Solution to the LTIR Issue

[MarkT]

Yup, and I don’t really care how they get there as long as they make the change. I know people say, well it’s the rules and everyone can play the LTIR game, but that’s not really true. Everyone can’t use the LTIR and load up because players mostly choose where they want to be traded to because they have no trade lists and stuff.

In which case a team like Vegas or Panthers have an advantage because most players want to go to those cities, so it’s a disadvantage for other teams. And it’s not fair for teams with 80 mill spent have to go up against teams that spent 90 or 100 mill in the playoffs.

Yep. Plus you have to have a player making a significant salary go on LTIR at just the right time, but it can't be too bad of an injury or else you will actually lose them for the playoffs as well.

 

[Oilslick941611]

Do it like the NFL full injury disclosures, timelines and progress updates.

 

[Phillybean]

Using Stone as an example, the issue isn't he's injured, it is the fact that if he is too injured to play game 82, but not too injured to play game 1 it's suspicious. Given it is the team doctors signing off on it, just use a NHL doctor (or team of doctors) to assess on game 82. If the doctor feels he is healthy enough to play, he plays. If Vegas can't fit them under the cap, the player is ineligible to play until next season. If the doctor feels he is still to injured to play, that doctor and not the team doctors make the decision on when he can play. Maybe that is game 1. Maybe it's the 2nd or 3rd round. Maybe it's not at all. Take Stone's "wants" out of it. Players will always play thru injuries in the playoffs and say they are healthy enough to play.

 

[Guttersniped]

so you dont have a problem with what Vegas is doing? how is THAT not ruining the playoffs for everyone else?

If they took a chance and invested in a guy whos constantly injured and may be an issue come playoff time, thats their problem. But using a blantant loophole which permits them to add 1-2 star players for the playoffs when they normally could not is just as bad as the Devils trying to sign Kovalchuk at a cheaper AAV by front loading a contract.

Bettman did something about the Devils when they attempted to use a loophole, but for some reason turns a blind eye when Tampa and Vegas do something similar.

Again, I don’t want the solution to be the cap applying to the playoff roster.

The playoffs are 1. Awesome 2. A war of attrition

I accept the cap forcing capped-out top teams to ice sub-optimal rosters in the regular season, including have to ice less than 15 skaters, but that shit can’t happen in a playoff game.

(And villainous Vegas has played games with less than 15 skaters in the regular season due to cap issues.)

And how exactly are teams supposed to deal with injuries in the playoffs if you take expanded rosters away? Are they putting guys on the IR to get emergency call ups?

I just don’t want it. I want teams to ice the best teams.

This was was from the Atlantic:

Even if it doesn’t end up on the official agenda per se, the expectation what is that the league will be open to hearing from GMs on where they stand regarding the LTIR/salary-cap/playoff discussion. A couple of teams have already reached out to the league about it.

GMs discussed this two years ago at their meetings, with the idea from Holland to create some form of salary cap for the playoffs. The league at the time said it would give the topic some thought, but ultimately it decided a few months later that there was nothing to be done. If the league felt it was enough of a problem, which I don’t think it does, it would require the involvement of the NHL Players’ Association, because changing the cap rules is a CBA issue.

So there you go, Holland suggested this (IMO) terrible idea. That makes me have even less respect for him but YMMV.

LeBrun: 3-on-3 OT, coach's challenges, LTIR among topics up for discussion at NHL GMs meetings

There will also be a presentation by the NHL's player safety group, which has been in the spotlight more than in the past few years.

theathletic.com

 

[MarkT]

Using Stone as an example, the issue isn't he's injured, it is the fact that if he is too injured to play game 82, but not too injured to play game 1 it's suspicious. Given it is the team doctors signing off on it, just use a NHL doctor (or team of doctors) to assess on game 82. If the doctor feels he is healthy enough to play, he plays. If Vegas can't fit them under the cap, the player is ineligible to play until next season. If the doctor feels he is still to injured to play, that doctor and not the team doctors make the decision on when he can play. Maybe that is game 1. Maybe it's the 2nd or 3rd round. Maybe it's not at all. Take Stone's "wants" out of it. Players will always play thru injuries in the playoffs and say they are healthy enough to play.

What if, in this scenario, Stone tells this doctor he's in too much pain to play in game 82 and then in game 1 of the playoffs he says he feels much better?
I think you have a bit too much faith in doctors' ability to tell how injured someone is.

 

[the_fan]

Yep. Plus you have to have a player making a significant salary go on LTIR at just the right time, but it can't be too bad of an injury or else you will actually lose them for the playoffs as well.

There is a caveat though. For example, Avs currently have Landeskog on LTIR who hasn’t played for 2 seasons now, but he might come back sometime in this playoffs. It’s not gonna be game 1, but his return timeline falls somewhere in the 2nd round, but it’s not really certain that he will come back, or if he’s back he can stay healthy the remainder of the playoffs.

So in this case, if Landy comes back, that’s 7 mill added to the cap, and the Avs have already used that LTIR money to pick up players, so if Landeskog comes back, the Avs are gonna be over the cap. So maybe they do have to make a change where scratched players don’t count against the cap, this way if Landy comes back, Avs can scratch players and be cap compliant

 

[MarkT]

There is a caveat though. For example, Avs currently have Landeskog on LTIR who hasn’t played for 2 seasons now, but he might come back sometime in this playoffs. It’s not gonna be game 1, but his return timeline falls somewhere in the 2nd round, but it’s not really certain that he will come back, or if he’s back he can stay healthy the remainder of the playoffs.

So in this case, if Landy comes back, that’s 7 mill added to the cap, and the Avs have already used that LTIR money to pick up players, so if Landeskog comes back, the Avs are gonna be over the cap. So maybe they do have to make a change where scratched players don’t count against the cap, this way if Landy comes back, Avs can scratch players and be cap compliant

In my suggested rule, Landy would not be eligible for the playoffs because we've already spent his cap hit.

 

[andora]

Maybe avoid pretending you know what I think, when we both know you have no idea what I'm thinking and never will.

Or, ignore me if you've got that much angst about what I have to say.

You are right i should have added "projecting to the world" in my last post

 

[the_fan]

In my suggested rule, Landy would not be eligible for the playoffs because we've already spent his cap hit.

I’m actually ok with that too

 

[Panteras]

Simple, make it a true hard cap regular season and playoffs.

Or if you wanna keep the accrual bs, cool. But it all resets come game one of the playoffs and you gotta make your trades fit. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a team having to deal with 2 different parameters. Nobody is forcing teams to make trades, specially replacing big name with another big name if they’re injured. You are allowed to use players you have under contract. Or you can make trades that make you compliant whether in the regular season or the playoffs simple as. That’s why teams have doctors and give prognosis. If Stone is expected to come back sometime 1st or second round, then don’t trade for a guy that won’t fit once Stone returns. Or if you still want to, then cool, but then you’re gonna have to sit some other players.

Trading for someone and now being faced with the headaches of fitting that guy for the playoffs for the sake of parity is the price to pay. I don’t care that there’s a mechanism that allows you to fit him in the regular season and then it changes for the playoffs.

New parameters to work with for the playoffs. I mean that’s what happens anyway right? But at least this would be the only way to make it remotely fair. Come playoffs you’re gonna have to figure out how to either fit him or exclude him. This deals with the issue the same whether you have LTIR or not. If you accrued space to bring in a good player for the last half of the season, then good on you, come playoffs you’re gonna have to figure out how to accommodate him. If you got an LTIR and wanna fill that void with an equally valuable player then cool, but you’re gonna have to figure out how to fit them both once the injured player is activated. If that means you’re gonna have to scrap your whole 4th line with dudes in your ECHL farm team for the playoffs, then whoops…that’s the job of a GM, assess if shiny new toy is worth your entire 4th line….

Again, I see fundamentally nothing wrong with a mechanism allowing you to add X dude during the regular season because you accrued space and then come playoffs a new mechanism means you have to figure out how to make space for X dude.

You can deal with injuries by calling your next man up, or trading for someone that will make you cap compliant if you expect the injured player to be ready sometime in the playoffs. Or if the player is not expect to come back for the playoff then cool, go ahead, go trade for someone of equal cap.

 

[rojac]

I like how I addressed this idea in my post, and you two still suggested it. Which cap do you mean exactly? The one that until the playoffs also included players on IR and healthy scratches? So if it's roster on the ice, it's actually functionally a higher cap than the regular season. And if it's not just your on ice roster, you can't have black aces any more. Can you see how my solution is simpler and achieves the same result?



It doesn't matter if 100% of the owners don't see a problem. If enough fans see a problem, the owners should listen.

It's always cute when fans think they are important.

 

[MarkT]

It's always cute when fans think they are important.

I know they probably won't listen, but they should

 

[the_fan]

It's always cute when fans think they are important.

Without fans you gonna have this for couple of seasons then NHL will go bankrupt and shutdown…

 

[Kamus]

If a player is on LTIR from the trade deadline to the end of the regular season, they cannot play in the first round.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

NHL will be a dead league soon enough if they keep it up.

 

[rojac]

NHL will be a dead league soon enough if they keep it up.

I suspect that this issue matters very little t the vast majority of NHL fans.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

I suspect that this issue matters very little t the vast majority of NHL fans.

tanking playoff viewship says otherwise

 

[krutovsdonut]

the purpose of the ltir rule is to allow teams to replace injured players. if it's not intended to also allow a windfall overloaded playoff roster then a cap equivalent should be used during the playoffs.

the simple solution is that the cap should count in the playoffs but teams should be able to inactivate healthy players so they can activate ltir players for playoff cap compliance purposes. if vegas wants to play stone in a game then they have to designate enough salary who can't play in the game to balance the books.

so establish a playoff cap equivalency that is only for 20 athletes actually dressed in a game and is assessed as the regular season cap minus 3 x the buriable salary limit. that gives teams a slightly larger per capita cap to work with and some leeway to manage $2-3m ltir activations, but in a situation where you activate a $9m ltir player and you were up against the cap on game 82 someone is going to have to sit down.

simple and done.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

My solution is for everyone to start doing it. It's in the rules and allowed. Looking at your Oiler's!

This is the only way,
once the Oilers do it once, they will change the rule in a heartbeat.

They gonna have to give Boston Calgary or some teams some draft pick because that enough!!

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

tanking playoff viewship says otherwise

Is the tanking playoff viewership because of the perceived issues with LTIR, or because games were broadcast on TNT, with way too many late games getting bumped to TruTV?

 

[Chips]

Name an owner who thinks there is a problem.

Whoever’s team has poor cap management that year and wants to drag their opponents closer lol


I feel like the PA is gonna make an issue of “just sit someone”. Teams will still acquire players when injuries hit, then you’ll make healthy impact players (be they solid depth or stars) sit just because?


They look at this issue 2-3 times now and ultimately most of them don’t really care that much. Same rules for every team, competitive league etc. Some will do it better.

 

[Machinehead]

This doesn't require a solution.

The NHL already has the most restrictive cap in sports, and for some reason, people want to remove the only semblance of flexibility.

 

[Machinehead]

tanking playoff viewship says otherwise

Playoff viewership is tanking because very few of the games are competitive. Any game that's not tit for tat all the way through gets punted.

Like in all sports, load management is becoming king and there's very little you can do to enforce it not happening.

If teams fall behind early in playoff games nowadays, it's going to be 7-1 before long.

 

[Czechboy]

This is the only way,
once the Oilers do it once, they will change the rule in a heartbeat.

They gonna have to give Boston Calgary or some teams some draft pick because that enough!!

Exactly. Once Toronto or Edmonton do it.. the rules will change. So let's do it till then. I don't consider it cheating or circumventing. Winner's win.

Should've called up Campbell and put Kane on IR. I'm sure we could've got some nice pieces for 10 million heading into playoffs.

I say every time in the playoffs starts with 100 mill in cap! It only sucks when only one team is smart enough to do it. Some teams have 'nerds' doing this shit and other teams have 'gut instinct' and 'I played the game' doing it. Give me the nerds!! All of them.

 

[Hennessy]

I like it. It'll never be implemented, but I like it.