Spin-Off Semin Discussion (from draft thread)

[Finlandia WOAT]

Semin/skinner/lindy/marmer on wing won't scare a soul in the nhl. 4 variations of the same tune with lindy being the "physical presence" of the bunch. I don't see us doing this. I agree that line would be fun to watch but I'm not convinced it would be that hard to defend.

I see us wanting a big skill winger or a dman. If we take a center it would have to be someone actually playing center imo.

Marner has something that skinner and semin lack though; ridiculous amounts of hockey sense.

Right now only estaal and Lindholm have excellent hockey sense AND physical, tangible talent. Estaal is starting to decline, Lindholm is a teenager. Everyone else is one or the other, with some having the other in spades to spare.

After mcdavid and eichel marner is the clear best forward. Tier 1.5. I say the canes would be fools to pass if he fell to their spot.

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[RodTheBawd]

Marner has something that skinner and semin lack though; ridiculous amounts of hockey sense.

Right now only estaal and Lindholm have excellent hockey sense AND physical, tangible talent. Estaal is starting to decline, Lindholm is a teenager. Everyone else is one or the other, with some having the other in spades to spare.

After mcdavid and eichel marner is the clear best forward. Tier 1.5. I say the canes would be fools to pass if he fell to their spot.

Are you implying that Semin doesn't have much hockey sense?

 

[Blueline Bomber]

A Toronto global mod just posted this:



Is that true? I thought it was playoff or no playoff. That's quite the game changer if it's accurate, which I'll admit, I'm skeptical of.

It means the same thing. Since all non-playoff teams are entered in the lottery, the pick being "lottery-protected" means if LA misses, they keep the pick.

Are you implying that Semin doesn't have much hockey sense?

Depends. Are we talking about Semin in the past, or Semin this year? Because he's made enough boneheaded decisions this year to make me question his hockey sense.

 

[nobuddy]

Depends. Are we talking about Semin in the past, or Semin this year? Because he's made enough boneheaded decisions this year to make me question his hockey sense.

Yes because players can lose hockey sense.

It's like when I go to McDonald's every day and then one day they just forget how to make me a Big Mac and I'm like smh.

 

[tomdundo]

^ Okay, I literally laughed out loud. Thank you for that, SG.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Yes because players can lose hockey sense.

It's like when I go to McDonald's every day and then one day they just forget how to make me a Big Mac and I'm like smh.

I'm amazed you equate hockey to making a hamburger.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I'm amazed you equate hockey to making a hamburger.

u are a sens fan... the entire fanbase has been comparing hockey players to hamburgers for like a month and a half

 

[Sens1Canes2]

u are a sens fan... the entire fanbase has been comparing hockey players to hamburgers for like a month and a half

Lol. Very nice.

 

[nobuddy]

I'm amazed you equate hockey to making a hamburger.

maintaining the knowledge isn't any different

having the knowledge is what's different.

knowing how to play the game of hockey is obviously much harder than knowing how to make a big mac

it's like tying your shoes, except hockey sense seems to be more innate. which, again, not something that really goes away.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Also, Semin has plenty of hockey sense this year and all years. Just because he doesn't shoot doesn't mean you get to make things up.

Relative to his impressive tool set? I'd say no.

Now, Semin isn't a "all the tools, no tool box" kind of guy. He has hockey sense, I'm saying that it's not the strong point of his game. As I said above, he doesn't have"ridiculous amounts" of hockey sense.

Which is a problem when you have Jeff Skinner, Jordan Staal, Nathan Gerbe, etc. etc. etc., who all have the same issue. It's a team wide problem, and you can see it in their play. A lot of their time is spent chasing the puck around the offensive zone instead of getting open and receiving passes.

Now, Lindholm and Rask, to me, look like they do NOT fit this mold, which is good. E. Staal doesn't too, I think, but he's getting older.

We'd still have all four of them in our top six wingers. Even if he is somehow "smarter" than the other three. Or two like you said.

But only Skinner and Lindholm have a decent chance of being around when Marner becomes a legitimate NHL threat. At which point, Rask and Lindholm could magically transform into the next Backstrom and Forsberg [Edit: I want to emphasize, the point isn't that I'm overrating the potential of those two players: but that it is incredibly difficult to project team needs 2+ years into the future]. Semin isn't in the long term plans.

It's why I'm wary of Crouse. I haven't seen him play, but he should be dominating more given his skillset.

 

[Joe McGrath]

maintaining the knowledge isn't any different

having the knowledge is what's different.

knowing how to play the game of hockey is obviously much harder than knowing how to make a big mac

it's like tying your shoes, except hockey sense seems to be more innate. which, again, not something that really goes away.

I'm confused, are you suggesting Semin always made terrible decisions or that he isn't making terrible decisions.

 

[nobuddy]

I'm confused, are you suggesting Semin always made terrible decisions or that he isn't making terrible decisions.

there's a world of difference between decision making and hockey sense

 

[Blueline Bomber]

there's a world of difference between decision making and hockey sense

Gonna need to see your definition of hockey sense then, since those two go hand-in-hand in my mind. Decision making with the puck and positioning away from the puck are the two biggest indicators of a player's hockey sense, IMO.

 

[nobuddy]

Gonna need to see your definition of hockey sense then, since those two go hand-in-hand in my mind. Decision making with the puck and positioning away from the puck are the two biggest indicators of a player's hockey sense, IMO.

It's much more than that, limiting it to those two is a very simplistic definition.

"Positioning away from the puck" is so much more complex than just saying that.

Watch Marian Hossa play away from the puck. Or Patrice Bergeron. Semin's not in that league in play away from the puck, but he's not far off.

There's a reason he's always had fantastic fancy stats despite never looking like he tries hard. It's because he rarely has to skate hard. You see people praise "effort defensive plays" like backchecks. Lots of the time those are good plays, but very often the only reason those effort plays happen is because someone royally ****ed up and the huge effort is needed to save their bacon.

Great defensive play isn't primarily based on effort. It's primarily based on positioning. If offense is the active state in hockey, then defense is the passive state. Justin Williams is another example I think. He doesn't have a reputation as being great defensively (he certainly has one for being good), but he is. His hockey sense is outstanding and as a result is defensive zone and neutral zone play is good.

I really don't feel the need to defend Semin's offensive hockey IQ. If you legitimately think he has a problem there, you're mistaken. Most of the "poor decisions" he makes now are just because he thinks the game better than the players he's playing with.

Tripp won't shut the **** up about him playing a fast, north-south game, but when he was point per game in 2013 that wasn't the way Semin was playing at all. He was moving through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone exactly the same way he is now. The same deliberation, the same looking through, scanning his options, etc. I think the main difference is confidence in his shot. That would explain why he's shooting less and why he's scoring less. His assists per 60 are barely down from last year.

This summer when I get around to it I'll write a post with video/image/gif examples to show what I'm talking about.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Semin attempting to pass through 4 bodies or attempting a deke when all he needed to do was get it on net is not what I would call "thinking the game better than those he's playing with." I would call them unnecessary, unforced turnovers. But again, that's just me.

And I wish I could chalk it up to the injury he was apparently going through, but considering he's done those exact things a couple times in the past few games, I'm starting to think it's got very little to do with his wrist at all. At this point, I'm just hoping its confidence-related and that he'll make better decisions next year.

 

[What the Faulk]

Wrists don't magically heal over night. If he was 60% before he might only be 80% tomorrow. Also much more often than not, that "pass through four bodies" finds its way to an offensive teammates' stick where the chance is then flubbed. Blame him for his lack of shooting, but poor passing because of bad hockey sense is such a mischaracterization you may as well be writing a fan fiction.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

I always find it strange that the defenders of Semin are always the same guys, and the detractors are always the same. And they both fit a nice subset of fans...those who love numbers, and those who value their eyes.

I truly wonder if they also fall into the subset of those who did not play hockey (competitively) and those who did at some level.

Just wondering, in a super passive aggressive way.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

i am a semin defender and i play hockey irl

also i contribute nothing of worth to the forum just like he contributes nothing of worth to the hockey team

jk u know wha ti mean lol

 

[BrindAmours Army]

Numbers don't lie, but your eyes and memories often do.

 

[nobuddy]

I always find it strange that the defenders of Semin are always the same guys, and the detractors are always the same. And they both fit a nice subset of fans...those who love numbers, and those who value their eyes.

I truly wonder if they also fall into the subset of those who did not play hockey (competitively) and those who did at some level.

Just wondering, in a super passive aggressive way.

I played hockey competitively for awhile.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

I played hockey competitively for awhile.

Then it surprises me that "being on the same page" - which Semin hasn't been all season - doesn't seem to you as lacking hockey sense.

Unless you are one of those guys I used to play against in the Rec Zone league. Great hands, decent skater - but thought doing figure eights around guys was impressive, would get drilled (semi-legally), then other team would go and score. They were kids, tho, so they needed to be taught a lesson.

 

[DaveG]

I always find it strange that the defenders of Semin are always the same guys, and the detractors are always the same. And they both fit a nice subset of fans...those who love numbers, and those who value their eyes.

I truly wonder if they also fall into the subset of those who did not play hockey (competitively) and those who did at some level.

Just wondering, in a super passive aggressive way.

Not competitive hockey, but competitive soccer, another sport where the advanced metrics can tell a completely different story about the game. Likewise advanced metrics are very new to soccer, can be highly misunderstood, and where we're still trying to nail down what the advanced numbers mean and what we can do with them like we have been doing with hockey the past few years.


Semin defender (usually) here.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Numbers don't lie, but your eyes and memories often do.

I remember the season Semin scored fewer goals than Chris Terry. I'm probably misremembering tho.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I don't understand this argument anymore. Semin has less goals than Brad Malone. He's played like ******* this season. Everyone knows it. Why the hell are we still debating it in any capacity? In the god damn draft talk thread of all places.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

I don't understand this argument anymore. Semin has less goals than Brad Malone. He's played like ******* this season. Everyone knows it. Why the hell are we still debating it in any capacity? In the god damn draft talk thread of all places.

The "Unjust Persecution" thread is too far back to put it in there.

Plus, we're debating whether we should move Semin at the draft for McDavid or Eichel.

Edit - and I don't think "everyone" knows it. I will convince them tho.