Spooner on Claude relationship

[Dennis Bonvie]

So I'm stupid because I disagree with you? Really? No hate is needed in this instance because Claude has a long history of misusing youth, whether you want to admit it or not. It's just the reality of the situation. He's got a long track record doing it, and this season with Spooner was just another example of it. It goes back as long as he's been here.

Here's an interesting thing to discuss, IMO. Was Peter Chiarelli's drafting really that bad, or did Claude's misuse of the youth skew the perception? Look at the guys who've left recently. Seguin improved, Wheeler improved, Kessel improved. Colbourne is a solid NHL player now. Sobotka wasn't able to break through either. I think it's more of a combination of the poor drafting along with the misuse personally, but you can certainly say Claude's way of developing young players doesn't do the team any favors. That doesn't even cover guys like Krug who only got a shot due to injury. If they didn't have them, you'd never have seen the guy. Morrow is in this cycle right now along with Koko.

So young, inexperienced players got better with age and experience.

Yes, that does say a lot.

 

[LSCII]

at some point LSCII can figure out maybe it's him. Loui threads have gone the same way. it's probably not a coincidence now.

Solid contribution as always. It's why you're a valued member of our little community here. Truly. Valued. Irreplaceable, I'd say.

Question for you though, since you're so incredibly insightful. Why is it you continue to bring up a player and a thread that you specifically said was not of an interest to you? I know I typically don't bother posting or commenting about things I don't care about, yet that's all you seem to do here. Now I wouldn't be so bold as to suggest it's agenda driven, but if it quacks, it's usually a duck, no?

 

[ODAAT]

Trying to figure out what part of "I like playing for Claude" has fans thinking Bergy has issues with CJ?

I`ll wager Bergy is and would be perfectly fine with CJ behind the bench if the new GM and Neely decides that is how it will be

Bergy stated in the Herald not so long ago that he felt the players had a large role in what happened today(referring to Chia`s ousting)
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/...i_fired_takes_the_fall_for_bruins_lost_season

 

[Montecristo]

So I'm stupid because I disagree with you? Really? No hate is needed in this instance because Claude has a long history of misusing youth, whether you want to admit it or not. It's just the reality of the situation. He's got a long track record doing it, and this season with Spooner was just another example of it. It goes back as long as he's been here.

Here's an interesting thing to discuss, IMO. Was Peter Chiarelli's drafting really that bad, or did Claude's misuse of the youth skew the perception? Look at the guys who've left recently. Seguin improved, Wheeler improved, Kessel improved. Colbourne is a solid NHL player now. Sobotka wasn't able to break through either. I think it's more of a combination of the poor drafting along with the misuse personally, but you can certainly say Claude's way of developing young players doesn't do the team any favors. That doesn't even cover guys like Krug who only got a shot due to injury. If they didn't have them, you'd never have seen the guy. Morrow is in this cycle right now along with Koko.

I think Claude hurts players value more than players development. Chiarelli loses trades I think because Claude's system hurts production. I think the bad drafting is on chiarelli. The bad trades is partly on Claude. Would you be shocked if Reilly smith scored 25 in Dallas? Or Loui scored 30 there? And wouldn't that make them more valuable in a trade? So when we trade smith for whatever a 13-16 goal scorer is worth and then see our return play at a 13-16 goals per season level and smith explode for 25, that looks bad. That's partly on Claude. If I was chiarelli I would have realized that and then only trade players for picks and picks for players. Player for player trades almost always turned into a loss

 

[LSCII]

So young, inexperienced players got better with age and experience.

Yes, that does say a lot.

Sure, that's exactly what I'm saying.

You don't think that maybe, just maybe, the drafting wasn't the problem and maybe, just maybe it was how they were developed and utilized by Julien? Are you really suggesting that the way the coach used the young guys didn't possibly delay the upside of said players? You don't find it odd that rather than taking advantage of a players unique skill set, the focus here is always to make them into a solid two way player that's defensively responsible in all three zones, just so they fit the system? You never wondered why other teams can draft a guy and have that rookie come in and make an immediate impact offensively, yet our rookies seemingly never do? Even this year, when a guy like Pasta does, he doesn't start the year up here, and if he makes a mistake he rides the pine. How is a player supposed to learn if they know they make one mistake and take a seat? You don't find it odd that most systems have the flexibility to accommodate players of varied and diverse skills, yet the Bruins singular goal since Julien and Chiarelli were here was to amass the largest collection of two way grinders ever seen? I mean at what point do the lemming stop drinking the kool aid and wake up? The guy can't adjust his system to fit any offensive minded players, so the team has systematically moved on from them every chance they've gotten.

 

[LSCII]

I think Claude hurts players value more than players development. Chiarelli loses trades I think because Claude's system hurts production. I think the bad drafting is on chiarelli. The bad trades is partly on Claude. Would you be shocked if Reilly smith scored 25 in Dallas? Or Loui scored 30 there? And wouldn't that make them more valuable in a trade? So when we trade smith for whatever a 13-16 goal scorer is worth and then see our return play at a 13-16 goals per season level and smith explode for 25, that looks bad. That's partly on Claude. If I was chiarelli I would have realized that and then only trade players for picks and picks for players. Player for player trades almost always turned into a loss

And that's at least a fair way to look at it, rather than the dismissive rationale I'm getting from several others. It can't all be that every young player this team has ever gotten in the 8 years the guy has been coach isn't ready to play in this league. That's not only absurd, it's statistically improbable.

Teams incorporate young players all the time, well, teams not based in Boston.

 

[Jean_Jacket41]

And that's at least a fair way to look at it, rather than the dismissive rationale I'm getting from several others. It can't all be that every young player this team has ever gotten in the 8 years the guy has been coach isn't ready to play in this league. That's not only absurd, it's statistically improbable.

Teams incorporate young players all the time, well, teams not based in Boston.

You saying this doesn't make it true.

Bergeron
Lucic
Marchand
Krejci
Smith
Seguin
Wheeler
Spooner
Pastrnak
Hamilton
Krug
Etc

All these guys don't count?

Bruins incorporate young guys every year.

 

[HumBucker]

I've given you plenty of examples of other times where Julien has chosen the safe veteran over the young guy as well. Deny it all you want, the truth is there. If given the choice of young player with offensive upside or a limited veteran, he takes the veteran every time. I just can't even grasp the concept that this is something open for debate at this point.

This is fascinating. You're right. It isn't up for debate - not in this thread anyway. What IS up for debate - and what is the actual topic of this thread - is Claude and Spooner.

Thanks for admitting - and proving - for the first time that it's not that Claude hates Spooner. As you say, you've provided "plenty of examples of other times where Julien has chosen the safe veteran over the young guy."

So it's not that he has a thing against Spooner, right?

Deny it all you want, the truth is there.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Sure, that's exactly what I'm saying.

You don't think that maybe, just maybe, the drafting wasn't the problem and maybe, just maybe it was how they were developed and utilized by Julien? Are you really suggesting that the way the coach used the young guys didn't possibly delay the upside of said players? You don't find it odd that rather than taking advantage of a players unique skill set, the focus here is always to make them into a solid two way player that's defensively responsible in all three zones, just so they fit the system? You never wondered why other teams can draft a guy and have that rookie come in and make an immediate impact offensively, yet our rookies seemingly never do? Even this year, when a guy like Pasta does, he doesn't start the year up here, and if he makes a mistake he rides the pine. How is a player supposed to learn if they know they make one mistake and take a seat? You don't find it odd that most systems have the flexibility to accommodate players of varied and diverse skills, yet the Bruins singular goal since Julien and Chiarelli were here was to amass the largest collection of two way grinders ever seen? I mean at what point do the lemming stop drinking the kool aid and wake up? The guy can't adjust his system to fit any offensive minded players, so the team has systematically moved on from them every chance they've gotten.

No, I don't.

Guys like Sidney Crosby make an immediate impact. How about those Edmonton studs? Top pick after top pick but no success.

Most players that come straight into the league are top picks. You know, like Kessell
and Seguin, who both played right away. Both played because of their offensive ability. Both played 3 seasons (starting out as teens), both improved each year and each were playing a regular shift in the playoffs at 21 for a contender. Sounds like decent development to me.

Any system in today's NHL can accommodate offensive-minded players. But none of them work as well with players uninterested in playing that system.

 

[LSCII]

You saying this doesn't make it true.

Bergeron
Lucic
Marchand
Krejci
Smith
Seguin
Spooner
Pastrnak
Hamilton
Krug
Etc

All these guys don't count?

Bruins incorporate young guys every year.

Krug came in and played regularly for the first time during the playoffs. After they had already decided to go with Wade Redden before him. The only reason Krug played was because Redden got hurt.

Hamilton got 42 games his first season. He certainly saw the bench more often than not, and especially down the home stretch of the season, which actually backs up my point that Julien prefers safe and predictable play rather than the upside of youth.

Pasta was sent down initially. Only got up here due to injury and still barely managed 46 games, and was also sat a lot for miscues.

Spooner was given 20 games the year before, outproduced Kelly in his spot during that time and yet was sent down. This year he was released from camp and only started the season up because DK got hurt. First chance he had, sent him back down. Only came back up because they had no other viable options.

Seguin was similar to Hamilton in that he was brought along very slowly. Even sat in the playoffs and didn't get a chance to play until the tampa series and bergeron getting hurt.

Smith had a half season with Dallas already before coming here. But again, two way player, fits the style of Julien, so he got time his first year here. Didn't deserve the time he got this season, especially when looking at production.

Krejci played under Lewis first for a brief period, but during Julien's first season here, he still only got in 56 games.

Marchand got 20 random games before officially making the team the following year and then still had to start on the 4th line and move up. He had great camps prior to making the team but got sent down.

Lucic was about the one guy who doesn't follow the pattern. He played his rookie year, even when he had junior eligibility left. Makes sense though because he was far more of a physical player and the offense he offered was very limited at that point. He also started on the bottom six, IICRC.

Bergeron was already in the league for 3 years and had 2 seasons of 70 points or more. Do you really give Julien credit for developing a guy who scored 31 goals in year two of his career? Do you really think a guy with nearly 230 NHL games is a guy who wasn't NHL ready? Sort of a finished product by the team Julien got here, no?

How about this one though. The year before they moved Colborne at the deadline, he crushed it in camp. Was the last guy cut. Clearly deserved to make the team if you based it only on play. But he wasn't there. Marchand had this happen before as well.

You left Kessel off the list as well. And that's a big one. Played 70 games his rookie season and was sheltered like Seguin and Hamilton at times. In his second year, where he was good enough to play all 82 regular season games, he was benched in the playoffs. In favor of Jeremy Reich. Jeremy Reich ended up taking a horrendous penalty that cost them a game too. It wasn't until game four that Kessel saw time and guess what? He put up 3 goals and one assist in four games. Jeremy Reich did not register a point. Jeremy ****ing Reich. Yet people say I'm making this **** up? Hilarious.

 

[LSCII]

No, I don't.

Guys like Sidney Crosby make an immediate impact. How about those Edmonton studs? Top pick after top pick but no success.

Most players that come straight into the league are top picks. You know, like Kessell
and Seguin, who both played right away. Both played because of their offensive ability. Both played 3 seasons (starting out as teens), both improved each year and each were playing a regular shift in the playoffs at 21 for a contender. Sounds like decent development to me.

Any system in today's NHL can accommodate offensive-minded players. But none of them work as well with players uninterested in playing that system.

There's a huge difference between a guy coming in on a bad team and a guy coming into a cup caliber team, no? This team and the veterans they have can certainly support and handle a young offensive minded player being thrown into the mix, IMO. Yet they don't.

Also, if none of those Edmonton guys have panned out, why are so many people here interested in trading Lucic for them?

 

[LSCII]

This is fascinating. You're right. It isn't up for debate - not in this thread anyway. What IS up for debate - and what is the actual topic of this thread - is Claude and Spooner.

Thanks for admitting - and proving - for the first time that it's not that Claude hates Spooner. As you say, you've provided "plenty of examples of other times where Julien has chosen the safe veteran over the young guy."

So it's not that he has a thing against Spooner, right?

Deny it all you want, the truth is there.

If Spooner is a young player, and I've shown Claude has a bias against young players, well, you can extrapolate the rest out, no?

 

[Jean_Jacket41]

Krug came in and played regularly for the first time during the playoffs. After they had already decided to go with Wade Redden before him. The only reason Krug played was because Redden got hurt.

Hamilton got 42 games his first season. He certainly saw the bench more often than not, and especially down the home stretch of the season, which actually backs up my point that Julien prefers safe and predictable play rather than the upside of youth.

Pasta was sent down initially. Only got up here due to injury and still barely managed 46 games, and was also sat a lot for miscues.

Spooner was given 20 games the year before, outproduced Kelly in his spot during that time and yet was sent down. This year he was released from camp and only started the season up because DK got hurt. First chance he had, sent him back down. Only came back up because they had no other viable options.

Seguin was similar to Hamilton in that he was brought along very slowly. Even sat in the playoffs and didn't get a chance to play until the tampa series and bergeron getting hurt.

Smith had a half season with Dallas already before coming here. But again, two way player, fits the style of Julien, so he got time his first year here. Didn't deserve the time he got this season, especially when looking at production.

Krejci played under Lewis first for a brief period, but during Julien's first season here, he still only got in 56 games.

Marchand got 20 random games before officially making the team the following year and then still had to start on the 4th line and move up. He had great camps prior to making the team but got sent down.

Lucic was about the one guy who doesn't follow the pattern. He played his rookie year, even when he had junior eligibility left. Makes sense though because he was far more of a physical player and the offense he offered was very limited at that point. He also started on the bottom six, IICRC.

Bergeron was already in the league for 3 years and had 2 seasons of 70 points or more. Do you really give Julien credit for developing a guy who scored 31 goals in year two of his career? Do you really think a guy with nearly 230 NHL games is a guy who wasn't NHL ready? Sort of a finished product by the team Julien got here, no?

How about this one though. The year before they moved Colborne at the deadline, he crushed it in camp. Was the last guy cut. Clearly deserved to make the team if you based it only on play. But he wasn't there. Marchand had this happen before as well.

You left Kessel off the list as well. And that's a big one. Played 70 games his rookie season and was sheltered like Seguin and Hamilton at times. In his second year, where he was good enough to play all 82 regular season games, he was benched in the playoffs. In favor of Jeremy Reich. Jeremy Reich ended up taking a horrendous penalty that cost them a game too. It wasn't until game four that Kessel saw time and guess what? He put up 3 goals and one assist in four games. Jeremy Reich did not register a point. Jeremy ****ing Reich. Yet people say I'm making this **** up? Hilarious.

How any of this not prove that the Bruins, unlike what you previously said, don't incorporate young guys every year?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

There's a huge difference between a guy coming in on a bad team and a guy coming into a cup caliber team, no? This team and the veterans they have can certainly support and handle a young offensive minded player being thrown into the mix, IMO. Yet they don't.

Also, if none of those Edmonton guys have panned out, why are so many people here interested in trading Lucic for them?

No one said they haven't panned out. I said they have had no success. Stepping right in and playing a lot at the NHL level has simply taught them how to be good losers. Because kids are not ready to play effectively at the NHL level straight out of juniors.

 

[LSCII]

No one said they haven't panned out. I said they have had no success. Stepping right in and playing a lot at the NHL level has simply taught them how to be good losers. Because kids are not ready to play effectively at the NHL level straight out of juniors.

So you're pinning a lack of team success on their young players as proof young players can't come in and contribute? Taylor Hall came in and scored 22 his rookie year. Followed that up with 27 goals the next year. Scored 80 points last season. So it's rather unfair to put the team's lack of success on him, when he's come in and done his part, no? Eberle has come in and scored 20+ 3 times and 30+ one time. Nugent-Hopkins has been right around 20 goals a couple of year and finally broke through that this season. Out of their recent high picks, I'd say the really biggest let down right now has been Yakupov. But they have bigger issues than scoring. They have bad d and horrible net play. Nothing those guys do can fix that.

 

[LSCII]

How any of this not prove that the Bruins, unlike what you previously said, don't incorporate young guys every year?

They do, only if they're forced to. All the guys you listed for the most part got a chance to play only when older and worse players got hurt. Given the choice, Julien would take a stiff like Gagne over a rookie like Ferlin every day of the week. Doesn't matter that in the same roles, Ferlin looked a million times better. If Gagne didn't leave the team he'd have still been getting rolled out night after night. Safe play is better than risky play, even if that risk brings more upside.

 

[HumBucker]

If Spooner is a young player, and I've shown Claude has a bias against young players, well, you can extrapolate the rest out, no?

You're hopeless at logic. Don't even try.

Your point was that Claude has a bias against all young players in general. Therefore it's nothing personal between him and Spooner, in particular.

Which is, y'know, the point of this thread?

What's funny about this is that you got so caught up in your Clode Hate that you kept widening the circle until you ended up ensnaring yourself in your own "logic."

 

[HumBucker]

Krug came in and played regularly for the first time during the playoffs. After they had already decided to go with Wade Redden before him. The only reason Krug played was because Redden got hurt.

Hamilton got 42 games his first season. He certainly saw the bench more often than not, and especially down the home stretch of the season, which actually backs up my point that Julien prefers safe and predictable play rather than the upside of youth.

Pasta was sent down initially. Only got up here due to injury and still barely managed 46 games, and was also sat a lot for miscues.

Spooner was given 20 games the year before, outproduced Kelly in his spot during that time and yet was sent down. This year he was released from camp and only started the season up because DK got hurt. First chance he had, sent him back down. Only came back up because they had no other viable options.

Seguin was similar to Hamilton in that he was brought along very slowly. Even sat in the playoffs and didn't get a chance to play until the tampa series and bergeron getting hurt.

Smith had a half season with Dallas already before coming here. But again, two way player, fits the style of Julien, so he got time his first year here. Didn't deserve the time he got this season, especially when looking at production.

Krejci played under Lewis first for a brief period, but during Julien's first season here, he still only got in 56 games.

Marchand got 20 random games before officially making the team the following year and then still had to start on the 4th line and move up. He had great camps prior to making the team but got sent down.

Lucic was about the one guy who doesn't follow the pattern. He played his rookie year, even when he had junior eligibility left. Makes sense though because he was far more of a physical player and the offense he offered was very limited at that point. He also started on the bottom six, IICRC.

Bergeron was already in the league for 3 years and had 2 seasons of 70 points or more. Do you really give Julien credit for developing a guy who scored 31 goals in year two of his career? Do you really think a guy with nearly 230 NHL games is a guy who wasn't NHL ready? Sort of a finished product by the team Julien got here, no?

How about this one though. The year before they moved Colborne at the deadline, he crushed it in camp. Was the last guy cut. Clearly deserved to make the team if you based it only on play. But he wasn't there. Marchand had this happen before as well.

You left Kessel off the list as well. And that's a big one. Played 70 games his rookie season and was sheltered like Seguin and Hamilton at times. In his second year, where he was good enough to play all 82 regular season games, he was benched in the playoffs. In favor of Jeremy Reich. Jeremy Reich ended up taking a horrendous penalty that cost them a game too. It wasn't until game four that Kessel saw time and guess what? He put up 3 goals and one assist in four games. Jeremy Reich did not register a point. Jeremy ****ing Reich. Yet people say I'm making this **** up? Hilarious.

You're not "making it up," but it's certainly a very special kind of reality you live in.

So all of this just to say that most young players take a little time before they stick, especially on a team that stresses a 3-zone game?

 

[Jean_Jacket41]

They do, only if they're forced to. All the guys you listed for the most part got a chance to play only when older and worse players got hurt. Given the choice, Julien would take a stiff like Gagne over a rookie like Ferlin every day of the week. Doesn't matter that in the same roles, Ferlin looked a million times better. If Gagne didn't leave the team he'd have still been getting rolled out night after night. Safe play is better than risky play, even if that risk brings more upside.

You could say that for any top teams in the league.

The fact is, the Bruins do incorporate young players every year and they have all become part of the core over the years.

 

[RedeyeRocketeer]

Man some people doing some WORK in here. Nice to not have to type and just watch.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

So you're pinning a lack of team success on their young players as proof young players can't come in and contribute? Taylor Hall came in and scored 22 his rookie year. Followed that up with 27 goals the next year. Scored 80 points last season. So it's rather unfair to put the team's lack of success on him, when he's come in and done his part, no? Eberle has come in and scored 20+ 3 times and 30+ one time. Nugent-Hopkins has been right around 20 goals a couple of year and finally broke through that this season. Out of their recent high picks, I'd say the really biggest let down right now has been Yakupov. But they have bigger issues than scoring. They have bad d and horrible net play. Nothing those
guys do can fix that.

That Dubnyk guy was terrible for Edmonton.

But on a squad that plays team defensive he was one of the top 2 goalies in the league this year.

You seem to think that simply putting up point makes a player successful. That would make Eberle and Nugent-Hopkins better than Bergeron this past season.

 

[Mainehockey33]

Man some people doing some WORK in here. Nice to not have to type and just watch.

Something we can all agree on

 

[PB37]

So tell me which playoff winning team and coach won't bench a rookie for a mistake(s) in favor of older veterans who know the system?

Cmon....this is nothing new. This has been going on since the start of organized sports. If you're a rookie/younger player and you **** up or you're doing something stupid the coaches don't like, you'll be hitting the bench. Veterans have more leeway. Some of you act like Julien is a poor teacher when every single shred of evidence, from players mouths, to stats, to league wide respect, shows otherwise.

Get over yourselves already

 

[DNE3]

You could say that for any top teams in the league. The fact is, the Bruins do incorporate young players every year and they have all become part of the core over the years.

Half the roster was around in 2010-11. Only four players under 23 years age on the roster at end of this season, no youth movement there. Claude believes in seniority, for better or worse, and keeps his options limited. Or I should say, he did in the past, but no more.

 

[njbruin*]

So tell me which playoff winning team and coach won't bench a rookie for a mistake(s) in favor of older veterans who know the system?

Cmon....this is nothing new. This has been going on since the start of organized sports. If you're a rookie/younger player and you **** up or you're doing something stupid the coaches don't like, you'll be hitting the bench. Veterans have more leeway. Some of you act like Julien is a poor teacher when every single shred of evidence, from players mouths, to stats, to league wide respect, shows otherwise.

Get over yourselves already

The bigger question should be what other playoff winning team and coach would bench a veteran who knows the system but continues to make mistakes - the answer NOT CLAUDE , he just increases their minutes , plays them in extra man situations and after every goal.