So what did Burke achieve?

[Daisy Jane]

Come on Daisy, do you believe Seguin, who was dumped by a Stanley Cup championship team, would have been able to put it together in Toronto, where we eat our young for the sport of it?


High end young talent over undetermined picks all day long during that phase of Toronto's organisational rebuild.

i have been consistent on the premise that is not simply "We didn't have Seguin/Hamilton so we totally would have been better." I never said that. Seguin would more than likely still would have been traded, and Hamilton gets to learn at the knee of whomever, not Chara, completely changing how he plays/reacts, whatever.

However. .. hm. okay. analogy time.

You just bought property and on the property is a condemned house. You bought it thinking it just needed to be renovated, but the property manager is like "No, you really should knock it down." You decide to take a look anyway and then go. "Nah. I think i'm just going to reinforce this building. so you devote all this time and money making this condemned house amazing. There are some delays, of course things keep collapsing but you finally think you've got it done. and the inspector comes around and goes. "Well no, now you've got a worse problem - because now you spent all this money, where as had you torn the house down earlier, you would have been ready to move in sooner."

that, is what the Leafs are to me.
Burke had a condemned house, and decided instead of knocking it down, he built it up, and Nonis decided to move right on in. had Burke, simply allowed the team to be bad, draft and develop properly - even if you had to trade pieces (like Seguin - then we get to decide the market, and the price).

 

[Daisy Jane]

YUp, he really "sucked" in VAN where he established their core for the better part o a decade. He "sucked" in ANA while he hoisted the cup, and he's really "sucking" in Alberta, where his Flames make the Oilers full on rebuild look like a pathetic joke.

you know we're buddies, but I've got to stop you right here.

In Vancouver, while they are good, and his drafting is good [the twins, Kessler... I think someone else important was a Burke draft pick], Burke never addressed the goaltending. He thought he was fine with Dan Cloutier. And if you look at the Canuck's farm system at the time - it wasn't anything to write home about.

A lot of Anaheim was built off the back of Bryan Murarry. Burke comes in, gets Pronger and S. Niedermayer (i can't remember if Teemu was Murarry or Burke. We'll give him to Burke] and horrah. Cup. [this is why I can't stand the refrain of "Burke didn't have time. Murarry didn't get time, and he doesn't even get credit for building Anaheim for mostly what it is].

Calgary is not Burke's Team
that team is still Sutter/Feaster built. the only thing Burke did was add Hartley and Treliving, and extended Stajan. I don't even think/ remember Burke made any significant roster changes. (if he did, I'll surely give him credit).

 

[Stephen]

He proved that a retool could not work. That dose of reality had to come sooner or later.

Teams like LA and St. Louis were once like us. Hopefully we can turn it around like they did.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

you know we're buddies, but I've got to stop you right here.

In Vancouver, while they are good, and his drafting is good [the twins, Kessler... I think someone else important was a Burke draft pick], Burke never addressed the goaltending. He thought he was fine with Dan Cloutier. And if you look at the Canuck's farm system at the time - it wasn't anything to write home about.

A lot of Anaheim was built off the back of Bryan Murarry. Burke comes in, gets Pronger and S. Niedermayer (i can't remember if Teemu was Murarry or Burke. We'll give him to Burke] and horrah. Cup. [this is why I can't stand the refrain of "Burke didn't have time. Murarry didn't get time, and he doesn't even get credit for building Anaheim for mostly what it is].

Calgary is not Burke's Team
that team is still Sutter/Feaster built. the only thing Burke did was add Hartley and Treliving, and extended Stajan. I don't even think/ remember Burke made any significant roster changes. (if he did, I'll surely give him credit).

I don't want to derail this thread, but I have to ask a relevant question. When Chicago won the cup, was this a Tallon team? Since the vast majority of heavy lifting was done by him. If you are consistent in your premise above. A smart GM like Bowman would receive little credit also. I just want to be sure your standards apply to all GM's that won cups and not just for Burke.

 

[Clark4Ever]

When all the dust settles and we have acquired all the assets for players that Burke acquired, and consider the value of the players he acquired that we will keep moving forward, I think it will be evident that the organization will be in a MUCH better place compared to when Burke was initially hired.

Burke inherited a roster and a prospect pool that was bereft of talent, and he was able to create magic with several of his trades. Sure, he made mistakes in the free agent market and misjudged the competitiveness of the team in his first season, but overall, I think the organization will benefit significantly in the future as a result of the moves he made during his tenure.

 

[leafs in five]

"he got us assets that we can use to rebuild"

"it costs assets to get them though"

"oh so you don't think that JVR is an asset???"

repeat

 

[ACC1224]

When all the dust settles and we have acquired all the assets for players that Burke acquired, and consider the value of the players he acquired that we will keep moving forward, I think it will be evident that the organization will be in a MUCH better place compared to when Burke was initially hired.

Burke inherited a roster and a prospect pool that was bereft of talent, and he was able to create magic with several of his trades. Sure, he made mistakes in the free agent market and misjudged the competitiveness of the team in his first season, but overall, I think the organization will benefit significantly in the future as a result of the moves he made during his tenure.

Absolutely and even more so had he not been prematurely let go.

 

[Stephen]

When all the dust settles and we have acquired all the assets for players that Burke acquired, and consider the value of the players he acquired that we will keep moving forward, I think it will be evident that the organization will be in a MUCH better place compared to when Burke was initially hired.

Burke inherited a roster and a prospect pool that was bereft of talent, and he was able to create magic with several of his trades. Sure, he made mistakes in the free agent market and misjudged the competitiveness of the team in his first season, but overall, I think the organization will benefit significantly in the future as a result of the moves he made during his tenure.

The NHL has an annual meeting where they actually let you have free talent for free. Seven years on from the Burke hire, they could have had some pretty good talent in the system even if they had set their team strategy to "autodraft" like in a fantasy league...

 

[leafs in five]

the prospect pool he assembled was what? Kadri, Rielly, Leivo, Percy, Finn, Biggs, Brown, McKegg, Hayes, Ross, Devane, D'amigo, Granberg?

for a team that finished 7th last, 2nd last, 9th last, 5th last during his tenure.

 

[silentbob37*]

its take 22 pages to say "Nothing"?

 

[BayStreetBully]

i have been consistent on the premise that is not simply "We didn't have Seguin/Hamilton so we totally would have been better." I never said that. Seguin would more than likely still would have been traded, and Hamilton gets to learn at the knee of whomever, not Chara, completely changing how he plays/reacts, whatever.

that, is what the Leafs are to me.
Burke had a condemned house, and decided instead of knocking it down, he built it up, and Nonis decided to move right on in. had Burke, simply allowed the team to be bad, draft and develop properly - even if you had to trade pieces (like Seguin - then we get to decide the market, and the price).

Going even further, we wouldn't even be trading Seguin, at 23 and one of the best players in the NHL today. He would be our #1 centre for the next decade, and he would be among the very best of what he does. All the Percys and Leivos and Finns and Kadris left behind by Burke won't make up for that.

 

[leafs in five]

its take 22 pages to say "Nothing"?

http://youtu.be/A6a6MLDwZJE?t=8s

 

[Daisy Jane]

I don't want to derail this thread, but I have to ask a relevant question. When Chicago won the cup, was this a Tallon team? Since the vast majority of heavy lifting was done by him. If you are consistent in your premise above. A smart GM like Bowman would receive little credit also. I just want to be sure your standards apply to all GM's that won cups and not just for Burke.

yes it was Tallon's team. to the point that most of the team was upset that he (Tallon)'s name wasn't going to be on the cup and they all chipped in and bought Tallon a ring. I have always been consistent on this matter. This is why i've been stressing that using the premise "_______ didn't get to finish what he started." isn't a legitimate claim, because a lot of GM's simply don't.

Let's reverse it, okay? In reverse-world, Leafs collapse in game seven - but Nonis makes better moves [still minimal] etc, and they actually duplicate (but are better)
and they make the eastern conference finals. this year, they're where the islanders are more or less, and they somehow make the the Finals, but lose. Is it Burke's team (because they're good?) or is it Nonis's team? I'd very adament that it is still very much Burke's team and he should be getting a tonne of respect and credit for putting the pieces together.

So when the team is on the verse of being put behind the woodshed and being salted and burned - Burke deserves a lot of "this is your doing." as well, not the "well. he set them up, and Nonis failed." Burke can't get praise when the core does well, but nothing but absolution when the team does not


(i know this is long -but i wanted to tie it into the thread)

 

[Durkin67]

i have been consistent on the premise that is not simply "We didn't have Seguin/Hamilton so we totally would have been better." I never said that. Seguin would more than likely still would have been traded, and Hamilton gets to learn at the knee of whomever, not Chara, completely changing how he plays/reacts, whatever.

However. .. hm. okay. analogy time.

You just bought property and on the property is a condemned house. You bought it thinking it just needed to be renovated, but the property manager is like "No, you really should knock it down." You decide to take a look anyway and then go. "Nah. I think i'm just going to reinforce this building. so you devote all this time and money making this condemned house amazing. There are some delays, of course things keep collapsing but you finally think you've got it done. and the inspector comes around and goes. "Well no, now you've got a worse problem - because now you spent all this money, where as had you torn the house down earlier, you would have been ready to move in sooner."

that, is what the Leafs are to me.
Burke had a condemned house, and decided instead of knocking it down, he built it up, and Nonis decided to move right on in. had Burke, simply allowed the team to be bad, draft and develop properly - even if you had to trade pieces (like Seguin - then we get to decide the market, and the price).

I guess I misinterpreted your "shh - we're not supposed to talk about that" comment. It certainly suggested to me that your perception was that Burke gaffed by taking an established NHL er with elite scoring talent over undetermined picks, which at best, would amount to another 4 years to groom properly, provided he was able to secure enough game ready talent to insulate them d=from being prematurely exposed in Toronto.

I submit that a more accurate analogy would be that the owner of the property and its subsequent chattle, as de-valued as it was sought a new property manager and charged same with the mandate of operating under a business as usual model withuto disturbing pre-existing neighbouring business arrangements (corporate clients, if you will). Said property manager (Burke) accepted the challenge provided he was permitted to leverage his expertise. Cracks in the foundation were deeper than originally estimated, and no amount of parging would make the the existing structure immediately suitable.

Over time, and after significant effort and energy to maintain some modicum of integrity, the owner plants a for sale sign on the lawn. The New owners decide they want a new property manager and the ultimate decision to unleash the wrecking ball is finally made, two years removed from the last time former P.M. darkened the door.

Was Burke without spot or blemish? Hell no. Did market value of the real estate he was charged custodial duties with ultimately increase? Hell to the yeah.

 

[Daisy Jane]

and again - I need to stress this point out here.

I feel a lot of people defending Burke is simply looking at one aspect of his tenure. the assets..

and if Burke was simply the GM that's i suppose the only thing you can. but he wasn't. He was the president of the organization, which basically means he was responsible for every single aspect of the Leafs moving forward

1: Burke's choices for management were not the best choices.
2: Burke's choices for scouting were not the best choices
3: Burke's choices for coaching were not the best choices.

so even if you look at his trading resume (which is solidly maybe a B - because of all the "win" there's a lot of "the hells?" mixed in there). if you take into account everything else, it's very fair to middling. For someone who said he wants to ensure he had the best of everything - he didn't really set out to get the best of everything.

 

[diceman934]

the prospect pool he assembled was what? Kadri, Rielly, Leivo, Percy, Finn, Biggs, Brown, McKegg, Hayes, Ross, Devane, D'amigo, Granberg?

for a team that finished 7th last, 2nd last, 9th last, 5th last during his tenure.

Not a lot considering where we finished and they give you 7 draft picks a year....for free!

How many of the above will become NHL regulars .....no one knows for sure but several will most likely not.... Biggs, McKegg, Hayes, Ross, Devane, D'amigo, all look like they will struggle to become NHL players. Finn is a project and Percy is not making huge strides. Granberg is going to get his opportunity...Levio and Brown look like they may be a NHL regular soon.

Over all not a very good record based on where we finished I say it is horrible. Trading picks to move up and to get Kessel hurt this team a lot more then the players drafted will help.

 

[diceman934]

I guess I misinterpreted your "shh - we're not supposed to talk about that" comment. It certainly suggested to me that your perception was that Burke gaffed by taking an established NHL er with elite scoring talent over undetermined picks, which at best, would amount to another 4 years to groom properly, provided he was able to secure enough game ready talent to insulate them d=from being prematurely exposed in Toronto.

I submit that a more accurate analogy would be that the owner of the property and its subsequent chattle, as de-valued as it was sought a new property manager and charged same with the mandate of operating under a business as usual model withuto disturbing pre-existing neighbouring business arrangements (corporate clients, if you will). Said property manager (Burke) accepted the challenge provided he was permitted to leverage his expertise. Cracks in the foundation were deeper than originally estimated, and no amount of parging would make the the existing structure immediately suitable.

Over time, and after significant effort and energy to maintain some modicum of integrity, the owner plants a for sale sign on the lawn. The New owners decide they want a new property manager and the ultimate decision to unleash the wrecking ball is finally made, two years removed from the last time former P.M. darkened the door.

Was Burke without spot or blemish? Hell no. Did market value of the real estate he was charged custodial duties with ultimately increase? Hell to the yeah.

Maybe but it was mortgaged to the hilt and now in default and now going into foreclosure.

 

[Durkin67]

you know we're buddies, but I've got to stop you right here.

In Vancouver, while they are good, and his drafting is good [the twins, Kessler... I think someone else important was a Burke draft pick], Burke never addressed the goaltending. He thought he was fine with Dan Cloutier. And if you look at the Canuck's farm system at the time - it wasn't anything to write home about.

A lot of Anaheim was built off the back of Bryan Murarry. Burke comes in, gets Pronger and S. Niedermayer (i can't remember if Teemu was Murarry or Burke. We'll give him to Burke] and horrah. Cup. [this is why I can't stand the refrain of "Burke didn't have time. Murarry didn't get time, and he doesn't even get credit for building Anaheim for mostly what it is].

Calgary is not Burke's Team
that team is still Sutter/Feaster built. the only thing Burke did was add Hartley and Treliving, and extended Stajan. I don't even think/ remember Burke made any significant roster changes. (if he did, I'll surely give him credit).

Yeah, we're buds and Ive got mad respect for you, but I'll never get how we can blame an individual for the shortcomings of one franchise under his control and not credit him for the successes of another.

I concur, goaltending has never been Burke's strongest suit. No argument there, but ultimately, he has been pretty key in laying the foundations for some very competitive franchises. Let's not pretend otherwise...

 

[Durkin67]

Maybe but it was mortgaged to the hilt and now in default and now going into foreclosure.

Considering the consortium bankrolling this whole mismanaged affair has more dollars than sense, I dont see how that could ever be the case...

 

[BayStreetBully]

I guess I misinterpreted your "shh - we're not supposed to talk about that" comment. It certainly suggested to me that your perception was that Burke gaffed by taking an established NHL er with elite scoring talent over undetermined picks, which at best, would amount to another 4 years to groom properly, provided he was able to secure enough game ready talent to insulate them d=from being prematurely exposed in Toronto.

I submit that a more accurate analogy would be that the owner of the property and its subsequent chattle, as de-valued as it was sought a new property manager and charged same with the mandate of operating under a business as usual model withuto disturbing pre-existing neighbouring business arrangements (corporate clients, if you will). Said property manager (Burke) accepted the challenge provided he was permitted to leverage his expertise. Cracks in the foundation were deeper than originally estimated, and no amount of parging would make the the existing structure immediately suitable.

Over time, and after significant effort and energy to maintain some modicum of integrity, the owner plants a for sale sign on the lawn. The New owners decide they want a new property manager and the ultimate decision to unleash the wrecking ball is finally made, two years removed from the last time former P.M. darkened the door.

Was Burke without spot or blemish? Hell no. Did market value of the real estate he was charged custodial duties with ultimately increase? Hell to the yeah.

You must be in law school. No one out of law school actually talks like that.

Here's a more accurate analogy: Burke had a broken roof and had he waited just one more week, would've been given all the shingles in the world to rebuild his roof because he had a coupon for free shingles. But he gave away the coupon before it could be used. But he did receive some free samples of paint, which he used for a nice paint job inside the house. The house is still in disrepair.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Yeah, we're buds and Ive got mad respect for you, but I'll never get how we can blame an individual for the shortcomings of one franchise under his control and not credit him for the successes of another.

I concur, goaltending has never been Burke's strongest suit. No argument there, but ultimately, he has been pretty key in laying the foundations for some very competitive franchises. Let's not pretend otherwise...

and i'm not.
but what's totally frustrating to me is that this is what people are doing. (and i'll be fair - on BOTH SIDES).

Side One: Burke was awesome because look! LOOK AT THE FOUNDATION!
[which I really, have to question if we're trading out most of the foundation - regardless if you want to play "but it's better than what he had" it just plays into the premise of - everyone can be traded. except for of course - Clarkson].

Side Two: Brian Burke was a bum because look! LOOK HOW HE TRADED TWO FIRSTS AND A SECOND . [which. i'm mad - but i've never once said that is the only/sole reason why i'm mad]

and whenever i bring up Side Three: all the other stuff that Burke was bad at - specifically here in Toronto - everyone doesn't want to discuss that. they just want to look the assets (because burke "wins" here) or at the Kessel trade (to which - I personally feel he fails here, but ideologically, I understand where Burke was thinking).

which ignores me because I'd actually like to take that aspect and discuss that everyone ignores it.

 

[Durkin67]

and again - I need to stress this point out here.

I feel a lot of people defending Burke is simply looking at one aspect of his tenure. the assets..

and if Burke was simply the GM that's i suppose the only thing you can. but he wasn't. He was the president of the organization, which basically means he was responsible for every single aspect of the Leafs moving forward

1: Burke's choices for management were not the best choices.
2: Burke's choices for scouting were not the best choices
3: Burke's choices for coaching were not the best choices.

so even if you look at his trading resume (which is solidly maybe a B - because of all the "win" there's a lot of "the hells?" mixed in there). if you take into account everything else, it's very fair to middling. For someone who said he wants to ensure he had the best of everything - he didn't really set out to get the best of everything.

What I look at is the overall blueprint, not the trades per se. Burke recognized that the entire organisation was barren of any NHL level talent. There were no good pieces anywhere in the system, other than Justin Pogge, who wilted under the pressure even faster than Jiri Tlusty did.

Whether Kessel was the right guy or not, the blueprint made excellent sense. Because there were no tangible building blocks to be found within the organisation, young, game ready NHL talent with high upside meant more to the organisation than draft picks, which would ultimately produce prospects that would be forced into responsibility above their abilities and experience level by virtue of the fact that there was no talent on hand to insulate them with and allow them to be groomed organically as they do in Detroit.

The management team Burke assembled was the first to have a professional background in the game.
A brain trust prevents it from becoming an absolute monopoly devoid of objectivity.

Wilson was extended because he had the team winning, and you dont head into the playoffs with the needless distraction of a lame duck coach.

Yup, his attempts at signing the Sedins here failed. Yup, Versteeg, a young, gifted Stanley Cup champion faltered, as many here have. Beauchemin did the same.And Mike Komisarek, a former 7th overall who wreaked havoc as a Hab, solid the linens, due largely in part to injury. Big Mike was brought in to recreate the Beauty and the beast pairing he was part of in MTL with Markov. He was there to make Kaberle safer. It failed. Who saw that coming? the lineup of teams wanting him was even deeper than that for Clarkson, another pretty in demand player who became a bum the day he donned the blue and white.

Carlyle was never the problem with this group.

There's a pronounced lack of heart that permeates the entire group, which has become a patchwork quillt of several regimes worth of tinkering...

 

[Durkin67]

You must be in law school. No one out of law school actually talks like that.

Here's a more accurate analogy: Burke had a broken roof and had he waited just one more week, would've been given all the shingles in the world to rebuild his roof because he had a coupon for free shingles. But he gave away the coupon before it could be used. But he did receive some free samples of paint, which he used for a nice paint job inside the house. The house is still in disrepair.

Nope, no law degree. I spent 20 years touring the world as a drummer before finishing high school actually.

I just happen to prefer quality discussion to the typical "that guy sucks, trade him for a roll of tape" tripe that often plagues these boards.

 

[diceman934]

What I look at is the overall blueprint, not the trades per se. Burke recognized that the entire organisation was barren of any NHL level talent. There were no good pieces anywhere in the system, other than Justin Pogge, who wilted under the pressure even faster than Jiri Tlusty did.

Whether Kessel was the right guy or not, the blueprint made excellent sense. Because there were no tangible building blocks to be found within the organisation, young, game ready NHL talent with high upside meant more to the organisation than draft picks, which would ultimately produce prospects that would be forced into responsibility above their abilities and experience level by virtue of the fact that there was no talent on hand to insulate them with and allow them to be groomed organically as they do in Detroit.

The management team Burke assembled was the first to have a professional background in the game.
A brain trust prevents it from becoming an absolute monopoly devoid of objectivity.

Wilson was extended because he had the team winning, and you dont head into the playoffs with the needless distraction of a lame duck coach.

Yup, his attempts at signing the Sedins here failed. Yup, Versteeg, a young, gifted Stanley Cup champion faltered, as many here have. Beauchemin did the same.And Mike Komisarek, a former 7th overall who wreaked havoc as a Hab, solid the linens, due largely in part to injury. Big Mike was brought in to recreate the Beauty and the beast pairing he was part of in MTL with Markov. He was there to make Kaberle safer. It failed. Who saw that coming? the lineup of teams wanting him was even deeper than that for Clarkson, another pretty in demand player who became a bum the day he donned the blue and white.

Carlyle was never the problem with this group.

There's a pronounced lack of heart that permeates the entire group, which has become a patchwork quillt of several regimes worth of tinkering...

Jiri Tlusty
Nikolay Kulemin
James Reimer
Korbinian Holzer
Viktor Stalberg
Leo Komarov
Anton Stralman
Carl Gunnarsson
Jimmy Hayes

All NHL players...

Burke was trying to prove he was smarter then everyone else and set out to prove it.....he failed and we have been dealing with the fallout since...

 

[diceman934]

Nope, no law degree. I spent 20 years touring the world as a drummer before finishing high school actually.

I just happen to prefer quality discussion to the typical "that guy sucks, trade him for a roll of tape" tripe that often plagues these boards.

Very cool!