So what happens if this team is actually bad?

[jason9090spezza]

Re: Hemsky, you are going to need to explain this "damage control" you have mentioned numerous times.

There are "some" people out there (not only saying about this forum, but also public in general), that keeps on justifying players/plays that are out right terrible.

Remember there was the time earlier in the season where people were bashing on Benn (and is been like that for him since than) and Dillon, because of their outrageous plays on the ice, but there were some people who were trying to justify Dillon using all sorts of "stats"? That is damage controlling.

I'm not going to justify ANY player that is playing bad or making mistakes, even if it's my favorite player (Spezza). That's why I've been saying that he needs some kind of support in order to truly flourish (he just isn't that one-man type of guy, and not many playmakers are that type). Ever since he lost Heatley, his best "partner" (aside from Alfredsson) has been Michalek. The rest are bunch of AHL call-ups/4th liners/aging veterans WAY past their primes. Although he has managed a point-per-game career, I had enough seeing him being treated in a "wrong" way. Seguin is one of those exceptional players that can still play a dominant game by his own, but Spezza isn't. How can a playmaker get points when being paired with bunch of players that can't finish? His ice time is also limited.

I'm not expecting Benn to be the next Heatley, but I just think it's better for the overall team if Benn gets paired with Spezza. If anyone wants to see a secondary scoring, Spezza needs a winger that can at least play around the same level as him.

 

[glovesave_35]

Seguin is one of those exceptional players that can still play a dominant game by his own...

So you've said, but you are actually just inferring rather than going off of any fact. Benn and Seguin have been tied at the hip literally the entire time Seguin has been in Dallas and coincidentally tearing the league up. You're severely understating Benn's significance in that duo.

 

[Satan]

So you've said, but you are actually just inferring rather than going off of any fact. Benn and Seguin have been tied at the hip literally the entire time Seguin has been in Dallas and coincidentally tearing the league up. You're severely understating Benn's significance in that duo.

100% agree. Why split up something that's working?

 

[Troy McClure]

25 points in 27 games is pretty good from a struggling winger. If you want to split up Benn and Seguin and put Benn with Spezza I'm fine with that because it might be the best use of assets. If you do though, you better put somebody who can win faceoffs with Seguin or his line will never start with the puck. Benn helps Seguin just as much as Seguin helps Benn. People see Seguin roll off a bunch of goals and all of a sudden he's a one man band. Benn's playmaking that leads to a lot of Seguin goals seems to be swept under the rug.

Really big exaggeration about faceoffs. If Benn was so critical to winning faceoffs, why has Seguin taken more? When Spezza was on their line, why did Spezza take most of the faceoffs?

Of course Benn helps Seguin, but Benn also finds himself playing second fiddle to Seguin because Benn is a shoot first winger playing with a shoot first center who also happens to be a better shooter and scorer. Right now, Spezza is passing to guys who can't shoot. The team either needs to put Spezza back with Seguin and Benn or find a winger for Spezza who can score, which is why the suggestion of Benn keeps coming up.

 

[glovesave_35]

If Benn was so critical to winning faceoffs, why has Seguin taken more?

9 more faceoffs is what you're hanging your hat on? Benn has won 3 more than Seguin and lost 12 fewer. Benn also took a hundred more draws last year than Seguin. The faceoffs are an obvious concern with him.

When Spezza was on their line, why did Spezza take most of the faceoffs?

Because Spezza is better at faceoffs than both Benn and Seguin.

Benn is a shoot first winger

He really isn't though. His playmaking was and continues to be an underrated part of his game. His offensive game is basically that of Modano who happens to play the wing and hit more than it is of a "shoot first scoring winger".

Right now, Spezza is passing to guys who can't shoot. The team either needs to put Spezza back with Seguin and Benn or find a winger for Spezza who can score, which is why the suggestion of Benn keeps coming up.

I really don't have a problem with putting Benn on Spezza's wing. The problem is that you then need to put a defensive presence who can win faceoffs with Seguin, which we really don't have. That would be Eakin if he were a faceoff ace but he's worse at it than Seguin, and is the single most annoying thing about Eakin's game for the type of player he is. Antoine Vermette would be the exact model of car I'd put with Seguin but we don't have one of those.

 

[Elysian]

9 more faceoffs is what you're hanging your hat on? Benn has won 3 more than Seguin and lost 12 fewer. Benn also took a hundred more draws last year than Seguin. The faceoffs are an obvious concern with him.



Because Spezza is better at faceoffs than both Benn and Seguin.




He really isn't though. His playmaking was and continues to be an underrated part of his game. His offensive game is basically that of Modano who happens to play the wing and hit more than it is of a "shoot first scoring winger".



I really don't have a problem with putting Benn on Spezza's wing. The problem is that you then need to put a defensive presence who can win faceoffs with Seguin, which we really don't have. That would be Eakin if he were a faceoff ace but he's worse at it than Seguin, and is the single most annoying thing about Eakin's game for the type of player he is. Antoine Vermette would be the exact model of car I'd put with Seguin but we don't have one of those.

Eakin's faceoff move from last season was banned, so that really hurt his faceoffs this year. He's also taken the 2nd most on the team at 405, more than Seguin and Benn combined... He may only win 46%, but he's also won more than Benn and Seguin combined.

 

[Troy McClure]

9 more faceoffs is what you're hanging your hat on? Benn has won 3 more than Seguin and lost 12 fewer. Benn also took a hundred more draws last year than Seguin. The faceoffs are an obvious concern with him.

Hanging my hat? You're the one making the bold claim about Seguin needing Benn to take faceoffs. Obviously, that's not the case. If your claim was true, Benn would take the majority of the faceoffs.

He really isn't though. His playmaking was and continues to be an underrated part of his game. His offensive game is basically that of Modano who happens to play the wing and hit more than it is of a "shoot first scoring winger".

Benn's best asset is his shot. I think putting his shot with Spezza would really help Spezza. Honestly, I thought I was complementing Benn, but I think you're trying to find reasons to be offended by anything I write with Benn's name mentioned.

I really don't have a problem with putting Benn on Spezza's wing. The problem is that you then need to put a defensive presence who can win faceoffs with Seguin, which we really don't have. That would be Eakin if he were a faceoff ace but he's worse at it than Seguin, and is the single most annoying thing about Eakin's game for the type of player he is. Antoine Vermette would be the exact model of car I'd put with Seguin but we don't have one of those.

They don't need to put a faceoff guy with Seguin, and the defensive presence thing would be equally true of the Benn-Spezza line.

 

[glovesave_35]

Hanging my hat? You're the one making the bold claim about Seguin needing Benn to take faceoffs. Obviously, that's not the case. If your claim was true, Benn would take the majority of the faceoffs.

It's not much of a bold claim when your 1st line LW takes a hundred more faceoffs than your 1st line stud center. Your point about Seguin having taken more this year is pointless given the virtually identical FOT totals. And in that quarter season sample Benn has been better. I'm not really out on a limb here.

Benn's best asset is his shot. I think putting his shot with Spezza would really help Spezza. Honestly, I thought I was complementing Benn, but I think you're trying to find reasons to be offended by anything I write with Benn's name mentioned.

You've been sarcastic about Benn for a good bit so I might have read too much into it but I do disagree that his shot is his best asset. His vision and read of plays developing is his best asset.

My point about Modano is that both he and Benn seem(ed) to have a good grasp on when they should shoot or pass. Benn has basically perfected the cross crease pass to Seguin on the LW about 12 feet from the goal and he does it through all kinds of traffic. That isn't a pass a "shooter" makes it's a pass that a good hockey player makes. If either of Benn or Seguin has the needle pointed in one direction regarding shooting vs. playmaking it is Seguin who is the shooter. His playmaking is reactionary (and quite good in that regard) but Benn sees plays develop better.

They don't need to put a faceoff guy with Seguin, and the defensive presence thing would be equally true of the Benn-Spezza line.

You are telling me that Tyler Seguin is equal defensively to Jamie Benn? Agree to disagree.

 

[glovesave_35]

Eakin's faceoff move from last season was banned, so that really hurt his faceoffs this year. He's also taken the 2nd most on the team at 405, more than Seguin and Benn combined... He may only win 46%, but he's also won more than Benn and Seguin combined.

The argument that FO% doesn't really matter seems odd. Even with Eakin's faceoff move legal last year he took about 450 more faceoffs than Benn and only won about 175 more. That gap in between is a **** ton of faceoff losses that mean the puck is controlled by the other team and Dallas, a poor defensive team all around, is forced to defend.

I thought you said just the other day that Eakin's defense and faceoff ability is really over-hyped around here.

 

[Elysian]

The argument that FO% doesn't really matter seems odd. Even with Eakin's faceoff move legal last year he took about 450 more faceoffs than Benn and only won about 175 more. That gap in between is a **** ton of faceoff losses that mean the puck is controlled by the other team and Dallas, a poor defensive team all around, is forced to defend.

I thought you said just the other day that Eakin's defense and faceoff ability is really over-hyped around here.

I never said that I think he's underrated around here.

 

[Mr Misty]

If you're scoring goals you aren't being scored on. If you take it into the offensive zone and immediately lose the puck you aren't doing anything to help the team. If you try to carry the puck out of the zone and you consistently lose the puck you're hurting your team. Hemsky is weak on the puck, Cole is weak on the puck, Spezza had two absolutely brutal giveaways in the last game. If they were at least scoring then it would be okay but they're not putting up points and they're hurting the team overall. They're also the weakest defensive line on the team by far.

If you want an example of a second line player with elite possession skills then look at Johnny Gaudreau. The puck is on his stick every time he's on the ice and he drives the play of his line. When he gets pushed off the puck he gets it back. He rarely cheats on his defensive responsibilities. His linemates have changed frequently due to injuries but he's been on the ice for only 13 goals against this year (the lowest among forwards on his team). Spezza has been on the ice for 31 (the most among forwards on the Stars). That's the difference that solid second line possession can make.

I use Gaudreau as an example because I think he and Spezza have a similar play style but Spezza hasn't been strong on the puck. I think Spezza has the potential to be much better but right now he has to carry his linemates and it's not working.

And if Cole and Hemskey had 10 more points each, the team would have 2 more wins and a goal difference of -6. The second line is a problem, but it isn't the problem.

 

[Troy McClure]

It's not much of a bold claim when your 1st line LW takes a hundred more faceoffs than your 1st line stud center. Your point about Seguin having taken more this year is pointless given the virtually identical FOT totals. And in that quarter season sample Benn has been better. I'm not really out on a limb here.

Wait, are you going back to last year's numbers? Last season, Benn piled up a lot more faceoffs because he took almost all of them early in season. As the season went along, Seguin took more and more to the point where Seguin took more faceoffs than Benn in the playoff series.

You've been sarcastic about Benn for a good bit so I might have read too much into it but I do disagree that his shot is his best asset. His vision and read of plays developing is his best asset.

My point about Modano is that both he and Benn seem(ed) to have a good grasp on when they should shoot or pass. Benn has basically perfected the cross crease pass to Seguin on the LW about 12 feet from the goal and he does it through all kinds of traffic. That isn't a pass a "shooter" makes it's a pass that a good hockey player makes. If either of Benn or Seguin has the needle pointed in one direction regarding shooting vs. playmaking it is Seguin who is the shooter. His playmaking is reactionary (and quite good in that regard) but Benn sees plays develop better.

I disagree. I see Seguin make better plays on a regular basis, but that isn't meant to be an insult to Benn.

You are telling me that Tyler Seguin is equal defensively to Jamie Benn? Agree to disagree.

I think they equally don't put in adequate effort in their own end. It's why Ruff felt the need to "fix" the line by putting Eakin with them. Benn's effort in his own end leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[dechire]

Wait, are you going back to last year's numbers? Last season, Benn piled up a lot more faceoffs because he took almost all of them early in season. As the season went along, Seguin took more and more to the point where Seguin took more faceoffs than Benn in the playoff series.


I disagree. I see Seguin make better plays on a regular basis, but that isn't meant to be an insult to Benn.


I think they equally don't put in adequate effort in their own end. It's why Ruff felt the need to "fix" the line by putting Eakin with them. Benn's effort in his own end leaves a lot to be desired.

If you're only talking about current numbers then in the past 5 games Seguin has taken 41 faceoffs winning 32% and Benn has taken 44 winning 50%. Benn was below 50% in 1 of the 5 games. Seguin was below 50% in all 5. Let's not pretend that Seguin doesn't completely ****ing suck at faceoffs right now. Can we afford to have Seguin winning less than 1/3 of all faceoffs for the top line ?

And the fact that you're criticizing Benn's defensive effort while ignoring that Seguin is much worse is certainly something

 

[Elysian]

If you're only talking about current numbers then in the past 5 games Seguin has taken 41 faceoffs winning 32% and Benn has taken 44 winning 50%. Benn was below 50% in 1 of the 5 games. Seguin was below 50% in all 5. Let's not pretend that Seguin doesn't completely ****ing suck at faceoffs right now. Can we afford to have Seguin winning less than 1/3 of all faceoffs for the top line ?

And the fact that you're criticizing Benn's defensive effort while ignoring that Seguin is much worse is certainly something

And Eakin is at 51% in the last 5 games. But he sucks at faceoffs

 

[Troy McClure]

And the fact that you're criticizing Benn's defensive effort while ignoring that Seguin is much worse is certainly something

Where did I ignore Seguin's defensive problems?

But this "much worse" thing is an overstatement. Benn isn't much better in his own end. When you see the top line stuck in their own end caught up in the other team's cycle, it's not just on Seguin. Benn is losing battles, getting out of position, and floating just as much as Seguin. I'm not happy with either guy, but I also don't know why Benn gets a free pass for his poor defensive play. Is it because he plays on the PK?

 

[MetalGodAOD*]

I'm with troy on this one. Benns defensive play this season has left a lot to be desired. Seguin and him are really no better than each other in their own zone.

 

[Elysian]

And Benn is literally only out on the PK in case he can get a breakaway, not because of his tremendous D.

 

[dechire]

And Eakin is at 51% in the last 5 games. But he sucks at faceoffs

What does Eakin have to do with Seguin's ability to carry the first line faceoff duties without Benn ? Unless you're referring to when someone claimed Eakin was better at faceoffs than Seguin and Benn and I corrected them because it was not and is still not true. Although he and Seguin are closer now than they were before.

I also don't know why Benn gets a free pass for his poor defensive play

And I wonder the same thing about Seguin. How often have you seen Seguin's defensive play criticized compared to Benn ? Lately everyone has been piling on Benn but they're silent on Seguin's lapses. I don't think Benn has been great. Seguin hasn't been great either. Only one of them is getting called out on here.

 

[Elysian]

What does Eakin have to do with Seguin's ability to carry the first line faceoff duties without Benn ? Unless you're referring to when someone claimed Eakin was better at faceoffs than Seguin and Benn and I corrected them because it was not and is still not true. Although he and Seguin are closer now than they were before.



And I wonder the same thing about Seguin. How often have you seen Seguin's defensive play criticized compared to Benn ? Lately everyone has been piling on Benn but they're silent on Seguin's lapses. I don't think Benn has been great. Seguin hasn't been great either. Only one of them is getting called out on here.

You told me that, and it's still false. They clearly trust Eakin to take more faceoffs than Benn and Seguin, there's a reason for that.

 

[Starry Knight]

Our entire team, with the exception of no one this year, is terrible at defense...

 

[dechire]

You told me that, and it's still false. They clearly trust Eakin to take more faceoffs than Benn and Seguin, there's a reason for that.

We have to agree to disagree on that (Eakin's 1st line faceoff stats were worse than Seguin I believe) but you're still agreeing with my overall point which is that Seguin can't be the only one taking faceoffs on his line.

 

[Troy McClure]

You told me that, and it's still false. They clearly trust Eakin to take more faceoffs than Benn and Seguin, there's a reason for that.

The reason is Eakin takes faceoffs on most penalty kills, but on the PP, Spezza takes almost all of the draws for the first unit because Benn is a winger and Seguin is often back on the point.

 

[dechire]

The reason is Eakin takes faceoffs on most penalty kills, but on the PP, Spezza takes almost all of the draws for the first unit because Benn is a winger and Seguin is often back on the point.

True but it's mostly because Seguin and Benn split their faceoffs. Seguin+Benn is 365. Eakin is 405. The difference is covered by his PK time and the games he spent as the 1st line center. He isn't "trusted" to take more faceoffs than them. He's just the only one on his line taking faceoffs so there's more of them. Fiddler has fewer faceoffs than Eakin and he's the 1st/2nd best on the team at faceoffs

 

[Elysian]

True but it's mostly because Seguin and Benn split their faceoffs. Seguin+Benn is 365. Eakin is 405. The difference is covered by his PK time and the games he spent as the 1st line center. He isn't "trusted" to take more faceoffs than them. He's just the only one on his line taking faceoffs so there's more of them. Fiddler has fewer faceoffs than Eakin and he's the 1st/2nd best on the team at faceoffs

Benn plays PK time. Eakin still takes more draws than the combined power of the top line, if they didn't trust him on the faceoff dot then his line wouldn't take so many draws. He takes key draws quite often. They don't put Fiddler on the dot quite as much because his line is the 4th line, plain and simple. His faceoffs were hurt this season because Crosby cried about his move, but he'll definitely figure it out, he's already trending upward.

 

[dechire]

Benn plays PK time. Eakin still takes more draws than the combined power of the top line, if they didn't trust him on the faceoff dot then his line wouldn't take so many draws. He takes key draws quite often. They don't put Fiddler on the dot quite as much because his line is the 4th line, plain and simple. His faceoffs were hurt this season because Crosby cried about his move, but he'll definitely figure it out, he's already trending upward.

Eakin is 37% on the PK. Maybe he should be trusted a little bit less. I've never said that Eakin sucks but come on. He has a lot of room for improvement and once again he has nothing to do with the discussion of whether Seguin could carry his line alone.