So why is Makarov not in the HHOF?

[VMBM]

It's an embarrassment that he isn't enshrined. The most important player on the 2nd most important team of the 1980s.

Disagreed. I watched the Soviets throughout the 1980s and IMO Fetisov was more important for the team than him.*

And why is the Soviet national team "the 2nd most important team" of the 1980s? What do you mean by 'importance'?

* looking at their whole career, Makarov might have been a hair better though

 

[Sanf]

The HHOF Committee is probably worried that inducting Makarov would open the doors to players like Mikhailov, Maltsev, Firsov, and Vasiliev. And then, what about the best of the Czechoslovaks and non-NHL Swedes?

By holding the line at the faces of the 1972 Summit Series and players with notable NHL accomplishments, they are able to keep the focus of the Hall from expanding.

This is how I see it. And to be honest this is the reason why I even sort of hope that they don´t select Makarov to HHOF.

Tretiak and Kharlamov were the faces of the Summit Series. Fetisov and Larionov were the faces of the new era. "Fought" their way to NHL. All of them represent something to North American hockey.

If they select Makarov in my eyes it would just mean that you have to be in Makarov level to be inducted. Somehow I like the current situation more. And it isn´t Hall Of Fames fault that IIHF haven´t been able to create more credible HOF of their own.

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

This is how I see it. And to be honest this is the reason why I even sort of hope that they don´t select Makarov to HHOF.

Tretiak and Kharlamov were the faces of the Summit Series. Fetisov and Larionov were the faces of the new era. "Fought" their way to NHL. All of them represent something to North American hockey.

If they select Makarov in my eyes it would just mean that you have to be in Makarov level to be inducted. Somehow I like the current situation more. And it isn´t Hall Of Fames fault that IIHF haven´t been able to create more credible HOF of their own.

What? I think you got all of this wrong, Makarov was the nr. 1 guy, the big star of the big red machine. What are you even talking about Larionov and Fetisov for? Great players but i think you base that on what they accomplished after their prime, as secondary role players in the NHL and not when they were skating circles around every national team in existence.

Saying Makarov is subpar compared to Larionov and Fetisov is just damn ridiculous. Here in Sweden i'm still told stories from my father and older people about how good Makarov was.

 

[Theokritos]

What? I think you got all of this wrong, Makarov was the nr. 1 guy, the big star of the big red machine. What are you even talking about Larionov and Fetisov for? Great players but i think you base that on what they accomplished after their prime, as secondary role players in the NHL and not when they were skating circles around every national team in existence.

Saying Makarov is subpar compared to Larionov and Fetisov is just damn ridiculous. Here in Sweden i'm still told stories from my father and older people about how good Makarov was.

You're missing the point. He didn't say Makarov was subpar, he was only talking about perception in North America. Larionov and Fetisov are the more popular names because they led the rebellion against Tikhonov and because of the team success they later had in the NHL. The became the "faces" and got the fanfare. Compared to that, Makarov flew under the radar after 1989. Not that he deserved it, literally no-one is saying he does.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Disagreed. I watched the Soviets throughout the 1980s and IMO Fetisov was more important for the team than him.*

And why is the Soviet national team "the 2nd most important team" of the 1980s? What do you mean by 'importance'?

* looking at their whole career, Makarov might have been a hair better though

Fetisov was also team captain, so even if they were equal players, one could argue that makes him more important.

Actually, given the fact that the USSR tended to produce better forwards than defensemen anyway, Fetisov was perhaps less replaceable

Anyway, this is getting a bit OT

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This is how I see it. And to be honest this is the reason why I even sort of hope that they don´t select Makarov to HHOF.

Tretiak and Kharlamov were the faces of the Summit Series. Fetisov and Larionov were the faces of the new era. "Fought" their way to NHL. All of them represent something to North American hockey.

If they select Makarov in my eyes it would just mean that you have to be in Makarov level to be inducted. Somehow I like the current situation more. And it isn´t Hall Of Fames fault that IIHF haven´t been able to create more credible HOF of their own.

Part of me wishes they never even inducted the four Soviets, and just stuck with being the North American Hockey Hall of Fame.

 

[Hobnobs]

Isn't he 45th in points-per-game among players who played in all six seasons from 1989-90 through 1995?

Sorry. Amongst players 31 or older.

 

[Fantomas]

You're missing the point. He didn't say Makarov was subpar, he was only talking about perception in North America. Larionov and Fetisov are the more popular names because they led the rebellion against Tikhonov and because of the team success they later had in the NHL. The became the "faces" and got the fanfare. Compared to that, Makarov flew under the radar after 1989. Not that he deserved it, literally no-one is saying he does.

Yes. Larionov and Fetisov were picked to the HHOF because they were soviet "dissidents". Their actual talents and abilities were secondary.

It was a political decision to induct them.

 

[Fantomas]

This is how I see it. And to be honest this is the reason why I even sort of hope that they don´t select Makarov to HHOF.

Tretiak and Kharlamov were the faces of the Summit Series. Fetisov and Larionov were the faces of the new era. "Fought" their way to NHL. All of them represent something to North American hockey.

These guys were the "faces", as you say, to the North American perception. Within North America, and its narratives, yes, Fetisov and Larionov were the "faces".

If one accepts that the HHOF should only operate within the North America political perception, then maybe they shouldn't induct Makarov.

However if one believes that the HHOF should induct players for either of the remaining two reasons - greatness/ability, or importance to the international hockey community - then Makarov would have to be strongly considered.

I agree with the posters who say that the HHOF should drop the sham and just market itself as the North American Hockey Hall of Fame.

 

[Theokritos]

Yes. Larionov and Fetisov were picked to the HHOF because they were soviet "dissidents". Their actual talents and abilities were secondary.

I think that's one side of the coin, but there is a second side: Fetisov and Larionov enjoyed late team success and ended up winning the Stanley Cup. That makes for a perfect feelgood story: some of the best players ever to challenge the NHL, they overcome the Soviet system and make their way to North America and in the end they get their names on the Cup. Straight out of a movie plot. I think Makarov would be in the Hall too if he had won the Cup, so it's not all just politics in the sense you put it IMHO.

 

[Sentinel]

This suspicion isn't based on anything substantial, is it?

Nothing at all. Just trying to explain this glaring omission, with his linemate and buddy being on the selection committee.

 

[Fantomas]

I think that's one side of the coin, but there is a second side: Fetisov and Larionov enjoyed late team success and ended up winning the Stanley Cup. That makes for a perfect feelgood story: some of the best players ever to challenge the NHL, they overcome the Soviet system and make their way to North America and in the end they get their names on the Cup. Straight out of a movie plot. I think Makarov would be in the Hall too if he had won the Cup, so it's not all just politics in the sense you put it IMHO.

The Stanley cups were certainly the icing on the cake. Nevertheless, this is definitely a political matter. Privileging Stanley Cups over the excellence of these players in their international careers is pure politics. It is a kind of America-centrism.

 

[Batis]

While making a concerted effort to include non-NHL European players would be my first choice, I also think that it would have been better had the HHOF just not inducted Kharlamov, Tretiak, Fetisov, and Larionov, and just officially became the North American Hockey Hall of Fame. The issue people have is that they pretend to be the HHOF for all of hockey, yet their non-NHL European inductions reek of tokenism.

I agree with this. In retrospect I almost wish that they never had inducted Kharlamov, Tretiak, Fetisov and Larionov and kept it a North American Hall Of Fame. But now that they have they really should make an effort to include the other deserving European players. I think that pretty much everyone here agrees that Makarov based on ability deserves to be in the Hall Of Fame. And based on the Top Wingers project it seems like many agrees that even if the Hall Of Fame would only have inducted say 60 players Makarov should be one of them based on ability. With Larionov long since inducted it becomes more and more ridiculous every year that Makarov gets passed over.

One thing that I have always found impressive about Makarov is that he actually seemed to thrive when he faced the best defencemen that North America had to offer (I feel the same about Krutov). In his prime Makarov often made some of the greatest defencemen of all time look very average in one against one situations. Just by going through some games that I have recently watched I found numerous examples of this. Considering that defencemen like Potvin, Robinson and Bourque had such enormous problems with handling prime Makarov it feels almost comical that he is on the outside looking in. Here are some of the examples I found.

Makarov turns Robinson inside out and scores a highlight reel goal. This would have been the game winning goal of the 1984 Canada Cup semifinal if Canada would not have scored their late equalizer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opoLFugxc0I&t=12m47s

Makarov stickhandles into the offensive zone and protects the puck from Bourque with both stickhandling and quick turns before he passes to Fetisov who scores. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq3CYwQit9s&t=29m40s

The "Holy Makarov goal". Makarov beats Potvin one against one and Golikov scores on the rebound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZbBBPFIr8Y&t=76m53s

Makarov skates past both Robinson and Potvin but Liut saves the shot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wfly1A00HOQ&t=8m9s

Makarov scores after beating Potvin one against one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jqlp2HgxMw&t=16m40s

Makarov scores another goal after beating Potvin one against one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1bWgUu2eE0&t=4m40s

Makarov puts on a stickhandling show against Langway. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igs0jztXBmM&t=89m52s

Makarov skates away from Potvin and scores on the backhand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aiNm_ljjyc&t=91m33s

Makarov scores a shorthanded goal after skating away from Bourque on a breakaway. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FeJ3lCpU6U&t=40m40s

Makarov dances past Bourque and Chelios. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by_X-DFnwVE&t=85m50s

Makarov protects the puck against Bourque with some great moves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z13Wt3Kv7Jg&t=34m50s

Makarov stickhandles through three players. One of them is Coffey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7NhdBJXE_k&t=7m25s

Makarov stickhandles past Coffey and goes to the outside of Robinson and shoots a backhand wide of the net. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEd6YbcNP9A&t=5m13s

Makarov gains the zone on the powerplay with some nifty stickhandling that leaves Bourque guessing which way he is going. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M9mqO5C4-4&t=19m33s

While penalty killing Makarov puts on a stickhandling show against Coffey, Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier before he leaves the puck to Krutov who scores. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeIsITzLz1s&t=64m12s

Makarov picks Robinsons pocket. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7gmRtuypQ4&t=77m31s

Makarov skates past Robinson and almost scores. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21AE0IXBl9A&t=43m47s

Makarov makes Langway back off with great stickhandling before he makes a great pass to Fetisov who gets a great chance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by_X-DFnwVE&t=77m44s

Makarov skates past Coffey and Larionov almost scores on the rebound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq3CYwQit9s&t=102m45s

Considering that Makarov did not play these defencemen multiple times every year it is pretty amazing how often he still made them look average. This is not a slight against these amazing defencemen but rather an indication of how incredibly skilled Makarov was in his prime and how he at his best was pretty much impossible to stop.

 

[Kshahdoo]

But even if he was the second best player on the planet in the 1980s the statement he was "the most dominant player in the world for a pretty long stretch" is obviously wrong.

He wasn't as effective as Gretzky, but to a lot of people taste, he was the most spectacular. Take stickhandling of Alexei Kovalev, add to it 2-way game of Fedorov, speed of Bure and grit of Kulemin, and you get a prime Makarov.

 

[Kshahdoo]

I agree with this. In retrospect I almost wish that they never had inducted Kharlamov, Tretiak, Fetisov and Larionov and kept it a North American Hall Of Fame. But now that they have they really should make an effort to include the other deserving European players. I think that pretty much everyone here agrees that Makarov based on ability deserves to be in the Hall Of Fame. And based on the Top Wingers project it seems like many agrees that even if the Hall Of Fame would only have inducted say 60 players Makarov should be one of them based on ability. With Larionov long since inducted it becomes more and more ridiculous every year that Makarov gets passed over.

One thing that I have always found impressive about Makarov is that he actually seemed to thrive when he faced the best defencemen that North America had to offer (I feel the same about Krutov). In his prime Makarov often made some of the greatest defencemen of all time look very average in one against one situations. Just by going through some games that I have recently watched I found numerous examples of this. Considering that defencemen like Potvin, Robinson and Bourque had such enormous problems with handling prime Makarov it feels almost comical that he is on the outside looking in. Here are some of the examples I found.

Makarov turns Robinson inside out and scores a highlight reel goal. This would have been the game winning goal of the 1984 Canada Cup semifinal if Canada would not have scored their late equalizer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opoLFugxc0I&t=12m47s

Makarov stickhandles into the offensive zone and protects the puck from Bourque with both stickhandling and quick turns before he passes to Fetisov who scores. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq3CYwQit9s&t=29m40s

The "Holy Makarov goal". Makarov beats Potvin one against one and Golikov scores on the rebound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZbBBPFIr8Y&t=76m53s

Makarov skates past both Robinson and Potvin but Liut saves the shot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wfly1A00HOQ&t=8m9s

Makarov scores after beating Potvin one against one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jqlp2HgxMw&t=16m40s

Makarov scores another goal after beating Potvin one against one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1bWgUu2eE0&t=4m40s

Makarov puts on a stickhandling show against Langway. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igs0jztXBmM&t=89m52s

Makarov skates away from Potvin and scores on the backhand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aiNm_ljjyc&t=91m33s

Makarov scores a shorthanded goal after skating away from Bourque on a breakaway. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FeJ3lCpU6U&t=40m40s

Makarov dances past Bourque and Chelios. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by_X-DFnwVE&t=85m50s

Makarov protects the puck against Bourque with some great moves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z13Wt3Kv7Jg&t=34m50s

Makarov stickhandles through three players. One of them is Coffey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7NhdBJXE_k&t=7m25s

Makarov stickhandles past Coffey and goes to the outside of Robinson and shoots a backhand wide of the net. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEd6YbcNP9A&t=5m13s

Makarov gains the zone on the powerplay with some nifty stickhandling that leaves Bourque guessing which way he is going. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M9mqO5C4-4&t=19m33s

While penalty killing Makarov puts on a stickhandling show against Coffey, Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier before he leaves the puck to Krutov who scores. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeIsITzLz1s&t=64m12s

Makarov picks Robinsons pocket. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7gmRtuypQ4&t=77m31s

Makarov skates past Robinson and almost scores. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21AE0IXBl9A&t=43m47s

Makarov makes Langway back off with great stickhandling before he makes a great pass to Fetisov who gets a great chance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by_X-DFnwVE&t=77m44s

Makarov skates past Coffey and Larionov almost scores on the rebound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq3CYwQit9s&t=102m45s

Considering that Makarov did not play these defencemen multiple times every year it is pretty amazing how often he still made them look average. This is not a slight against these amazing defencemen but rather an indication of how incredibly skilled Makarov was in his prime and how he at his best was pretty much impossible to stop.

Wow, just wow! Epic job, mate!

 

[Khomutov]

I agree with this. In retrospect I almost wish that they never had inducted Kharlamov, Tretiak, Fetisov and Larionov and kept it a North American Hall Of Fame. But now that they have they really should make an effort to include the other deserving European players. I think that pretty much everyone here agrees that Makarov based on ability deserves to be in the Hall Of Fame. And based on the Top Wingers project it seems like many agrees that even if the Hall Of Fame would only have inducted say 60 players Makarov should be one of them based on ability. With Larionov long since inducted it becomes more and more ridiculous every year that Makarov gets passed over.

One thing that I have always found impressive about Makarov is that he actually seemed to thrive when he faced the best defencemen that North America had to offer (I feel the same about Krutov). In his prime Makarov often made some of the greatest defencemen of all time look very average in one against one situations. Just by going through some games that I have recently watched I found numerous examples of this. Considering that defencemen like Potvin, Robinson and Bourque had such enormous problems with handling prime Makarov it feels almost comical that he is on the outside looking in. Here are some of the examples I found.

Makarov turns Robinson inside out and scores a highlight reel goal. This would have been the game winning goal of the 1984 Canada Cup semifinal if Canada would not have scored their late equalizer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opoLFugxc0I&t=12m47s

Makarov stickhandles into the offensive zone and protects the puck from Bourque with both stickhandling and quick turns before he passes to Fetisov who scores. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq3CYwQit9s&t=29m40s

The "Holy Makarov goal". Makarov beats Potvin one against one and Golikov scores on the rebound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZbBBPFIr8Y&t=76m53s

Makarov skates past both Robinson and Potvin but Liut saves the shot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wfly1A00HOQ&t=8m9s

Makarov scores after beating Potvin one against one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jqlp2HgxMw&t=16m40s

Makarov scores another goal after beating Potvin one against one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1bWgUu2eE0&t=4m40s

Makarov puts on a stickhandling show against Langway. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igs0jztXBmM&t=89m52s

Makarov skates away from Potvin and scores on the backhand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aiNm_ljjyc&t=91m33s

Makarov scores a shorthanded goal after skating away from Bourque on a breakaway. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FeJ3lCpU6U&t=40m40s

Makarov dances past Bourque and Chelios. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by_X-DFnwVE&t=85m50s

Makarov protects the puck against Bourque with some great moves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z13Wt3Kv7Jg&t=34m50s

Makarov stickhandles through three players. One of them is Coffey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7NhdBJXE_k&t=7m25s

Makarov stickhandles past Coffey and goes to the outside of Robinson and shoots a backhand wide of the net. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEd6YbcNP9A&t=5m13s

Makarov gains the zone on the powerplay with some nifty stickhandling that leaves Bourque guessing which way he is going. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M9mqO5C4-4&t=19m33s

While penalty killing Makarov puts on a stickhandling show against Coffey, Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier before he leaves the puck to Krutov who scores. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeIsITzLz1s&t=64m12s

Makarov picks Robinsons pocket. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7gmRtuypQ4&t=77m31s

Makarov skates past Robinson and almost scores. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21AE0IXBl9A&t=43m47s

Makarov makes Langway back off with great stickhandling before he makes a great pass to Fetisov who gets a great chance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by_X-DFnwVE&t=77m44s

Makarov skates past Coffey and Larionov almost scores on the rebound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq3CYwQit9s&t=102m45s

Considering that Makarov did not play these defencemen multiple times every year it is pretty amazing how often he still made them look average. This is not a slight against these amazing defencemen but rather an indication of how incredibly skilled Makarov was in his prime and how he at his best was pretty much impossible to stop.

Thanks, thats a great work! Look at his stickhandling, thats outstanding, i think the only russian player who is near him now, is Datsyuk.

 

[Theokritos]

Nothing at all. Just trying to explain this glaring omission, with his linemate and buddy being on the selection committee.

I think that's a bit unfair considering the HHOF's NA-centrism seems like a sufficient explanation that doesn't require any unsupported assumptions of a malicious agenda on part of Larionov. He might as well have been lobbying for Makarov for years without getting the majority that is required, who knows?

The Stanley cups were certainly the icing on the cake. Nevertheless, this is definitely a political matter. Privileging Stanley Cups over the excellence of these players in their international careers is pure politics. It is a kind of America-centrism.

If it's NA-centrism you mean when you write "politics" then I do agree with you.

He wasn't as effective as Gretzky, but to a lot of people taste, he was the most spectacular.

That's what makes Gretzky the greatest though. If we're going by who's the most spectacular then many would pick more than just one player ahead of Gretzky. Not that this is an argument against Makarov, we're talking about Wayne Gretzky after all.

In his prime Makarov often made some of the greatest defencemen of all time look very average in one against one situations. Just by going through some games that I have recently watched I found numerous examples of this. Considering that defencemen like Potvin, Robinson and Bourque had such enormous problems with handling prime Makarov it feels almost comical that he is on the outside looking in. Here are some of the examples I found.
...

Poetry in motion. A great collection, thanks for that!

 

[Batis]

Wow, just wow! Epic job, mate!

Thanks, thats a great work! Look at his stickhandling, thats outstanding, i think the only russian player who is near him now, is Datsyuk.

Poetry in motion. A great collection, thanks for that!

Thank you. Glad to see that the collection was appreciated.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Don't confuse the people on the HHOF committee for people with analytical skills.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Thank you. Glad to see that the collection was appreciated.

cheers

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

You're missing the point. He didn't say Makarov was subpar, he was only talking about perception in North America. Larionov and Fetisov are the more popular names because they led the rebellion against Tikhonov and because of the team success they later had in the NHL. The became the "faces" and got the fanfare. Compared to that, Makarov flew under the radar after 1989. Not that he deserved it, literally no-one is saying he does.

That's the point i'm trying to make. If the HOF inductions would've been based on ability and actual legacy Makarov a sure thing.

 

[Theokritos]

That's the point i'm trying to make. If the HOF inductions would've been based on ability and actual legacy Makarov a sure thing.

No-one here has been arguing otherwise.

 

[VanIslander]

The NHLHOF has thrown a few token inductions this way (pre-NHL) and that (a couple of Soviets, no Czechoslovakians, WHA's) but it is as always essentially an NHL-run NHL-honoring hall of fame. It just has pretentions to represent all of hockey history.

The absence of Marakov is a glaring example of it.

 

[johan f]

The " Potvin sucks" suddenly got a total different meaning....

 

[Killion]

The NHLHOF has thrown a few token inductions this way (pre-NHL) and that (a couple of Soviets, no Czechoslovakians, WHA's) but it is as always essentially an NHL-run NHL-honoring hall of fame. It just has pretentions to represent all of hockey history.

The absence of Marakov is a glaring example of it.

Yes. I really wish theyd come out with a Mission Statement. Defining criteria, parameters, borders. Save everyone a lot of grief & debate.