So what now?
- Thread starter Craig Davies
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Dubas is that posters god they do not accept the reality of the situation which is Kyle Dubas has not done a good enough job adding depth to the defense because if he had Marincin would not be ONE injury away from playing but he was and is because Kyle Dubas hasn't added enough quality defensive depth.
No Barrie and Ceci do not count because they won't be back.
Stephen
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- Feb 28, 2002
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Right now, Freddie's sitting at 4 strikes and 0 balls.
Brown Dog
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- Jun 23, 2007
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I really hope we've seen the last of Frederik Andersen in a Leaf uniform.
The Marner overpay was the headline event of last offseason, but it was as much the re-signing of Kerfoot, Kapanen, and Johnsson that necessitated the painful Marleau trade. I was on board with those moves at the time, but those guys were not difference-makers and probably should've just been traded.
This team misses Connor Brown.
The Marner overpay was the headline event of last offseason, but it was as much the re-signing of Kerfoot, Kapanen, and Johnsson that necessitated the painful Marleau trade. I was on board with those moves at the time, but those guys were not difference-makers and probably should've just been traded.
This team misses Connor Brown.
this is not a cohesive team. there is no heart. there is no desire to push through
CantLoseWithMatthews
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- Sep 28, 2015
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didn't this team set the record for coming back from a 3-0 deficit in the last 5 minutes of an elimination game a few days ago?
My assessment of the team hasn’t changed with this series as I thought they would lose to Columbus and even if they managed to get past CBJ I knew that this team was not competitive. Not even close.
The team is an absolute mess - and the players, Dubas, Lou, Babs and Shanahan all carry some of the blame. They sped up the re-build, when they absolutely should not have, and the wheels fell off. This simply is not a good team. They have not been a good team for the past 20 months. If they keep the big four they are at best a bubble team for he duration of Matthews’ contract and every good up and coming player will be a cap casualty. MLSE might be fine with that – as the income the big-4 generates might outweigh the extra income that might come from being a competitive team. Maybe Dubas changes his philosophy. Maybe they get rid of him in favour of someone who will do what needs to be done. Or, perhaps, they will simply allow Dubas to go down with this sinking ship and in the future Leafs’ fans can look back at what might have been.
So what would I do now?
Many still think this team is in win now mode. I completely disagree. I think that this team should be aiming to win in 3 and 4 years from now. The next two years the team should aim towards development, but that doesn’t mean that a run is out of the question. They were not in “win now” mode for the 2017 playoffs and that was easily their best showing.
So my game plan would start around assessing where the players they currently have, and the players they are thinking about acquiring, are going to be in 3 or 4 years. Do whatever it takes to ensure that the up and coming players are reaching their potential within 3 or 4 years. Make moves with a vision of a good all around properly balanced team 3 years from now. Trade 1 of the big-4 at minimum.
But most likely they will stay the course as Dubas likely doesn't have the rope to not improve next year. So the team will slowly get worse over the next 4 or 5 years and then they start a rebuild.
The team is an absolute mess - and the players, Dubas, Lou, Babs and Shanahan all carry some of the blame. They sped up the re-build, when they absolutely should not have, and the wheels fell off. This simply is not a good team. They have not been a good team for the past 20 months. If they keep the big four they are at best a bubble team for he duration of Matthews’ contract and every good up and coming player will be a cap casualty. MLSE might be fine with that – as the income the big-4 generates might outweigh the extra income that might come from being a competitive team. Maybe Dubas changes his philosophy. Maybe they get rid of him in favour of someone who will do what needs to be done. Or, perhaps, they will simply allow Dubas to go down with this sinking ship and in the future Leafs’ fans can look back at what might have been.
So what would I do now?
Many still think this team is in win now mode. I completely disagree. I think that this team should be aiming to win in 3 and 4 years from now. The next two years the team should aim towards development, but that doesn’t mean that a run is out of the question. They were not in “win now” mode for the 2017 playoffs and that was easily their best showing.
So my game plan would start around assessing where the players they currently have, and the players they are thinking about acquiring, are going to be in 3 or 4 years. Do whatever it takes to ensure that the up and coming players are reaching their potential within 3 or 4 years. Make moves with a vision of a good all around properly balanced team 3 years from now. Trade 1 of the big-4 at minimum.
But most likely they will stay the course as Dubas likely doesn't have the rope to not improve next year. So the team will slowly get worse over the next 4 or 5 years and then they start a rebuild.
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This team's problems can be greatly improved by getting some quality depth. Our depth this season were like lite versions of our star players that didn't add anything else (Kerfoot a Marner-lite, Kappenen/Johnson a Nylander-lite, Barrie a Rielly-lite-lite-lite).
Try and make a move for a more solid defender in the off season, potentially move out one of Kappened/Johnson and replace with promoted AHL depth, and sign some 2/3rd line and 4-5 D role players that can add a different element to the line up.
Give the core another shot at it before contemplating moving out one of the 4 (Marner or Nylander, preferably Marner). I think people will be very surprised what a full year with Keefe + some quality depth will do for this team.
Anyone saying to blow it up should basically be ignored. We have center pieces that can win the cup, it's time to go through experimentation like the Caps/Blues/Pens did for years before they won (and won again) to bring the right mix into light, even if it's not Dubas to do it. Unless a Seth Jones type trade pops up for Nylander/Marner, it would be a complete waste to trade them right now.
Try and make a move for a more solid defender in the off season, potentially move out one of Kappened/Johnson and replace with promoted AHL depth, and sign some 2/3rd line and 4-5 D role players that can add a different element to the line up.
Give the core another shot at it before contemplating moving out one of the 4 (Marner or Nylander, preferably Marner). I think people will be very surprised what a full year with Keefe + some quality depth will do for this team.
Anyone saying to blow it up should basically be ignored. We have center pieces that can win the cup, it's time to go through experimentation like the Caps/Blues/Pens did for years before they won (and won again) to bring the right mix into light, even if it's not Dubas to do it. Unless a Seth Jones type trade pops up for Nylander/Marner, it would be a complete waste to trade them right now.
The goal should be to get 1 or 2 cost controlled RD that can move the puck and be competent in their own zone. Names like PK Subban (half-retained by NJ), Damon Severson, and Josh Manson come to mind. I’m more than happy to trade Kapanen, Johnsson, and Dermott. Kerfoot only if needed, but I’d prefer to keep him as he’s a center. I also think we should be able to replace those wingers with cheap UFA options that will be undervalued, especially in a free agency market depressed by COVID. Also resign Spezza, and maybe sign a guy like Joe Thornton if he’s willing to chase a cup and be another 4th line depth guy for us, to provide leadership to our young core.
I only think about trading Andersen if we can get a proven starter to take his place (e.g. Robin Lehner).
I only think about trading Andersen if we can get a proven starter to take his place (e.g. Robin Lehner).
Leafs are soft as butter. Playoffs and barely anybody finishing their checks. Never took any notes from Ovechkin making sure defenseman paid the price everytime they dumped the puck in. CBJ never had to watch their backs because they know a skilled possession player would just try and tie them up... Defenseman play 30min a game and not even trying to wear them down in the playoffs... This ain't regular season.. that's why we never make it past the 1st round.
Bring in players that will finish their checks to the full extent next time. Sick of this around the boards, soft type of hockey.
Bring in players that will finish their checks to the full extent next time. Sick of this around the boards, soft type of hockey.
TheScandal89
Registered User
- Jun 26, 2016
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I like the idea but 8 mil to get a #2 RD, #3 C, #3 RW, and a #1 goalie? Its not possible to bring in another huge contract without letting one go. What are you gonna give Riley after next season.
It was a best of 5, not even a legitimate series. I don't know how anyone could watch that series and think that the Leaf's were not at least a coin-flip odds. We were the better team, lost a key player earlier on and couldn't get it done. Make the series longer and the odds just get better for them.
Not trying to give dumb excuses, because this team is running out of time to actually show up but I'd prefer we don't pull a David Clarkson era-esk move here because of a best of 5 series after a 4+ month hockey break during a global pandemic.
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You know if this wasn't the same excuse for the past 5 times we lost in the first round I would believe you, but enough of this "coin flip, could've went either way" talk..
it was "Washington was too good" or "we always have to face Boston" and now we got CBJ and still couldn't pass a team in a playoffs.. it's clear now that we aren't a playoff type of team.. and the proof from the past 5 years Trumps any and all other excuses... Soft possession hockey doesn't get you through the playoffs.. teams will adjust and find ways to shut you down like all the other years with this team.. it's clear you need to mix the possession with gritty dirty area goals and consistently wear them down game after game to implement your strategy... This team has a bunch of rich kids playing soft hockey and rely on lesser players to carry the grit while they take the most ice time... Enough excuses already.. all of them have been done and over with.. even the "we don't give our players icetime and Babs plays the 4th line 2minutes left".. you literally had Matthews -tavares- Marner loaded on the top line for almost all of game 5 and still couldn't come up with a goal.
No more excuses.. change the Strat and play with actual grit and heart in the playoffs!! Do what you do in the regular season to stay healthy, but come playoffs, pull up your boot straps and finish your damn CHECKS.
My plan would be very simple. 3 things:
1) Stay the course for the most part, but create some versatility with different styles of players. Don’t go all speed and skill everywhere create some grit on a few lines. The Leafs offense was stifled for 2 reasons; great goaltending and physicality. Heavy forechecking led to the injuries of both Jake Muzzin and Tyson Barrie. That forced weaker players to have to play or have to play more. Get guys who can do the same for your team.
2) UFA’s can walk unless they come back cheap like a Spezza. Any RFA’s or young players with cheaper higher potential replacements already available should be traded like Dermott, Johnsson, and possibly Kapanen.
3) Using those RFAs/young players, revamp the right side of the defense with cheap reliable defensive guys. Muzzin is currently the only Leaf defenseman I trust on the penalty kill. Find 2 more: one who is decent enough to skate with Rielly and one to skate with Muzzin which would drop Holl to 3 RD which is as high as he should ever be on an NHL roster.
Speaking with Wild fans, it sounds like a Dermott/Greenway swap could be possible, which would give the Leafs some grit on their 2nd or 3rd line while having Sandin available to replace Dermott as the 3 LD at a cheaper price.
Next I would try my damn hardest to sign Dylan Demelo. He is 27 which is close to the groups age range, is a good skating competitive defensive right handed d-man, who is coming off a $900k contract so hopefully a raise to $3 mil is enough to get him here. Not to mention he was a great complement to Chabot on the first pair and he somehow finished as a +2 on a terrible Sens team.
Then use a guy like AJ or Kappy to land another 2nd pair-ish defenseman. The misconception with the Leafs is that they need a top pairing guy and a 2nd pair guy. They don’t need that type of talent, they need guys who can handle those minutes. Your 1-2 don’t have to be on the same pair and neither do your 3-4. You can have your pairs as 1-3 and 2-4 and still be very effective. Look at St Louis last year. Pietrangelo and Parayko were their 1-2 but were on separate lines. Rielly and Muzzin are the 1-2 so find the 3-4 to play with them. (Hopefully Demelo can be the 4).
Assuming you use Kappy and picks or prospects to get the defenseman, trade Johnsson for picks and/or prospects to free cap space. Robertson is cheaper and has more potential and with the acquisition of Greenway, it would push Johnsson to the 4th line where he has no business making $3.4 mil.
Roll out the following lines:
Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Greenway-Tavares-Nylander
Robertson-Kerfoot-Mikheyev
Korshkov(?)-Engvall-Spezza
Rielly-trade/DeMelo
Muzzin-DeMelo/trade
Sandin-Holl
Anderson
Campbell
Is it perfect? No, but it maintains the Leafs potent offense while making the Leafs defense more structured and physical. All while remaining close to being cap compliant at $81.5 mil.
1) Stay the course for the most part, but create some versatility with different styles of players. Don’t go all speed and skill everywhere create some grit on a few lines. The Leafs offense was stifled for 2 reasons; great goaltending and physicality. Heavy forechecking led to the injuries of both Jake Muzzin and Tyson Barrie. That forced weaker players to have to play or have to play more. Get guys who can do the same for your team.
2) UFA’s can walk unless they come back cheap like a Spezza. Any RFA’s or young players with cheaper higher potential replacements already available should be traded like Dermott, Johnsson, and possibly Kapanen.
3) Using those RFAs/young players, revamp the right side of the defense with cheap reliable defensive guys. Muzzin is currently the only Leaf defenseman I trust on the penalty kill. Find 2 more: one who is decent enough to skate with Rielly and one to skate with Muzzin which would drop Holl to 3 RD which is as high as he should ever be on an NHL roster.
Speaking with Wild fans, it sounds like a Dermott/Greenway swap could be possible, which would give the Leafs some grit on their 2nd or 3rd line while having Sandin available to replace Dermott as the 3 LD at a cheaper price.
Next I would try my damn hardest to sign Dylan Demelo. He is 27 which is close to the groups age range, is a good skating competitive defensive right handed d-man, who is coming off a $900k contract so hopefully a raise to $3 mil is enough to get him here. Not to mention he was a great complement to Chabot on the first pair and he somehow finished as a +2 on a terrible Sens team.
Then use a guy like AJ or Kappy to land another 2nd pair-ish defenseman. The misconception with the Leafs is that they need a top pairing guy and a 2nd pair guy. They don’t need that type of talent, they need guys who can handle those minutes. Your 1-2 don’t have to be on the same pair and neither do your 3-4. You can have your pairs as 1-3 and 2-4 and still be very effective. Look at St Louis last year. Pietrangelo and Parayko were their 1-2 but were on separate lines. Rielly and Muzzin are the 1-2 so find the 3-4 to play with them. (Hopefully Demelo can be the 4).
Assuming you use Kappy and picks or prospects to get the defenseman, trade Johnsson for picks and/or prospects to free cap space. Robertson is cheaper and has more potential and with the acquisition of Greenway, it would push Johnsson to the 4th line where he has no business making $3.4 mil.
Roll out the following lines:
Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Greenway-Tavares-Nylander
Robertson-Kerfoot-Mikheyev
Korshkov(?)-Engvall-Spezza
Rielly-trade/DeMelo
Muzzin-DeMelo/trade
Sandin-Holl
Anderson
Campbell
Is it perfect? No, but it maintains the Leafs potent offense while making the Leafs defense more structured and physical. All while remaining close to being cap compliant at $81.5 mil.
We were not even close to this level of team back then. What happened 10 years ago has absolutely zero relevance to this group.
No, actually, 4 years ago, we were the worst team in the league. How quickly some forget. One inflated year in 2017-2018, driven by the backup goaltender and shootout, and suddenly everybody expects constant significant improvement every year, regardless of circumstances, and not only a dynasty, but an immediate dynasty way ahead of schedule.
There is no part of our team that is bad enough that we need to trade a Marner or a Nylander.
Nope, because my position is actually based on facts, not weak, unsupported media narratives.
No they didn't. We have never missed the playoffs under this core.
That is incorrect. We were 36-25-9, and then we lost a close 5 game series in the playoffs.
That is also incorrect. We lost to the NHL team the Carolina Hurricanes. Our longtime practice goalie was there not doing much for a portion of a game. Who cares.
No, that's exactly what it was. We were literally better at everything in that series except 5v5 goaltending.
There's nothing about our team that isn't "built for the playoffs".
That's not true at all. Prior to this year, essentially every match-up we've had is a conference final quality match-up, and we've taken them all to the limit with a worse team.
We did not miss the playoffs.
Our 2 best players haven't even hit their primes.
So basically you’re saying we should stand pat? That would mean we’re headed in the right direction then. I don’t have the numbers in front of me for when Keefe took over the reins. I remember they were world beaters for the first 20 games or so, but then things started leveling off, and when the season ended I believe they were basically a .500 team. And don’t blame it on injuries. Every team has to deal with that. We don’t have enough depth because we can’t afford to improve it. This is realistically what we are.
All things considered, I feel both Shanahan and Dubas (and probably Pridham as well) should be shown the door. Look at what our trajectory was before Tavares was signed, compared to where it seems to be headed now. To me it’s quite depressing. We were a team on the rise, with young players. Then we got greedy and sped up the process. It started with signing Marleau for 3 years at a $6 million cap hit (thank you Lou,not!!!),. Then we got Tavares. The problem I have with this is we already had Matthews who would be our #1 center. On top of that, we never got any hometown discounts on the other 3 signings.
I strongly believe you build a championship caliber team from the net out. I used to believe Andersen was the goalie we needed. Now I’m not so sure. He seems to always let in a weak goal at a crucial time.
Rielly and Muzzin are top 4 defencemen, but no one else is. The Barrie trade turned into a disaster. Holl and Dermott aren’t really top 4 dmen, at least not yet. Sandin, I believe, will be. Liljegren may as well.
It all boils down to too much money is being spent on 4 forwards, making it practically impossible to upgrade our defence and improve our forward depth.
Very Simple solution ... A Brand New Hockey Ops department filled with the best Hockey MEN money can buy - This experiment is an absolute failure.
The politician Shanny better figure this out quick or he will also pay the price - I am sure the sniveler is already lining up his next job behind the scenes.
The politician Shanny better figure this out quick or he will also pay the price - I am sure the sniveler is already lining up his next job behind the scenes.
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