average Riemer lets in 1 less goal per game in the playoffs than fleury. Since GAA goes down in the playoffs, Riemer gives a significantly better chance of winning games than does fleury.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

The Pens are built with ** Strength down the Middle ** boasting 2 of the best players in the World at one of the most critical positions on a successful team.

Leafs are built with ** Strength on the Wings ** boasting one of the weaker center groups down the middle.

This is a major competent that separates the Pens from the Leafs that a comparison in team strength statistically needs to put significant value in.

Crosby and Malkin make their wingers Neal, Kunitz and Dupuis as statistically effective and productive as Kessel, JVR and Lupul when everyone is healthy. So if those 3 Pens wingers can essentially match Leafs 3 top wingers in goals and points than there is no match on the Leafs at center that can offset Crosby and Malkin statistically.

2 to 4 the Leafs are probably one of the stronger teams out there at centre. #1 is what they are missing.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Long, long 82 games with Olympics...

Patrick Roy/ Claude Lemieux knew this and didn't even start playing until it mattered. Let us get through the Olympics and see who gets spent or injured. These games mean nothing, the guys know it. Carlyle is pacing them as he slowly transforms them into his team. We are a playoff team..relax.

 

[Mr Scarface*]

Patrick Roy/ Claude Lemieux knew this and didn't even start playing until it mattered. Let us get through the Olympics and see who gets spent or injured. These games mean nothing, the guys know it. Carlyle is pacing them as he slowly transforms them into his team. We are a playoff team..relax.

I very much like this posting.
You are correct and I've written about this also. Glad you mentioned those players above too. These are some true winners who played the real game when it mattered.

We truly are built just for the playoffs and will go there because the team is just too hard for the reg.season also. Real nice to see. Carlyle and his soldiers will chess it up in the playoffs real big. Waiting for that there.