So, maybe we should at least ask the question. (Helm's contract)

[Winger98]

He's never scored 17 goals in his life. Another reason the 3.85 million was ridiculous.

hey, you missed my squiggly liney thing

but alright, then around 14 goals. But I'm sticking with the squiggly liney thing 28 points.

 

[Reddwit]

Are we seriously doing this after 3 games? Really?

How many times has Helm gone on hot streaks only to almost die off entirely for long periods at a time.

And to answer OPs question, he needs to at least score 15 goals and 35 points every year of his contract, something he has never done in his career, despite nearing 30.

 

[HockeyinHD]

He's never scored 17 goals in his life. Another reason the 3.85 million was ridiculous.

If Helm scores goals for the remaining 79 games at the rate he's scored the previous two seasons (.184 a game) he'll have 17 goals at the end of the year.

With no PP time.

 

[InjuredChoker]

If Helm scores goals for the remaining 79 games at the rate he's scored the previous two seasons (.184 a game) he'll have 17 goals at the end of the year.

With no PP time.

helm had powerplaytime the previous two seasons and had some goals there in 14-15.

scoring in bunches isn't unusual for helm (or most players) either. had 3 goals in 2 games 14-15 and another streak of 3 in 4 or 4 in 6. 3 goals in 4 games last season and then 3 goals in 3 games twice.

 

[HockeyinHD]

helm had powerplaytime the previous two seasons and had some goals there in 14-15.

Pedantry is the death of speech.

scoring in bunches isn't unusual for helm (or most players) either. had 3 goals in 2 games 14-15 and another streak of 3 in 4 or 4 in 6. 3 goals in 4 games last season and then 3 goals in 3 games twice.

Bunches?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Yes, scoring in bunches is a thing. I'm not sure if you are trying to make a point or you genuinely aren't aware of the concept.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Yes, scoring in bunches is a thing. I'm not sure if you are trying to make a point or you genuinely aren't aware of the concept.

I'm amused by the concept of 2 or 3 goals in 2 or 3 games as a 'bunch'.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I'm amused by the concept of 2 or 3 goals in 2 or 3 games as a 'bunch'.

Well when you score as few goals as Helm has, your bunches are understandably small.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Pedantry is the death of speech.

oooh the irony.

 

[Henkka]

Equal players like Helm at ES scoring from last 4-season averages:

Goals/60min

TJ Oshie 0.68 (4.175M)
Justin Abdelkader 0.68 (4.25M)
Kyle Turris 0.68 (3.5M)
TJ Oshie 0.68 (4.175M)
Derrick Brassard 0.67 (5.0M)
Patrick Marleau 0.67 (6.667M)
Nathan MacKinnon 0.67 (6.3M)
Darren Helm 0.67 (3.85M)
Patrik Berglund 0.67 (3.7M)
Jacob Silfverberg 0.66 (3.75M)
Ryan O'Reilly 0.66 (7.5M)
Claude Giroux 0.66 (8.275M)
Jussi Jokinen 0.66 (4.0M)
Jakub Voracek 0.66 (8.25M)
Tomas Plekanec 0.65 (6.0M caphit)
David Krejci 0.64 (7.25M caphit)
Ales Hemsky 0.64 (4.0M caphit)

Points/60min

Mikkel Boedker 1.46 (4.0M caphit)
Darren Helm 1.46 (3.85M caphit)
Milan Michalek 1.45 (4.0M caphit)
Justin Abdelkader 1.43 (4.25M caphit)
Patrik Berglund 1.43 (3.7M caphit)
Valtteri Filppula 1.42 (5.0M caphit)
Ryan Kesler 1.40 (6.875M caphit)
Nikolai Kulemin 1.39 (4.0M caphit)

Imo, there's nothing wrong on his ES scoring. Helm just isn't scoring on the PP, because that's not his job.

 

[Yemack]

Equal players like Helm at ES scoring from last 4-season averages:

Goals/60min

TJ Oshie 0.68 (4.175M)
Justin Abdelkader 0.68 (4.25M)
Kyle Turris 0.68 (3.5M)
TJ Oshie 0.68 (4.175M)
Derrick Brassard 0.67 (5.0M)
Patrick Marleau 0.67 (6.667M)
Nathan MacKinnon 0.67 (6.3M)
Darren Helm 0.67 (3.85M)
Patrik Berglund 0.67 (3.7M)
Jacob Silfverberg 0.66 (3.75M)
Ryan O'Reilly 0.66 (7.5M)
Claude Giroux 0.66 (8.275M)
Jussi Jokinen 0.66 (4.0M)
Jakub Voracek 0.66 (8.25M)
Tomas Plekanec 0.65 (6.0M caphit)
David Krejci 0.64 (7.25M caphit)
Ales Hemsky 0.64 (4.0M caphit)

Points/60min

Mikkel Boedker 1.46 (4.0M caphit)
Darren Helm 1.46 (3.85M caphit)
Milan Michalek 1.45 (4.0M caphit)
Justin Abdelkader 1.43 (4.25M caphit)
Patrik Berglund 1.43 (3.7M caphit)
Valtteri Filppula 1.42 (5.0M caphit)
Ryan Kesler 1.40 (6.875M caphit)
Nikolai Kulemin 1.39 (4.0M caphit)

Imo, there's nothing wrong on his ES scoring. Helm just isn't scoring on the PP, because that's not his job.

I guess people were wrong about him not being able to score goals.

Abby has some solid ES number too. Didnt know that.

 

[Dotter]

Equal players like Helm at ES scoring from last 4-season averages:

Goals/60min

TJ Oshie 0.68 (4.175M)
Justin Abdelkader 0.68 (4.25M)
Kyle Turris 0.68 (3.5M)
TJ Oshie 0.68 (4.175M)
Derrick Brassard 0.67 (5.0M)
Patrick Marleau 0.67 (6.667M)
Nathan MacKinnon 0.67 (6.3M)
Darren Helm 0.67 (3.85M)
Patrik Berglund 0.67 (3.7M)
Jacob Silfverberg 0.66 (3.75M)
Ryan O'Reilly 0.66 (7.5M)
Claude Giroux 0.66 (8.275M)
Jussi Jokinen 0.66 (4.0M)
Jakub Voracek 0.66 (8.25M)
Tomas Plekanec 0.65 (6.0M caphit)
David Krejci 0.64 (7.25M caphit)
Ales Hemsky 0.64 (4.0M caphit)

Points/60min

Mikkel Boedker 1.46 (4.0M caphit)
Darren Helm 1.46 (3.85M caphit)
Milan Michalek 1.45 (4.0M caphit)
Justin Abdelkader 1.43 (4.25M caphit)
Patrik Berglund 1.43 (3.7M caphit)
Valtteri Filppula 1.42 (5.0M caphit)
Ryan Kesler 1.40 (6.875M caphit)
Nikolai Kulemin 1.39 (4.0M caphit)

Imo, there's nothing wrong on his ES scoring. Helm just isn't scoring on the PP, because that's not his job.

Glad to see someone put this in perspective. I think it's easy for "us fans" to be out of touch with contracts and payscales as a whole. Everyone wants "steal of a lifetime" and HUGE "home team discounts". When really, the player's contract is, in fact, fair.

Way to go

 

[njx9]

Looks like Darren Helm was an incredible signing. I assume he'll lead us to the Cup any day now. Or maybe using box scores a) isn't the best way to measure Helm himself and b) is a really silly way of trying to show an equivalency between guys like MacKinnon and Giroux and Helm. It's further ridiculous to suggest that just because his dollars-to-points is in the same realm as some other severely underwhelming players, that he was a good signing or that he was a good use of money and roster space for the next 5 years.

 

[Dotter]

Looks like Darren Helm was an incredible signing. I assume he'll lead us to the Cup any day now. Or maybe using box scores a) isn't the best way to measure Helm himself and b) is a really silly way of trying to show an equivalency between guys like MacKinnon and Giroux and Helm. It's further ridiculous to suggest that just because his dollars-to-points is in the same realm as some other severely underwhelming players, that he was a good signing or that he was a good use of money and roster space for the next 5 years.

You're right, Helm isn't a prime Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

 

[Yemack]

Looks like Darren Helm was an incredible signing. I assume he'll lead us to the Cup any day now. Or maybe using box scores a) isn't the best way to measure Helm himself and b) is a really silly way of trying to show an equivalency between guys like MacKinnon and Giroux and Helm. It's further ridiculous to suggest that just because his dollars-to-points is in the same realm as some other severely underwhelming players, that he was a good signing or that he was a good use of money and roster space for the next 5 years.

Just because his cap could have used better, by some people's opinion, doesn't mean, this is not an useful chart in regards to this discussion. btw I agree that the chart is not the best way to measure his contribution. He certainly brings more to the team than that chart for sure.

I think you misinterpreted the chart saying we signed an incredible forward who will bring us the Cup.

 

[Henkka]

It's really tough to think who (of our prospects) would play those center minutes and that role currently as a replacement and in near future?

We have winger prospects like Mantha and Bertuzzi coming... Athanasiou is a question mark at center.

Imo, that's the REAL question in all Helm case... Kenny saw that there's nobody and extended him. I have to agree with him. Holland is not proably an idiot.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Glad to see someone put this in perspective. I think it's easy for "us fans" to be out of touch with contracts and payscales as a whole. Everyone wants "steal of a lifetime" and HUGE "home team discounts". When really, the player's contract is, in fact, fair.

Way to go

Ahhhh yes the world where PP points dont count

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Ahhhh yes the world where PP points dont count

It also ignores the length of the various contracts and the year in which they were signed. Both pretty important factors when comparing value.

 

[Yemack]

It also ignores the length of the various contracts and the year in which they were signed. Both pretty important factors when comparing value.

They are as important factors as UFA/RFA status when they signed.

Without considering whether his cap should have been better allocated to address other needs, I think this deal is pretty decent deal by itself considering everything. He brings quite a lot in package and his skillset will be better utilized with current system.

I dont see why you should try to downplay this deal in itself. I followed your argument this thread and I understand you dont like this deal because it doesn't give flexibility but I think that factor is influencing your opinion on this deal heavily.

 

[HockeyinHD]

oooh the irony.

I liked it.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Ahhhh yes the world where PP points dont count

They do count, but if one guy plays on the PP 4+ a night and the other guy plays on the PP ~1, that disparity is something which ought to be considered, yes? Also, in a straight comparison a PP point is less difficult to get than one at ES, so in terms of raw value ES scoring should be weighted somewhat more heavily.

If Helm gets the 4 and a half he got on the PP last night on a regular basis his total points will, obviously, increase... and probably in a dramatic fashion. If he gets the 30 seconds per he got over the first 5 his point totals will be, again obviously, relatively lower. While his level of play impacts whether that ultimately happens or not, usage rate and usage role in general are some things that can have a pretty heavy external impact on what a guy does on the scoresheet.

 

[DetroitRed]

I am surprised by how well Helm has started this season, even as someone who basically said "I like Helm" when they resigned him to a contract that has been controversial here. But as for liking Helm, I just feel like he has always done well considering the lines he has played on and the ice time he gets, and I think his speed should keep him relevant in today's NHL. I think people should at least respect his work ethic now that it's in full view and we see him decidedly not resting on his laurels.

I would be surprised if he continues at the same clip for most of the season, since, after all, he isn't a top line guy. So actually, if I were going to criticize Helm's resigning, I wouldn't knock his play. Instead, my criticism would begin with Ken Holland. I suppose you could also criticize Illitch since he pays Holland. But that's where my criticism would begin and end: Holland and Illitch. However, in the long and rich history of Ken Holland overpaying players, Helm is a rarity in that he, at least, pulls his own weight, and strikes me as someone who is a good teammate.

 

[19 for president]

Helm is a very useful NHL player and has been for most of his career. I've always liked him better as a bottom 6 center than as a top 6 winger, so I'm glad he has returned there. The issue with Helms contract us not the price but the length. He is maybe just slightly overpaid but he is one of the best 3rd line centers in the league.

The problem is that he is already in the prime of his career and is a speed player. Take away his speed and you lose most of his effectiveness. There is a good chance that at 35 he will not be remotely the same player. Now if the Winfo are smart and say deal him in or after year 3, the contract will be fine. The problem is that Holland refuses to deal players.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

They are as important factors as UFA/RFA status when they signed.

Without considering whether his cap should have been better allocated to address other needs, I think this deal is pretty decent deal by itself considering everything. He brings quite a lot in package and his skillset will be better utilized with current system.

I dont see why you should try to downplay this deal in itself. I followed your argument this thread and I understand you dont like this deal because it doesn't give flexibility but I think that factor is influencing your opinion on this deal heavily.

Looking at the deal in a vacuum it's not as bad. Though there's still risk he will be significantly overpaid in the back half of the contract as he gets older.

It would really be me just beating a dead horse at this point. But Helm's contract is not in a vacuum. It's a pretty clear indication that squeaking into the playoffs is more important than addressing the team's fundamental weaknesses.

 

[Dotter]

It's hard to remember what posters want to see Wings tank, and what fans want them to win. I want them to win. Therefore, I really like the Helm signing. And I love how this team has played now they are finally putting it together.