State Taxes Just Not Fair

[Spazkat]

Again, two different things. When the argument you mentioned is made, it groups all the "new teams" into a boat. This is about the Florida teams, Phoenix and Dallas and other places which attract FA's because of low taxes, weather and lack of pressure. Nashville and Columbus don't fall into this boat. It's not an attack on non traditional markets, it's an attack on the players for running away from playing where they were born and raised. I am hesitant to group Dallas as non traditional anyway, they are a guilty big market spender on the level of Ny, LA, Chi, Phi, Bos, Was, Tor, etc.

First off, Nashville absolutely does belong in that grouping. Tennessee has an income tax, but it only applies to income from stocks and bonds.... not to wages and salaries. So.... income tax free. They used to have the "jock tax" to make up for that but IIRC that was repealed a few years ago.

As to the other... you really think players have some obligation to play somewhere because they were born close by? People of all professions regularly leave the places they were born once they enter the workforce, many moving far away and often with absolutely no intention to return except to visit. Even people that didn't originally want to go end up loving the new place deciding to stay, even when the option does arise to go back. This whole line of thought sounds like sour grapes. As bad as the way many of the residents of Cleveland reacted when LeBron left.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Um. The "weather and lack of pressure" bit was not part of this thread originally, and it's not part of what folks keep bringing up. They fixate on taxes. Accordingly, Columbus indeed doesn't fall into that boat, but Nashville sure does.

I think the disconnect here is that you've got a fair grasp of all the factors going on, but don't realize that folks are monomaniacally focused on just one of them as tho it's the end-all-be-all, and insisting that their Big Spender teams be given some kind of privilege to work around that. You don't see anyone suggesting that Columbus get a break from taxes, or even NYI - it's Toronto and the Rangers and a few other Canadian teams.

Yes, there's a legit thing there. But that's not what folks are on.

Fair enough. I just think if UFAs were not avoid Canada so openly, this taxes thing would not be an issue at all.

You should have a word with those Swedish, Russian, Finnish and Czechs who forgot that they were born and raised north of the Mason Dixon.

What a crock.

First off, Nashville absolutely does belong in that grouping. Tennessee has an income tax, but it only applies to income from stocks and bonds.... not to wages and salaries. So.... income tax free. They used to have the "jock tax" to make up for that but IIRC that was repealed a few years ago.

As to the other... you really think players have some obligation to play somewhere because they were born close by? People of all professions regularly leave the places they were born once they enter the workforce, many moving far away and often with absolutely no intention to return except to visit. Even people that didn't originally want to go end up loving the new place deciding to stay, even when the option does arise to go back. This whole line of thought sounds like sour grapes. As bad as the way many of the residents of Cleveland reacted when LeBron left.

I was trying to post from a neutral prospective. I agree with you, but many Canadian fans increasingly feel just like that. Cap or not, the same teams are on the NTCs/NMCs. I don't have an issue with it, (I would do same frankly) but I see why some fans do.

The salary cap came into existence because teams like yours thought they could buy the best UFAs on the market and leave others in the dust.

If your looking for sympathy, look between **** and syphilis in the dictionary.

The Rangers, Flyers, Hawks, Dallas, Boston, Wsh and Det and Tor every now and then are still getting the best FAs. If people don't want to play in your city, then they don't want to go there. Cap or not, some guys just don't want to play in small markets. It is what it is.

 

[Knave]

It's amusing to me that people are still claiming it's some huge advantage and have gotten so desperate to make their case they went with Stamkos 'taking less' because they can't find the hordes of big name players heading directly to low tax jurisdictions.

It's almost like tax law is complex, these are multimillion dollar athletes who can hire people to work around them. It's almost like there are exchange rates. It's almost like maximizing all possible earnings isn't the be all and end all of these human beings who aren't just hockey players.

I'm not saying there is no advantage but it's not "here's my simplistic online tax calculator therefore certain teams in low income tax jurisdictions have a huge advantage!".

 

[Cherpak]

Fair enough. I just think if UFAs were not avoid Canada so openly, this taxes thing would not be an issue at all.



I was trying to post from a neutral prospective. I agree with you, but many Canadian fans increasingly feel just like that. Cap or not, the same teams are on the NTCs/NMCs. I don't have an issue with it, (I would do same frankly) but I see why some fans do.



The Rangers, Flyers, Hawks, Dallas, Boston, Wsh and Det and Tor every now and then are still getting the best FAs. If people don't want to play in your city, then they don't want to go there. Cap or not, some guys just don't want to play in small markets. It is what it is.

UFAs go where the MONEY is. Your fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.

Oh and by the way, my team has no issues picking up UFA's, back to back cups twice in their history proves that.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

First off, Nashville absolutely does belong in that grouping. Tennessee has an income tax, but it only applies to income from stocks and bonds.... not to wages and salaries. So.... income tax free. They used to have the "jock tax" to make up for that but IIRC that was repealed a few years ago.

As to the other... you really think players have some obligation to play somewhere because they were born close by? People of all professions regularly leave the places they were born once they enter the workforce, many moving far away and often with absolutely no intention to return except to visit. Even people that didn't originally want to go end up loving the new place deciding to stay, even when the option does arise to go back. This whole line of thought sounds like sour grapes. As bad as the way many of the residents of Cleveland reacted when LeBron left.

It is going to be fascinating to watch this since the anointed savior of the Leafs Matthews wouldn't exist without a hockey team down there and I am assuming they don't think he should leave Toronto out of some obligation to his home town. We shall see, I am hopeful over time he starts talking about how crummy it is to constantly take shots at the place he is from and the reason he is a NHL player.

Taxes are a fact of life, there is nothing you can do about that. Also the NHLPA won't go for this either so you have two sides that aren't going to care about this even if fans do.

 

[ColdSteel2]

It is going to be fascinating to watch this since the anointed savior of the Leafs Matthews wouldn't exist with a hockey team down there and I am assuming they don't think he should leave Toronto out of some obligation to his home town. We shall see, I am hopeful over time he starts talking about how crummy it is to constantly take shots at the place he is from and the reason he is a NHL player.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy in many ways.

 

[Melrose Munch]

UFAs go where the MONEY is. Your fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.

Oh and by the way, my team has no issues picking up UFA's, back to back cups twice in their history proves that.

So? Pittsburgh is mostly home grown, both cores they had. Were are you going to live cap or not, if you're offered $5 million US? NYC, DC or Pittsburgh. The first two cities without a second thought.

 

[Viqsi]

It is going to be fascinating to watch this since the anointed savior of the Leafs Matthews wouldn't exist without a hockey team down there and I am assuming they don't think he should leave Toronto out of some obligation to his home town. We shall see, I am hopeful over time he starts talking about how crummy it is to constantly take shots at the place he is from and the reason he is a NHL player.

The idea of Matthews walking out of Toronto in disgust does appeal to my sense of schadenfreude, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Orfieus]

Why should it be factored? New York has high taxes. People want to leave. Businesses want to leave. We're getting into politics now... but why should the NHL be responsible for irresponsible policies of voters and politicians?

Because the point of having a hard cap is so every team is equal with regards to pay players. When one team has the advantage to put more money into the players pocket without it counting against the cap it is an advantage.

It is also an advantage for a team, say Toronto, to offer a kid, say Matthews, a guaranteed sponsorship deal in lieu of a higher contract AAV

 

[glovesave_35]

I was trying to post from a neutral prospective. I agree with you, but many Canadian fans increasingly feel just like that. Cap or not, the same teams are on the NTCs/NMCs. I don't have an issue with it, (I would do same frankly) but I see why some fans do.

It's bizarre. I'm from Texas, a state that produces a ton of athletes in all major sports other than hockey. You basically never hear this same sense of entitlement about players from Texas or California playing for teams anywhere else in any other league. It's like a cool bonus thing as a fan of the Texas Rangers if a local kid is drafted and turns into something, or plays elsewhere and comes back to Dallas. But it is so different from the frankly absurd feeling of ownership among a lot of hockey fans.

The ensuing sense of betrayal is always a highlight as an outsider. "He wants to go where!?" despite those teams often having objectively stronger rosters and more recent success.

 

[Cherpak]

So? Pittsburgh is mostly home grown, both cores they had. Were are you going to live cap or not, if you're offered $5 million US? NYC, DC or Pittsburgh. The first two cities without a second thought.

Your opinion, nothing more.

Believe it or not, some players actually like winning and or like to be less in the media spotlight.

 

[Melrose Munch]

It's bizarre. I'm from Texas, a state that produces a ton of athletes in all major sports other than hockey. You basically never hear this same sense of entitlement about players from Texas or California playing for teams anywhere else in any other league. It's like a cool bonus thing as a fan of the Texas Rangers if a local kid is drafted and turns into something, or plays elsewhere and comes back to Dallas. But it is so different from the frankly absurd feeling of ownership among a lot of hockey fans.

The ensuing sense of betrayal is always a highlight as an outsider. "He wants to go where!?" despite those teams often having objectively stronger rosters and more recent success.

Honestly I thought the cap would stop this, but players have just stacked up on the NTCs. I think the feeling comes from so many stories of guys rejected playing in canada, even the ones playing for Canadian teams when leaving or getting traded. Heatley, Spezza, Nash come to mind.

Your opinion, nothing more.

Believe it or not, some players actually like winning and or like to be less in the media spotlight.

Which you can do in any US big market. Hockey is a job, a business and the majority of players never even get to the playoffs. And I hope you're not seriously claiming pittsburgh is on par with those cities.

 

[glovesave_35]

Which you can do in any US big market. Hockey is a job, a business and the majority of players never even get to the playoffs. And I hope you're not seriously claiming pittsburgh is on par with those cities.

I feel like this topic gets so muddled. I don't think anyone would put Pittsburgh on par with or above either of those two world class and world famous cities in terms of culture, arts, food, entertainment, etc. But the NHL is not comprised solely of 22 year old men with deep pockets and an insatiable thirst for a good time. Lots of these guys are married and frankly have a lot less time to be doing the fun stuff on offer in big cities than people in this thread are claiming.

A lot of the slightly older players have taken full advantage of the first class travel life that being a professional hockey player in North America allows. They eat at the best restaurants across the continent on the reg. They can go to a museum in their free time.

Pittsburgh, Columbus, Dallas, Nashville and a few others aren't going to be top five destinations on a foreigner's trip to North America, but that isn't really the discussion, is it?

 

[kaiser matias]

It is also an advantage for a team, say Toronto, to offer a kid, say Matthews, a guaranteed sponsorship deal in lieu of a higher contract AAV

That's expressly forbidden in the CBA. Teams can't offer financial incentives to players or their families that don't count against the salary cap.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I feel like this topic gets so muddled. I don't think anyone would put Pittsburgh on par with or above either of those two world class and world famous cities in terms of culture, arts, food, entertainment, etc. But the NHL is not comprised solely of 22 year old men with deep pockets and an insatiable thirst for a good time. Lots of these guys are married and frankly have a lot less time to be doing the fun stuff on offer in big cities than people in this thread are claiming.

A lot of the slightly older players have taken full advantage of the first class travel life that being a professional hockey player in North America allows. They eat at the best restaurants across the continent on the reg. They can go to a museum in their free time.

Pittsburgh, Columbus, Dallas, Nashville and a few others aren't going to be top five destinations on a foreigner's trip to North America, but that isn't really the discussion, is it?

Well I would say Dallas is up there. 7 million people and a huge airport, but I digress. I feel people in this thread are looking at the wrong thing, taxes, instead of NTCs. I mean you can pay less taxes in Alberta then anywhere, but has that helped the Oilers?

 

[Riptide]

Montreal is a world class city while Dallas is an armpit. 1.6M is a small price to pay for the difference in quality of life. You should be grateful Montreal collects the type of money it does while putting it all directly back into the community to better it for the benefit of all people.

And yet it's one that's frequently on players NTC's

 

[Blue Line Turnover]

People keep mentioning endorsements that are more readily available in bigger cities (TOR, NYC, MTL), but what do they mean? Are these endorsements that many players playing for that team are entitled to, or just the stars of that team? Are third and fourth line players receiving endorsements by playing for big market teams?

 

[KingsFan7824]

It's bizarre. I'm from Texas, a state that produces a ton of athletes in all major sports other than hockey. You basically never hear this same sense of entitlement about players from Texas or California playing for teams anywhere else in any other league. It's like a cool bonus thing as a fan of the Texas Rangers if a local kid is drafted and turns into something, or plays elsewhere and comes back to Dallas. But it is so different from the frankly absurd feeling of ownership among a lot of hockey fans.

The ensuing sense of betrayal is always a highlight as an outsider. "He wants to go where!?" despite those teams often having objectively stronger rosters and more recent success.

The hockey universe is more like that overall. Look at how hockey fans get defensive when the sport gets compared to other sports. The NBA? Who would watch that boring crap? Look at the American south. How many people in Canada(or even more traditional US cities) can't stand the "Bettman expansion" to begin with? Those cities aren't even supposed to have teams, let alone any top Canadian players.

Canadians still make up most NHL players, but there are three times as many teams in the US. A couple teams have moved from Canada to the US. There's the big deal about the last time a Canadian team won the Cup. Who is the best Canadian team? What other league has such a footprint in two different countries? Toronto has the one team in baseball and basketball. The NHL has a unique dynamic.

 

[glovesave_35]

Montreal is a world class city while Dallas is an armpit. 1.6M is a small price to pay for the difference in quality of life. You should be grateful Montreal collects the type of money it does while putting it all directly back into the community to better it for the benefit of all people.

I haven't even been to Montreal and I imagine it is a nicer city than Dallas, but armpit? That is harsh. Really hot in the summer but 3 of the 4 seasons are wonderfully comfortable. I hate summer but prefer the Dallas summer to northern winters without question.

 

[TehDoak]

NYC has more entertainment options than Minnesota! Let's ban players from going to nightlife options that aren't available for all 31 teams!

California and southern teams have wonderful weather year round! Let's stop players from going outside!!!

 

[Hawksfan2828]

I have brought this up before, but I can't fathom how a League that has a hard cap doesn't take differences in taxes into consideration.

Yes, I am from NYC, so people will call it sour grapes. But really, is Miami, Tampa, Dallas...bad places to play?

I think it is ridiculous that this is still an issue.

TB can literally offer Shattenkirk 1.5+ million more a year in his pocket for the same salary than the Habs, NYC teams, Boston....

The salary cap is crap to begin with...... It's basically NHL socialism...

It limits the growth of the league...... If a team cannot survive on it's own it shouldn't exist.....

 

[Hawksfan2828]

NYC has more entertainment options than Minnesota! Let's ban players from going to nightlife options that aren't available for all 31 teams!

California and southern teams have wonderful weather year round! Let's stop players from going outside!!!

That's why you let free markets dictate weather or not they have teams or not...

Here is a thought, no one deserves to have a team.... Hockey is a business, of course Bettman doesn't see it that way....

 

[Elephant Igloo]

The idea of Matthews walking out of Toronto in disgust does appeal to my sense of schadenfreude, but I'm not holding my breath.

Totally okay.

 

[Elephant Igloo]

How many people in Canada(or even more traditional US cities) can't stand the "Bettman expansion" to begin with?

It wasn't the expansion that made people mad, it was the expansion concurrent with the departure from smaller northern cities. If the North Stars, Nordiques, Jets, and Whalers had stuck around to this day while the league expanded, I don't think there would be this endless civil war. Of course, burning expansion slots on Denver and Dallas, which reasonably needed to be in the NHL, on the way to 30 probably means some places that have teams now don't get them.

 

[KingsFan7824]

That's why you let free markets dictate weather or not they have teams or not...

Here is a thought, no one deserves to have a team.... Hockey is a business, of course Bettman doesn't see it that way....

How is that all Bettman's doing? The previous owner in Chicago didn't care about fans. The guy in Boston is a hardliner. The Leafs were horribly run for a long time, but they're the Leafs, so people showed up.

3 of the 4 major leagues in NA have some form of a cap. Baseball even has revenue sharing. It's not like the NHL is out on a socialist limb there. The individual franchises in each league aren't trying to put the others out of business, or buy them out and put their team on TV in the new market.