So was Lindros the only one to hold out as a top level pick

[Killion]

... ahh, not so fast... yer Honor? I wish to enter the following into evidence.... www.coppernblue.com/2010/1/26/1270163/happy-birthday-wayne-the-21-year

... as you can see, Wayne Gretzky did indeed play the first (prophetically) 9.9 years of his career in the National Hockey League under that 21 year Personal Services Contract (that was re-negotiated once) and upon arrival in LA, Bruce McNall ripped it up, new Contract. Now, where were we Councillor?

...Seems that the legalities were covered from all perspectives.

Indeed. Believe we covered that ground Councillor. Your cab break down on the way to Court did it?

 

[Fugu]

.... true enough, but if he'd been playing by the NHL's rules he'd have played out his Junior career in the Soo and been eligible, made himself available for the NHL Draft & gone wherever he was selected (assume Montreal as they'd acquired the 1st pick from Colorado for his Draft eligibility year) yes?

But no, Wayne was anxious to play at a higher level, professionally, talked of going to Sweden. Wasnt happy playing Junior, not sure of the details exactly but he was having problems with a couple of teammates, just wasnt happy, anxious, impatient to play on a bigger stage, hurry up & get on with his life as is the wont of some, many in fact & specifically of his generation, the 70's. So through the mechanizations of Gus Badali who found a more than willing taker in Nelson Skalbania (desperate for anything to make a mark in Indy & elsewhere).... End run. Wayne Gretzky off the grid. As much in control off the ice as he was on it.

Eric Lindros & Rick Curran, quite conservative in comparison did play by the rules and exercised the only option they had within the bounds of procedure at that time. A player like Lindros who absolutely had Scouts drooling, just no thought whatsoever that he'd been born with a glass jaw, Humpty Dumpty Syndrome. Guy was a Cybernaut. Bulldozer. Scary good. Had it all going for him. Next Gordie Howe. I dont begrudge him for attempting to control his destiny. Thats a right and a privilege we should all have & enjoy. Idealistic but still. If your in demand you can make demands. Cant always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need.

Nooooo, Killy. All of us are somewhat guilty of speculating at this point, but what is known is that Gretzky wanted to (and apparently could) play with professionals as he was approaching 18 yrs of age. Why should he wait two years when there was a perfectly acceptable -- to him -- alternative to the NHL right now? While he ended up being underpaid in the decade that followed, at the time he signed, its' apparent he was the top paid pro hockey player in the world, no? [See Ogopogo's salary data from 1982, above.]

Secondly, BB and you are surmising that somehow Badali was the mastermind behind Skalbania, but the Wiki article does offer a citation, which unfortunately is a book:

Hunter, Douglas (1997). Champions: The Illustrated History of Hockey's Greatest Dynasties. Chicago: Triumph Books. ISBN 1-57243-213-6.

So we have an actual account saying this was Skalbania's doing, but you're off on the Badali tangent now.


@C58. I like that blog and blogger. However, he admits he's going from memory, and the newspaper links don't really shed light on who the originator of the personal services contract was in this case.

I'm speculating that given the money involved and how much he'd benefit (to even Wayne's detriment), it had to be Skalbania. If Badali was such a great player agent, he should have built something into the contract that wouldn't allow his player to be "sold" or have absolutely no out to the contract.

 

[Fugu]

Indeed. Believe we covered that ground Councillor. Your cab break down on the way to Court did it?

Your celebration is a bit premature.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Gus Badali

Nooooo, Killy. All of us are somewhat guilty of speculating at this point, but what is known is that Gretzky wanted to (and apparently could) play with professionals as he was approaching 18 yrs of age. Why should he wait two years when there was a perfectly acceptable -- to him -- alternative to the NHL right now? While he ended up being underpaid in the decade that followed, at the time he signed, its' apparent he was the top paid pro hockey player in the world, no? [See Ogopogo's salary data from 1982, above.]

Secondly, BB and you are surmising that somehow Badali was the mastermind behind Skalbania, but the Wiki article does offer a citation, which unfortunately is a book:

Hunter, Douglas (1997). Champions: The Illustrated History of Hockey's Greatest Dynasties. Chicago: Triumph Books. ISBN 1-57243-213-6.

So we have an actual account saying this was Skalbania's doing, but you're off on the Badali tangent now.


@C58. I like that blog and blogger. However, he admits he's going from memory, and the newspaper links don't really shed light on who the originator of the personal services contract was in this case.

I'm speculating that given the money involved and how much he'd benefit (to even Wayne's detriment), it had to be Skalbania. If Badali was such a great player agent, he should have built something into the contract that wouldn't allow his player to be "sold" or have absolutely no out to the contract.

Different tangent altogether. Gus Badali had and lost many great hockey players as clients.

Mike Barnett is another avenue to explore but that is another tangent.

 

[Killion]

Secondly, BB and you are surmising that somehow Badali was the mastermind behind Skalbania, but the Wiki article does offer a citation, which unfortunately is a book...

Yes, Badali & Barnett in presenting this option to Skalbania... who I believe may have been the Evil Spawn of Boris Badenov & Natasha Fatale, the real "Masterminds" behind young Nelsons' nefarious ruminations & plottings.... though not the author of Gretzkys' PSC. That was Bullwinkle & Rocky over at Sierra Sports Mgmnt.

Mike Barnett is another avenue to explore but that is another tangent.

Correct, and now entirely off-topic... pleaze people, let this be an end to this talk of Wayne Gretzky & his PSC... clearly Badger and I have proven unequivicobly.... unahquibb... unequivacablee... without a shadow of a doubt exactly what went down. Yes, move along please. Case closed.

 

[Fugu]

Yes, Badali & Barnett in presenting this option to Skalbania... who I believe may have been the Evil Spawn of Boris Badenov & Natasha Fatale, the real "Masterminds" behind young Nelsons' nefarious ruminations & plottings.... though not the author of Gretzkys' PSC. That was Bullwinkle & Rocky over at Sierra Sports Mgmnt.



Correct, and now entirely off-topic... pleaze people, let this be an end to this talk of Wayne Gretzky & his PSC... clearly Badger and I have proven unequivicobly.... unahquibb... unequivacablee... without a shadow of a doubt exactly what went down. Yes, move along please. Case closed.

I object.

Objection sustained.

 

[Theokritos]

I think given how much Skalbania had to gain, and that yes, as an owner of a WHA team, he'd have far more information available about the potential merger than a player agent.

Doesn't the Gustafsson issue mentioned above indicate otherwise? WHA GMs and owners not being in the know as much as one would expect?

 

[Killion]

Doesn't the Gustafsson issue mentioned above indicate otherwise? WHA GMs and owners not being in the know as much as one would expect?

Indeed it does. Entire mess of a situation in flux. An agent with his hands on the
pulse of both the WHA & the NHL in the perfect position to read the tea leaves.

Made himself a nice pot of Chinese Gunpowder.... Formosa Oolong.

 

[Fugu]

Doesn't the Gustafsson issue mentioned above indicate otherwise? WHA GMs and owners not being in the know as much as one would expect?

From BB's post, it only mentions GMs, not owners:

According to Oilers GM Larry Gordon the WHA didn't notify the member clubs' general managers of this directive until March of '79, after the merger was agreed upon. The Oilers signed Gustafsson after the December 31 cutoff date thus NHL President John Ziegler, after the Capitals presented this evidence to him, overruled the Oilers priority claim and transferred Gustafsson to the Capitals on Sept. 15, 1979. This was well after the expansion draft and the reclaim 'draft' so the Oilers had lost Gustafsson*and*the opportunity to reclaim someone else in his place.
...
OK, so the NHL issued a "Stop Signing Players" directive to the WHA, effective December 31, 1978. We know that the Oilers GM, Larry Gordon, claims that he and other WHA GMs never received this directive until months later. Yet, only the Oilers signed players after this "I know nuffing about day deadline." Gustafsson ' s signing was not recognized and he was awarded to the Caps. Kampurri's signing was ignored. Gretzky's signing resulted in a minor slap.

Also, thinking this through, the owners of the WHA teams didn't somehow surrender all power to someone to negotiate with the NHL on their behalf. I'd think they were getting updates and had to approve clauses and issues since they were the WHA, if none of the owners were part of a negotiating committee (which would seem odd). Several received franchise folding fees as well, which was probably a fairly contentious point of negotiations.

 

[Theokritos]

From BB's post, it only mentions GMs, not owners:

Do you believe it's possible the owners knew it but didn't tell their own GMs? Pocklington aware of the NHL deadline, but he lets Larry Gordon go ahead with the Gustafsson signing nevertheless?

 

[Fugu]

Do you believe it's possible the owners knew it but didn't tell their own GMs? Pocklington aware of the NHL deadline, but he lets Larry Gordon go ahead with the Gustafsson signing nevertheless?

Yes.

But again, the article only mentions GMs, not owners.

 

[Theokritos]

Yes.

But again, the article only mentions GMs, not owners.

Contemporary article:

"It would be extremely unbearable and unjust for us to lose the player," Larry Gordon, vice president of the Oilers said Friday. "The four WHA clubs were not made aware of that directive until March 23 and, by that time, we had an agreement with the player."

Seriously, Pocklington knows it but Gordon doesn't? Pocklington lets his own GM make contracts that he knows are bound to be void? Either that or Gordon straight up lied when he made the statement quoted above.

 

[Fugu]

Contemporary article:


Seriously, Pocklington knows it but Gordon doesn't? Pocklington lets his own GM make contracts that he knows are bound to be void? Either that or Gordon straight up lied when he made the statement quoted above.

I think we'll have to dig deeper. Who is the "WHA" at this point and who represents or speaks for them?

This is like our earlier debate about the "NHL" and member clubs. The NHL is the administrative arm of the clubs.

 

[Theokritos]

I think we'll have to dig deeper. Who is the "WHA" at this point and who represents or speaks for them?

This is like our earlier debate about the "NHL" and member clubs. The NHL is the administrative arm of the clubs.

Right. So here is what the blog article (linked in post #532) says:

At issue was a directive the NHL gave the WHA during the merger negotiations: the WHA clubs were to cease all contract negotiations with players effective December 31, 1978 in order to prevent them from stocking up on players in anticipation of the merger. According to Oilers GM Larry Gordon the WHA didn't notify the member clubs' general managers of this directive until March of '79, after the merger was agreed upon.

This account leaves us with the questions you brought up, and indeed it doesn't make sense to assume "the WHA" was informed but "the WHA clubs" weren't. In contract to that portrayal, the contemporary report (linked in post #562) neither mentions that the NHL "gave the WHA" a directive nor that the WHA failed to pass the info to its member clubs. The report simply states:

His signing by Edmonton was in violation of the NHL's recent plan of expansion, which included the Oilers, the Hartford Whalers, the Quebec Nordiques and the Winnipeg Jets. (...) Washington said Edmonton signed Gustafsson after a league directive froze all WHA contract negotiations effective Dec. 31, 1978, while expansion talks with WHA clubs were taking place.

Not only is this AP report a contemporary source, but it also strikes me as more plausible than the later interpretation offered in the blog. So here's what we learn if we strictly stick with the AP account (of course, if someone can trump that with better evidence, be my guest!): A NHL "directive froze WHA contract negotiations" etc. Well, the signings of Gustafsson and Kamppuri by the Oilers show that the "directive" did not in fact "freeze" WHA contract negotiations, and neither does it seem as if the WHA (league or other clubs) had any issue with those signings in March 1979. So where does that leave the "NHL directive"? It can't have been anything else than a decision by the NHL to not recognize WHA contracts signed after December 31, 1978. We don't know when that decision was made exactly. Maybe prior to December 31, maybe afterwards. Prior to March 23 in any case. But by all means it seems to have been a decision the NHL did not inform the WHA (league/clubs) about until March 1979.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Wha/nhl

^^^Key point is not whether there was a directive issued and who knew or did not know but the fact that the WHA teams still had the season to finish and a brand to protect going forward, hopefully into the NHL.

So sign a few players and live with the consequences.

 

[Killion]

^^^Key point is not whether there was a directive issued and who knew or did not know but the fact that the WHA teams still had the season to finish and a brand to protect going forward, hopefully into the NHL.

So sign a few players and live with the consequences.

Nice find Theo, and underscores the dysfunction & legal triangulations that were going on. And yes C58, the WHA as you know had launched an Anti-Trust suit against the NHL, so that was swinging over everyones head and had they won, carrying on business as usual post 1979/80 as the WHA the NHL would have paid a steep steep price indeed.... So. It cost the 4 WHA Teams $24M to receive Expansion Franchises, wasnt called a "Merger" as that too wouldve opened them up to further anti-trust issues (Monopolization) and of course the agreements signed by the WHA Teams punitive to say the least.... A real mess, trying to untangle who knew what when & who signed who when & so on. You also had the CAHA, the Drafts the 2 leagues held & age eligibility, reserve clause, competitive transfer payments to the Junior Clubs between the WHA & NHL gone poof, just all manner of issues. So yes, things in flux, uncertainty, and sign a few player and live with the consequences. Problem? Sorry. Never got that Memo about December 31st 1978 being the Sunset Date.... These guys, all of em, fast & loose.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

so does this change the conversation at all?

Eric Lindros has launched a $250,000 defamation lawsuit against former NHL referee Paul Stewart and the Huffington Post, after Stewart wrote a column for the online news website that allegedly made the former Philadelphia Flyers star forward look like a "********."

In documents filed in an Ontario court, Lindros says his reputation has been sullied after Stewart wrote about his poor on-ice relationship with Lindros, which was capped by an incident when Lindros allegedly tore up posters he was asked by Stewart to autograph for a charity.

Lindros's claims have not been proven in court and the Huffington Post has not filed a statement of defence. Lindros's lawyer Geoff Shaw said in an interview that Stewart has served him with a statement of defence, although it has not yet been been added to the public court record.

Originally, the claim sought $3 million in damages, but in an amended claim that has been issued, that amount was changed to $250,000.

<snip>

http://www.tsn.ca/lindros-files-lawsuit-against-former-referee-1.215863

 

[unknown33]

so does this change the conversation at all?

Could you elaborate why it should?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Could you elaborate why it should?

well, one strand of the conversation, albeit now buried upthread, is that we now feel less scorn toward lindros, or Schadenfreude at how his career ended, because in retrospect he was just a teenager and scorn should rather be directed towards his parents. that conversation, and the presumption that eric grew up and became a reasonable adult who conducts himself and treats others in reasonable adult ways, is at least coloured by this right?

as for whatever the hell's been going on in this thread for the last couple of pages, yeah obviously we're not talking about lindros anymore.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Was doing my goalie research, and came across a Montreal Gazette article (January 3, 1978) talking about the great Wayne Gretzky, and whether or not he would head to Sweden or the WHA:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Fr8DH2VBP9sC&dat=19780103&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

(Page 13)

Also a hilarious Family Circus on page 19.

 

[Killion]

Also a hilarious Family Circus on page 19.

... fond of tv dinners Doc?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

... fond of tv dinners Doc?

I just love their antics in general.

Although I may pick up a salisbury steak for tomorrow night post-hockey.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Direct Link

Was doing my goalie research, and came across a Montreal Gazette article (January 3, 1978) talking about the great Wayne Gretzky, and whether or not he would head to Sweden or the WHA:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Fr8DH2VBP9sC&dat=19780103&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

(Page 13)

Also a hilarious Family Circus on page 19.

So that viewers do not have to scroll 13 pages, a direct link:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=W8stAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UKEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3761,63909

Should get the good doctor hooked on poutine.

 

[Killion]

Should get the good doctor hooked on poutine.

.... indeed. along with World Famous Montreal Smoked Meat Sammiches from Schwartz's, Lesters' etc. eff the Swanson TV dinners Maing.

 

[BearFlag]

Eric Lindros and the draft

I was a fan (still am) of Eric Lindros when he was playing in the NHL but was too young to remember the whole draft saga well. From what I’ve read he reportedly did not want to go to Quebec City because it was a small non-performing market and made it clear from day one. Their management drafted him anyway (did not trade the pick) and the whole ordeal began.

Today Connor McDavid is an arguably equally lauded talent but said that he was willing to play anywhere. I think if Phoenix (similar non-performing small market) would have gotten the pick, Connor would have gone there (even if he didn’t want to). So that got me thinking, even though I really admire Eric Lindros, was he in the wrong for refusing to play for the Nordiques? Is the situation different between Connor’s draft compared to Eric’s draft? Are there any objective members (ie non-Flyers or non-Nordiques) that can chime in?